DTS-HD & Dolby Digital Plus

[Chetk]

I just wanted to throw this question out there:

What is the likelyhood that the C1 or C2 will be upgraded to support DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus? Blu-Ray & HD-DVD have announced (months ago) that these format will be supported.

Here's information on DTS-HD with a little more.

Here's information on Dolby Digital Plus on Blu-Ray & HD-DVD.

Also, I don't think that S/PDIF or optical digital cables have enough bandwidth to support full-bandwidth of either format. I'm not sure of the technical details and could use some explaining. Is HDMI about the only format that is likely to support these formats? If so, wouldn't the C1 & C2 need this to be a hardware expansion upgrade?

One last question: Is it even possible to do a firmware upgrade to the processors in the C1 & C2 to even support these formats? In other words, do the C1 or C2 even have potential to be powerful enough to run DTS-HD & Dolby Digital Plus?

I'm just trying to figure out if we're going to have to buy new processors to take advantage of DTS-HD & Dolby Digital Plus towards the end of this year or early next year.

Thanks!

[goldear]

It appears (for now) that HDMI may be the interface since as you say, S/PDIF just won't have the bandwidth. I have also heard that even if your SSP doesn't have the interface or decoding abilities, as long as it still has analog bypass (thankfully the Halo has 7.1), you should still be good to go since there will be many players with internal decoding.

[Chris D]

True, anytime a new video disc audio format has come out, players have also come out offering onboard decoding with analog outputs. It started with PCM, then AC-3, (Dolby Digital 5.1) DTS, DD EX, DTS ES, SACD, and DVD-A. We've already seen the next generation appear, with Windows Media High Definition, requiring WMVHD decoding in your processor or using analog outputs from your DVD player/computer for 7.1. HIGHLY likely that we'll be seeing HD players with analog outputs. But here's the kicker--since the C1/C2 and the majority of other processors only have one set of 5.1/7.1 inputs, you have to choose how to allocate them. WMVHD? SACD? DVD-A? Univeral with all of these? (except WMVHD, which I haven't found in any universal players) I do think it's highly likely that we'll see HD universal players eventually, being able to play EVERYTHING--current technology and soon to come HD formats. But they're not going to be available right off the bat most likely, and when they show up, I'd question their quality until a few generations have gone by for improvements.

SOOOOOO... what Parasound needs to do, IMHO, is add HDMI switching to the C1/C2 that would include passing of ALL digital signals, including SACD, DVD-A, and the soon-to-arrive HD formats. Decoding capability would have to be added to the C1/C2 for these formats, and if the player is a new Halo DVD player, it's going to have to be one capable mother.

[Chetk]

...since the C1/C2 and the majority of other processors only have one set of 5.1/7.1 inputs, you have to choose how to allocate them....But they're not going to be available right off the bat most likely, and when they show up, I'd question their quality until a few generations have gone by for improvements.

See, that's exactly my point. I would want the Halo to do the decoding, not the player. So I suppose my question is: Is it even physically possible for the processor to be firmware upgraded to handle these formats? The DACs in the players might suck compared to the DACs in the Halo.

SOOOOOO... what Parasound needs to do, IMHO, is add HDMI switching to the C1/C2 that would include passing of ALL digital signals, including SACD, DVD-A, and the soon-to-arrive HD formats. Decoding capability would have to be added to the C1/C2 for these formats...

I guess I'm not understanding how the C1 or C2 could physically handle HDMI switching. There's only ONE expansion port on the those receivers. Which may suffice for one HDMI input and one HDMI output. That would be fine for one HDMI device, but not if we had more than one (HD-DVD & Blu-Ray for example). Perhaps you mean one HDMI input switching between all of our current analog inputs?

[Peter Nielsen]

I guess I'm not understanding how the C1 or C2 could physically handle HDMI switching. There's only ONE expansion port on the those receivers. Which may suffice for one HDMI input and one HDMI output. That would be fine for one HDMI device, but not if we had more than one (HD-DVD & Blu-Ray for example). Perhaps you mean one HDMI input switching between all of our current analog inputs?

One possibility is that the HDMI switching (and additional options/connections) is implemented in a separate box. The C1/C2 expansion port would just add a new connector that provides a high bandwidth interface between the external box and the C1/C2...

Peter

[Chetk]

One possibility is that the HDMI switching (and additional options/connections) is implemented in a separate box. The C1/C2 expansion port would just add a new connector that provides a high bandwidth interface between the external box and the C1/C2...

Peter

It's funny that you mentioned that Peter. As soon as I was done hitting submit, I thought of that as well. Excellent suggestion. :T

I also did a little photoshopping before I came back to read your message. I suppose the expansion port could fit two HDMI inputs.



That would be cool. :T

Also note that the absolute ONLY way this would be of any use, would be if it receives both DTS-HD & Dolby Digital Plus AND converts the digital video to analog compontent out (although the latter seems less likely.) My HDTV doesn't have DVI or HDMI. :cry:

[Chetk]

Peter,

You're talking about something like this:

[goldear]

Chet...I think you need to talk to Schram about getting a job with them. I like your designs On a side note, this is exactly what Proceed did with their AVPII as they added component video switching/scaling...and it was a nice design. The AVP actually sat on top of the video processor, which was only a couple inches thick. The good news is, Parasound actually has a history of making add-on boxes to their original designs...whether is was the CSE6.1 or DD/DTS. One hopes the tradition continues.

[Rags]

Chet - you clearly have too much time on your hands but I like it !! :T

[nicholtl]

Sweet photoshop job! That's some skills you got, bro!

[Chris D]

Chet, only 6 HDMI inputs? But I have 7 HDMI video players! First, you reached the exact solution, in that any digital video switching of any sort would likely be via an outboard processor. It would be connected either through the expansion port via a new connector, or through the existing RS-232 port. I don't know if RS-232 can pas sufficient bandwith for digital audio or not. (or video, but I see video as less likely to be transmitted into the C1/C2, all video switching would likely be done only on the outboard processor)

On that note, I see it as not very likely that any Halo upgrades would "downconvert" the signal from digital to be passed via component video (or others) Typically, when new video connections are created, they pass to the same connection, not back to an older format. This would be like somebody saying that they need component video to "downconvert" to S-video because their TV only has S-video. That capability may exist for some people, but it's not going to be largely in demand.

I'll also point out that if Parasound does add HDMI capability, it MUST do more than just video switching. I've got video switching right now via my Gefen HDMI switcher. (which should arrive any day now) It must also pass audio over HDMI, and really, it's got to pass more than just DD and DTS, because you can get that already with optical/coax. I really think to make HDMI worth it for a Parasound upgrade, it's going to have to pass PCM, DD, DTS, SACD, and DVD-A as a minimum. Ultimately, I want to see (or maybe even need to have) in addition to those also Windows Media High Definition and all new HD A/V formats. This also means that Parasound has to add the decoding capability for these to the C1/C2.

Big picture, what I want is for a TRULY universal DVD player, (preferably Halo) including all upcoming HD formats, to connect via one HDMI cable to a Halo HDMI switcher, that would switch between HDMI inputs AND decode all digital audio with the C1/C2. Of course, the sticky point right now is that HDMI protocols are highly in flux and keep getting upgraded for new capabilities.

That's the goal. Let's wait and see.

[bhuskins]

Classic Chet...

Brent Huskins

[Peter Nielsen]

You're talking about something like this

Yes, but I don't think the external box can be connected to the C1/C2 with HDMI. I would think an implementation specific data bus would be required in order to provide full functionality.

Delete the HDMI connectors on the C1 expansion port and replace it with a unique wide bus multi-pin data connector (for instance one of those 68 pin high-density external LVD SCSI connectors found on our high-end desktop computers). Then add one of these connectors to the expansion unit too, and we're all set (Actually, add TWO of them on the expansion unit. One for in, and one for out - like the trigger connectors. This would give the possibility to daisy-chain several expansion boxes for those that don't think 8 HDMI inputs is enough :B )

Peter

[Chris D]

Peter, overkill is KING!!!

[Chetk]

Alright, so now that we've figured out the logistics of HDMI for Parasound, let's contemplate back on DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus.

If the HDMI solution works, would it be possible to program the current internal processor of the C1 or C2 to decode DTS-HD and/or Dolby Digital Plus?

I mean, let's face it, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will be here within months. Does anybody see Parasound offering an HDMI solution and firmware upgrade to allow the C1 or C2 to decode these formats by the time the new HD discs arrive?

[Chris D]

Realistically? Yes, I do. I do see Parasound possibly adding decoding for SACD, DVD-A, and all soon-to-come HD audio formats. To be honest, I don't know if they'll add WMA-HD. You never know, though.

[Chetk]

To be honest, I don't know if they'll add WMA-HD. You never know, though.

Chris, I don't know that I see them adding WMA-HD since they'd have to pay royalties to Microsoft for that.

I do have a question for you though. I have an HTPC right now. I can watch DVDs at 1080i and I can play WMVHD at 1080i as well. With normal DVDs, I use the Creative Audigy 4 Pro to pass the Digital Optical 5.1 out to the C1. It works great. However, I haven't tried (yet) to hook up the WMVHD audio to the C1. What kind of audio do the WMVHD discs have? I currently own Step Into Liquid and something about Coral Reefs.

[Chetk]

I just asked Bob MacDonald at Parasound what he thought about the likelyhood of that happening. Here was his reply:

Chet,

This sort of upgrade would require a major overhaul of both the DSP engine and rear panel. I don't believe coax or optical cables will support this type of audio. This will require HDMI connection to your DSP. This large of an upgrade would probably cost as much as a new unit. So, I don't see something like this happening any time soon.

-Bob

[nicholtl]

......

[Chris D]

Chet, what is "that"? WMV HD? or any of the digital audio formats we're talking about via HDMI? Because really, I see negligible benefit in just adding HDMI video switching without audio capability. (or with only PCM/DD/DTS capability, which I already have via coax/optical)

As for WMV-HD, I've tried it out on my laptop I use in my theater. The video's great, but here's the sticky point--it's a proprietary 5.1 channel surround audio format, like DD or DTS. So you either have to have decoding capability on your computer with 5.1 analog outputs, or pass it via SPDIF (which Windows Media Player DOES allow as an option) to a processor that can decode it. Well, Parasound for sure doesn't have the decoding capability, and I don't know of any processor that does. My laptop for sure doesn't have 5.1 analog outputs, and even if it did, I'd rather use my Parasound 7.1 inputs for SACD and DVD-A than for the very rare WMV-HD. So when I play my WMV-HD discs on my computer, of which I have about 5, the video is stunning, but the best I can do is pass a downconverted stereo PCM signal via SPDIF to my C1. So you take your pick--either you have SD video, upconverted if you choose, with real nice 5.1/7.1 surround sound, or beautiful crystal clear HD video with mediocre stereo sound.

I haven't played WMV-HD since the Halo update, so I'll try applying DPLIIx to it and see how it turns out.

[Chetk]

Chet, what is "that"?

Sorry, when I originally wrote my message above, I thought someone might ask me what "that" actually was. Here is my question to him:

Hi Bob,

You had responded to a previous service request, so I thought I'd send this question straight to you instead of using the generic service@parasound.com e-mail address. Hope you don't mind.

I'm wondering if there are plans or if Parasound is currently working with DTS and/or Dolby Labs to add DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus decoding to the C1/C2?

With DTS-HD's ability to allow a loss-less stream, it sure would be nice if the C1 could decode it. Especially when HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs start coming out later this year.

Here is some more information on DTS-HD and Dolby Digital Plus:

DTS-HD Press Release:

http://www.dtsonline.com/company/press/press-article.php?ID=267941252&yID=2004&cID=1

More DTS HD Info:

http://www.dtsonline.com/consumer/dtshd.php

Dolby Digital Plus Press Release:
http://investor.dolby.com/ReleaseDet...leaseID=155696

Home Theater Forum (Parasound Titled Forum) Thread where this topic is debated:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13006

So, what are the chances we'll see the C1 or C2 decoding these formats within the year?

Thanks,

Chet K.
C1 Owner

So, it looks to me like it ain't gonna happen. :M

[Chetk]

Chris,

I actually do have the Creative Audigy 4 Pro which does have 5.1 analog out. So, now that I know the WMV-HD does have a 5.1 sound track, I should be able to hook up the sound card to the analog inputs of the C1. I just wasn't sure if I could do S/PDIF. Now, I know I can't.

Going back to the DTS-HD and DDP debate, on this official DTS-HD page, it states that "...as a mandatory technology in the next generation standards, a DTS decoder will be built into every HD-DVD or Blu-ray Disc player." Does this mean that I can hook up the analog 5.1 outputs on the respective players to the analog inputs on the C1 and get a higher quality sound than I would with standard S/PDIF DTS or DD?

I'm confused as to whether the DTS-HD decoded by the player and sent analog to the processor would be better quality than standard digital DTS (non-HD - like we currently have in todays DVD players.)... :huh:

[goldear]

I would hope that running the analog-outs to the Halo would be better than standard DTS. The one thing I have heard is that even without the decoder built-in to the processor, you may still be able to receive DTS-HD/DD+ through S/PDIF...although it will be bandwidth limited or lower rez. Even this, however, should still be better than standard DTS. At least the Halo has a 7.1 bypass since there is word that these new formats will be doing 7.1 discrete.

Chris: "Because really, I see negligible benefit in just adding HDMI video switching without audio capability. (or with only PCM/DD/DTS capability, which I already have via coax/optical)."

I agree. Interestingly, I have now read two reports that say HDMI is having a hard time dealing with high-rez audio. Brent McCall mentioned one spec being off by 20% during a test...and now another guy says that HDMI cannot reclock and is having a problem with Jitter. Whether this will effect DTS-HD/DD+ has yet to be seen...but I think it's obvious that HDMI is not turning out to be the dream interface that everyone hoped (at least, not yet).

It could be that by the time this all gets figured out, it may be time for a new SSP, anyway. I haven't checked the Anthem threads lately, but I would be interested in seeing how they plan on handling this..especially if what Parasound is saying is true, the cost for the D1 could rise dramatically.

[Adz]

An engineer from another pre/pro company suggests that the digital connection for high bandwidth digital DTS and DD will be Firewire.

[goldear]

ADZ...yeah, I was just reading that on another post as well. Firewire works, and to be honest, some people actually prefer DVI for video...if not for any other reason, that it's a better physical connector. If this stuff is driving us nuts, I can only imagine what the smaller manufacturers are going through trying to design for future needs.

[Adz]

The lead engineer from this company also thought that the processor's new DSP has the speed and the capability to decode the new formats from Dolby or DTS. Just the firmware on the DSP needed to be updated. But a hardware upgrade would be needed for the Firewire. So, I'm totally psyched !!! Again he thinks HDMI is NOT going to be the answer in his professional opinion.

[goldear]

Well, if this is true...and that the DSP can be upgraded for DTS-HD/DD, the good news is that this is something that Vinci Labs may be able to do. We keep speaking in terms of what Parasound wants, and can do...when in reality, they do have a partner who also serves other clients that will want these same upgrades. There was a time when people wondered if the 1st Gen. 56367 could do PLIIx...and we got it with a revised version. Either way, there will still be other options. I'm an optimist...sometimes.

[Chetk]

Is Parasound still working on a hardware upgrade for the C1/C2? Brent? Maybe you know.

Obviously, you can't tell us what it is. But isn't something in the works?

[LEVESQUE]

I haven't checked the Anthem threads lately, but I would be interested in seeing how they plan on handling this..especially if what Parasound is saying is true, the cost for the D1 could rise dramatically.

Sorry. Don't want to hijack that Parasound thread. But the Anthem D1 should be hardware updated this summer, around june/july. The hardware upgrade was delayed because they did change the de-interlacer when the job was half-done, after some recommandations by Kris Deering from Secrets. Let's say they didn't choose the "good" chip at first, but we did put them back on the right track really fast :B . Those guys at Anthem are really listening to our needs, and they did change the de-interlacer they did choose at first to meet our demands and needs.

-IEEE 1394 input for DVD-A and SACD (2 inputs, 1 output),
-HDMI inputs (4) and HDMI output (1). HDMI also accepts DVD-A.
- Video transcoding that digitally converts Composite, S-video, and Component Video inputs to Component Video and HDMI output.
-Built-in scaler for Component Video and HDMI outputs, user-selectable up to 1080p.

The scaler will be able to accept, process, de-interlace and scale 480i to 1080p IN and OUT. So for those interested, you could use a player sending 480i over HDMI to the scaler of the D1 and save on an SDI modification.

The scaler should be near the DVDO IScan and Lumagen offering performance wise.

The full upgrade should be under or around 1000$. It's not only an HDMI switcher, but also a scaler.

Just for your info, and to put the price back in perspective. Have a nice day everyone.

[bhuskins]

Sounds like Anthem is playing catch up to the new Halcro Logic SSP-100 Prepro vs. responding to "your demands" :B http://www.halcro.com/logic/productsSSP100.asp

I personally don't want my video processing to occur in the Prepro unless it's specifically Realta or Gennum based which is the future of scaling technology. Even Lumagen is going to the Realta chip in their next round of products. Who wants sub-standard scaling when paying $6,000 to $10,000 for a Prepro? If someone can put the Realta or a Gennum chip inside their Prepro and have Lumagen or DVDO write the algorithms for them...then they'll have a winner. Adding HDMI is a must and Firewire is optional IMO. Here's a good perspective on HDMI as well - http://www.halcro.com/logic/hdmi.asp


Brent Huskins
Media Design

[bhuskins]

Is Parasound still working on a hardware upgrade for the C1/C2? Brent? Maybe you know.

Obviously, you can't tell us what it is. But isn't something in the works?

But the Anthem D1 should be hardware updated this summer, around june/july.

Expect similar from Parasound...

I'm not at liberty to share a bunch of details, but rest assured they have MUCH up their sleeve. Expect CEDIA to be a great year for Parasound Halo and the Classic line as well. Expect to hear details from me in the next 60 days or so as we get closer to summer and the pre-CEDIA hype.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
(817)300-1223
(New HTGuide Forum Sponsor)

[Chris D]

Yikes, this has become quite the hot thread.

I agree, we can say that yes, Parasound IS DEFINITELY working on a hardware upgrade, and has been doing so for quite some time. As with the software upgrade, this has taken a while, and no promises as to when we'll see it for sure. I don't even know exactly what's contained in the upcoming hardware upgrade, but it's going to be a good one for sure.

Interesting stuff on new digital formats, HDMI, etc. Looking big-picture, one thing's for sure--the next few years are going to be quite turbulent in the A/V world.

[Adz]

This thread is getting confusing. Cutting through it all, the focus is supposed to be around whether the new Hi Def formats from DTS and DD would be able to be decoded/supported by the C1/C2; but it such a relevant question across the board that it makes alot of sense in getting a perspective to extending it out to other existing pre/pros, processors and other industry views. We learned that significant and perhaps difficult hardware and software upgrades would be needed and one view from Parasound was that it could cost as much as a new unit implying a C3/C4 generation?? Does that mean their "major" upgrades soon to be annunced are not focusing on this but instead are more focused on video de-scalers, upconversion and switching?

Also, that would really blow if all the focus is on HDMI and then it can't be made to support these formats (or would require a "next generation" HDMI which would require another round of expensive hardware upgrades to the point where a new unit will be a Company's answer). Again, one view is that HDMI won't be the solution here.

At the end of the day, since it looks like the next generation (Hi Def) DD and DTS will be here, in my opinion, that should be the focus of most companies in the coming months!

[goldear]

Levesque: "-HDMI inputs (4) and HDMI output (1). HDMI also accepts DVD-A."
-----------------------------------------------------

This is what is confusing me, also. How is Anthem implimenting any audio through HDMI when recent tests are showing a 20% failure...and, HDMI can't reclock which is adding a significant amount of Jitter. I suppose this may be irrelevant since Anthem is adding Firewire. But what I would like to know, is what Anthem knows with regards to DTS-HD/DD+? This is a pretty hefty upgrade with High-Rez DTS/DD debuting this Fall (supposedly)...after Anthem's upgrade. Do they have (or know) something the rest of us don't which will enable this format with their current soft/hardware? Levesque?

[bhuskins]

You guys are forgetting that Hi-Rez DTS/DD will be directly dependent on Blue Ray and HD-DVD. 1st, this format isn't currently available. 2nd, it's coming soon but will be a very small thumbnail in the grand scheme of things for at least 2 years. I predict that there will be less than 25 titles available by the end of 2006. I may be off a little but not by much. This will be no different than DVCR’s and WM9. The only way they will get stellar support is to unify on one standard (my preference is for Blue Ray) and get ALL of Hollywood's distribution channels to go along with them. Then and ONLY then will the next generation DVD be a success. Otherwise it will wind up just like SACD and DVD-A. They also can’t charge more than $20 bucks for them. I wouldn’t see an actual release of a PrePro product that FULLY supports the new High Def DVD standards and the new audio codecs until 2007. You guys may think I’m crazy but I’ve been around for a while and that’s just how it works. The C1/C2 as is will support the new formats, just not fully with decoding capabilities of the new codecs.

So to think that all PrePro manufacturers should be focused on this now is rather narrow minded (no offense to anyone.) This is especially true for the independents like Parasound, Anthem, Krell, Halcro, Bel Canto and Cary Audio. It’s on their radar but not their current primary focus. HDMI, like it or not is the current focus, but we’ll likely see more than one version of it over the next couple of years…especially with the chips that support it.

You'll see all of this play out with Denon, Pioneer and Yamaha and to some extent HK and Integra/Onkyo over the next couple of years. Once they get close to figuring out “universal” support then the little guys will get into the mix.

For you guys interested in the future of Parasound, you need to look at the Halcro link I posted earlier. Vinci Labs as well...

Brent Huskins
Media Design
(HTGuide Sponsor)

[goldear]

Hey Brent...we are having a similar discussion over at AVS right now. I don't know were this guy (Joel) over there is getting his info, but he's already listed 89 titles for High-Rez...with many of them (he thinks) being discrete 7.1. I think he had a link, so I'll check.

According to some, the big announcement is suppose to come at CEDIA for the manufacturers introducing this technology. One of the guys (Jeff) from the Lexicon group already has Lexicon announcing its upgrade for the MC-12...which will supposedly include DTS-HD/DD+.
To be honest, I don't know who to believe any longer. I am getting contradictory posts...on the same page...about HDMI and how that will be the standard for these formats, while others are claiming the opposite. I've have never seen this much confusion in the A'V community in my life. That said, I do repect your opinion on these matters since you seem to be well connected. Luckily, I'm not moving to things shake out.

[goldear]

Alright...Here's a link to the list...with links to the announcements:

http://www.movie-list.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10918

Universal:
The Bourne Supremacy
The Chronicles of Riddick
Van Helsing
Apollo 13
U-571
12 Monkeys
Dune
The Thing
End of Days
Backdraft
Waterworld
The Bone Collector
Spy Game
Pitch Black
Conan the Barbarian
Dante's Peak

Warner Bros., New Line and HBO:
Above the Law
Alexander
Angels in America
Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery
Batman Begins
Blade
Catwoman
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Constantine
Contact
Dark City
The Dukes of Hazzard
Eraser
Executive Decision
Final Destination
Friday
From the Earth to the Moon
The Fugitive
Gothika
Hard to Kill
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
House of Was (2005)
The Last Samurai
The Mask
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Maverick
Million Dollar Baby
The Music Man
Mystic River
Next of Kin
North by Northwest
Ocean's Eleven
Ocean's Twelve
Passenger 57
The Perfect Storm
The Phantom of the Opera (2004)
The Player
The Polar Express
Red Planet
Rush Hour
Se7en
Soldier
The Sopranos
Spawn
Swordfish
Troy
Under Siege
U.S. Marshals
Wild Wild West

Paramount:
The Manchurian Candidate
Spongebob Squarepants
Elizabethtown
Coach Carter
The Italian Job (2004)
School of Rock
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Forrest Gump
Braveheart
Ghost
Grease
Mission Impossible 2
Black Rain
Save the Last Dance
Sleepy Hollow
U2 Rattle & Hum
Vanilla Sky
Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
Star Trek: First Contact
We Were Soldiers

[Adz]

So to think that all PrePro manufacturers should be focused on this now is rather narrow minded (no offense to anyone.)

Brent Huskins
Media Design

I take the point about seeing this play out first among the mass marketers like the Denons and Yamahas of the world but I prefer the term "narrow focused" since that's what the thread was intended to be about. I guess the point is, why invest $4-6k on a new pre/pro with a very strong possibility of having to buy a new one (as inferred by Parasound itself) in the next 2 years (2007 is actually only 21 months away!).

[Chris D]

I agree--to re-emphasize my perspective, there's a lot in the A/V industry that's currently in flux and will remain so for the next immediate period of time. Two of the biggest issues are being talked about in this thread--HDMI standards and capability including passing hi-resolution audio with video, and Hi-def DVD standards. Both issues are very much in the air right now, with no clear single direction that they need to progress towards.

As a consumer, my demands/requests/guidance for the A/V industry is to create a universal movie disc player capable of playing ALL high-def and standard-def formats of audio and video, that would pass both audio and video in lossless digital signal over one digital cable, (HDMI or otherwise) to a pre-pro that would pass on the digital video signal without signal loss, and be able to decode all digital audio signals.

That's a big demand. That's the direction that I and many, many consumers and industry leaders want the industry to go. But you're going to see a big battle in high-def DVD formats and many changes and limitations in the hardware and technology in the next two years. Think of where we are with standard-def DVD right now, and how long it took to develop and solidify standardized practices. Coax vs optical digital audio vs. 5.1 analog input/outputs, video bitrates, AC-3 vs DTS audio at what bitrates, onboard vs. external decoders, 5.1 vs. 7.1 audio formats, etc.

We've got a long way to go, and like I said, the next 2 years are going to be HIGHLY turbulent in the A/V world.

[goldear]

Wow...I missed that. (Brent) Does Vinci Labs do the "platform" for the Halcro? If so, is it the same Titan configuration? That's pretty impressive...and does seem to bode well for Parasound.

By the way, does anybody know who does the Anthem? I've always been impressed with Paradigm/PARC and their in-house resources. For years they have not only designed and built every aspect of their speakers...they design and build the very molds that form their drivers.

Since Sonic Frontiers was a separate entity at one time, does anyone know if this division is doing the same for the Anthem...or are they outsourcing their platforms like others. I thought I heard at one time that they may have been using Flextronics as well. Levesque?

[bhuskins]

Halcro is using the Titan platform.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[bhuskins]

Alright...Here's a link to the list...with links to the announcements:

http://www.movie-list.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10918

Universal:
The Bourne Supremacy
The Chronicles of Riddick
Van Helsing
Apollo 13
U-571
12 Monkeys
Dune
The Thing
End of Days
Backdraft
Waterworld
The Bone Collector
Spy Game
Pitch Black
Conan the Barbarian
Dante's Peak

Warner Bros., New Line and HBO:
Above the Law
Alexander
Angels in America
Austin Powers: International Man of Mystery
Batman Begins
Blade
Catwoman
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Constantine
Contact
Dark City
The Dukes of Hazzard
Eraser
Executive Decision
Final Destination
Friday
From the Earth to the Moon
The Fugitive
Gothika
Hard to Kill
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
House of Was (2005)
The Last Samurai
The Mask
The Matrix
The Matrix Reloaded
The Matrix Revolutions
Maverick
Million Dollar Baby
The Music Man
Mystic River
Next of Kin
North by Northwest
Ocean's Eleven
Ocean's Twelve
Passenger 57
The Perfect Storm
The Phantom of the Opera (2004)
The Player
The Polar Express
Red Planet
Rush Hour
Se7en
Soldier
The Sopranos
Spawn
Swordfish
Troy
Under Siege
U.S. Marshals
Wild Wild West

Paramount:
The Manchurian Candidate
Spongebob Squarepants
Elizabethtown
Coach Carter
The Italian Job (2004)
School of Rock
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow
Forrest Gump
Braveheart
Ghost
Grease
Mission Impossible 2
Black Rain
Save the Last Dance
Sleepy Hollow
U2 Rattle & Hum
Vanilla Sky
Lara Croft: Tomb Raider
Star Trek: First Contact
We Were Soldiers

Since I have nearly every one of these movies in standard DVD, I'm not interested in replacing any of them. The improvement will be marginal at best. I'm only interested in new titles that I don't currently own on DVD and I think that will hold true for most consumers (especially the non-audio/video buffs and I'm even one of those.) I might buy a couple just for demo'ing but that's it. The movies that will really benefit are ones like Once Upon a Time in Mexico that were filmed and edited with Digital HD source material. Film transfers will continue to exhibit grain problems as the resolution increases. Some of this can be enhanced and removed but the same type of negative Edge Enhancement will occur.

I still think that we will only see a couple of dozen "New" movies show up on HD-DVD/BR by the end of 2007. If there was one standard this number would likely quadruple.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[bhuskins]

I take the point about seeing this play out first among the mass marketers like the Denons and Yamahas of the world but I prefer the term "narrow focused" since that's what the thread was intended to be about. I guess the point is, why invest $4-6k on a new pre/pro with a very strong possibility of having to buy a new one (as inferred by Parasound itself) in the next 2 years (2007 is actually only 21 months away!).

The short answer to this is that you can put together an incredible home theater now. For $25K you can buy a great projector and screen, a great audio set up and excellent speakers. This system can last a very long time with tons of family enjoyment. Will this system be outdated once HD-DVD and Blue Ray get released?, absolutely not. Does anyone think when a potential customer asks me if I think they should get a home theater, I tell them to come back in 2007 when all the details are ironed out on the next generation DVD?, of course not. This is just the current dilemma and in 2007 I guarantee there will be another hot topic causing the same type of discussion…probably wireless connectivity of your components for all audio and video transmissions. Just plug all the A/V gear into the wall and plug your speakers into your amp, identify the system's wireless channel for communication and you're done. Companies are working on this type of thing now and expect to see it at CES in 2-3 years in products from Sony or Denon. The dilemmas won't stop there either.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[Adz]

I don't know --- is wireless connectivity of your components for all audio and video transmissions going and/or meant to take audio and video quality to that "next level" like HD DVD is promising and in such short a time or is it just a convenience upgrade? I completely understand the very good analogy you are trying to make, just seems like a strange comparison. Maybe Hi-Def DVD with DTS HD/DD+ won't deliver the anticipated superior audio and video quality its being made out to --- I think it will though.

[goldear]

"I still think that we will only see a couple of dozen "New" movies show up on HD-DVD/BR by the end of 2007."
-----------------------------------------------------

Respectfully, I hope you're wrong I'm already listening to people dumping their collections (and not buying new) in anticipation of HD-DVD. While I think this is a bit premature, and I'm not going to do this, I will say that I am not going to be thrilled with buying new-releases in the old technology...while they are re-releasing older films in the new technology. This will not be a good business decision...if the technology is there. I just can't get a grasp on any of this right now.