C1/C2: Using all 7 speakers without added sound effects (echo)

[Peter Nielsen]

To my disappointment, the "Normal" DSP mode is 5.1 only and thus disables the back speakers, whereas the "Concert" mode uses both surrounds and back. Unfortunately the "Concert" mode has an evil very undesired side effect: it adds echo :rant:

So, how can I play stereo CDs using all 7 speakers without having echo or other sound distorting effects added? :stupidpc:

I guess Parasound needs to add another mode. We need "Normal 5.1" and "Normal 7.1" :T

Peter

[nicholtl]

You mean "natural" mode?

The mode I used to listen to, before I discovered the magic of 2-channel listening, is "party" mode. That engages all 7 speakers, and does not add any undesireable echo or reverberation. It does however, seem to boost the subwoofer level a bit, so whatever source you'll be playing it on, be sure to have it's own source preset (via the C1/C2 setup menu) and bring down the sub level there.

[Peter Nielsen]

You mean "natural" mode?

The mode I used to listen to, before I discovered the magic of 2-channel listening, is "party" mode.

Yes, "natural" mode of course.

"party" does not enable the rear channels (this is even stated in the C2 manual). I never liked the party mode to start with (not even with 5 channels). The problem is that "party" feeds the surrounds with the same volume as the front channels. This obviously does not work well with large front speakers and small surrounds. (I guess it might work better if the fronts and surround speakers were identical).

In my system "party" sounds horrible but "natural" indeed sounds very natural...

2-channel listening is of course always the best if you're sitting down in the sweet spot for serious listening. However, when moving around in the room a lot, I prefer to use all speakers...

Peter

[Q-Man]

PLIIx should give you what your looking for. You might see it in a couple of weeks. It's a shame, that these controlers lack so many features that the Anthem products have. I can't see how these controlers will survive on sound quality alone.

Are you guys really stuck in two channel land, or is it because these controlers can't do much of anything elce well and you just say that you prefer two channel?

[nicholtl]

Peter - yeah, I do realize the Party mode isn't supposed to engage the rear surrounds, but I think a few of us here on the boards have C1/C2's with a pleasant "glitch" that actually does engage them all. I also heard the firmware upgrade that will one day come, improves Party mode by making this standard.

In regards to your surround channels being to loud, simply assign whatever source you're using to play multichannel 1 of the 10 assignable presets. You can customize that particular preset to have a -7dB surround, for example.

Q-Man - my my, aren't we the cynic? No, the Halo controllers do mono, stereo, and multichannel phenomenally well. I just prefer 2-channel because I'm old skool like that.

[Chris D]

Yikes...

[Q-Man]

I was upset after talking to Parasound. I waited to see if the C1 & C2 were going to offer more in this coming update. I wanted to buy the C2 because of it's ability to configure front effect channels, and because of it's sonic quality. I use front effect speakers now, and can't give them up. This update doesn't even catch Parasound up with some older model processors.

Bass and treble controls only funchion on the mains and center speaker. What about the other four speakers? No notch filters yet. No optional 7.1 sound fields except PLIIx
Limited control of the subwoofer for music and multi channel analog. I could go on, but you know what I'm talking about. This processor is designed for the so called purest.

Every room is different. The room is the most important piece in your system. Your system will only sound as good as your room. You need bass and treble controls, and notch filters to flatten out the freguency play back in every room. Purest who say that they don't use tone controls and such are living in a dream world.

I guess I'll have to buy the Anthem afer all, and add a second processor to produce the front effect channels. If Anthem and Parasound would put their heads together we could have a processor that might be capable of doing it all.

I'm sorry for my attitude, I was waiting and expecting Parasound to do something big this time.

[SpOoNmAn]

I second your idea of buying Anthem. You'd be a fool to buy the C2, it seems youve already made up your mind to NOT like it. Spend your $$ on what makes you smile and not frown(like you are here, lol)

We dont need disgruntled Parasound owners, I dont think we have any now so why start? :T

[Peter Nielsen]

In regards to your surround channels being to loud, simply assign whatever source you're using to play multichannel 1 of the 10 assignable presets. You can customize that particular preset to have a -7dB surround, for example.

Oh, that might be what I'm looking for! I have not looked into the customizable preset functions yet. Thanks for the excellent tip :T

Peter

[nicholtl]

Sorry, there are only 5 assignable presets. But either way, it should work for you. Let us know how it goes, Pete! (can we call you Pete?) =)

[Peter Nielsen]

Sorry, there are only 5 assignable presets. But either way, it should work for you. Let us know how it goes, Pete! (can we call you Pete?) =)

Sure! My friends call me Pete! :T

Peter

[bhuskins]

Q-Man,

Here's the problem with your argument...I can set up a room that has an Anthem AVM-30 in it (optimally tweaked) and make it sound substantially better with a C2 every time. Anthem throws too many adjustments into the mix that actually downgrades the overall sound. This is not something I've dreamed up, but I've experienced it 1st hand many times. The software that Parasound is releasing will bring the units up to date and the notch filters they've added are incredible for room tweaking. Don’t downplay DPLIIx that’s properly implemented. It has both a movie and music mode. The music mode is very nice. Lexicon’s Logic 7 is nice too, but do you really want to listen to your CD’s that way anyway. I personally find that a 2 channel CD playing in a 2 channel mode is what the producer of a CD typically intended and mixed based on that environment. Tell me of 1 CD that’s intended to be listened to in any sort of surround sound mode. Pretty much all of the pseudo surround formats leave something to be desired compared to the real thing – straight forward 2 channel. This is the same problem the original Dolby Pro Logic that matrixed a center channel had…that never sounded right! Matrixed information will never sound great. Discrete channels are where it is at. When people disagree with the idea that 2 channel CD is best then they usually have something wrong with their system. Something like their speakers aren’t placed well therefore they don’t image well, etc. With SACD and DVD-A it’s a different story. Some of the best listening of music available is on these 2 formats. But, realize these discs are mixed and produced to perform in a 5.1 channel setup and that’s the real reason most of them sound so good. Now, I will give some validity to party type modes that aren’t intended for sit down listening. They have their place, but they’re not ideal.

If you really want ALL the bells and whistles get a Denon or Pioneer Receiver...then you can really tweak your system...just remember that it will never sound as good as a Halo setup.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[Chris D]

Good point, Brent. You can get some neat little features in lesser equipment. For me, Denon and Yamaha come to mind. But you're not going to get the overall sonic experience like you do with Halo.

This is not to excuse any shortcomings with Parasound--I want just as much as the next guy to have awesome upgrades and new equipment, and NOW!

[Kingdaddy]

Every room is different. The room is the most important piece in your system. Your system will only sound as good as your room. You need bass and treble controls, and notch filters to flatten out the freguency play back in every room. Purest who say that they don't use tone controls and such are living in a dream world.

Bass is where the room problems are, no amount of tone controls will compensate for this, a simple cheep PEQ will do the trick, like the Behringer feedback destroyer ($100).

[Peter Nielsen]

Purest who say that they don't use tone controls and such are living in a dream world.

First, it's called purist, not purest!

Second, I've never used any tone controls since the day I got my first set of GOOD speakers back in 1987. The preamp that I used with these speakers, Technics SU-A200, did not even have tone controls. I don't consider myself living in a dream world... :roll:

Now, one thing that I can agree on, is that a good speaker usually ends up being either taller than you, or heavier than you. My old SB-M1s were 200 lbs each... My new Maggies are lighter, but they're 7' tall instead... :B

Peter

[nicholtl]

Don't really tall speakers pose problems though, such as the tweeter not being quite at ear level? Unless they're electrostats. I guess the same laws of physics don't apply to those?

[Peter Nielsen]

Don't really tall speakers pose problems though, such as the tweeter not being quite at ear level? Unless they're electrostats. I guess the same laws of physics don't apply to those?

You're right about that the tweeter needs to be at ear level. The Maggies (magneplanar) have a 60" (5') tall ribbon tweeter, so basically there is full tweeter coverage all the way from 1.5' up to 6.5' height. Good sound regardless if your laying on the floor or floating in the ceiling... :B

Peter

[Q-Man]

Brent,

Yes I really do want to listen to CD'c with most of my 10 speakers on. The soundstage is very good, and my mains do image well. I just want, and am used to more. I dislike party modes, and all channel stereo. I like a hint of sound from my 4 surrounds and 1 rear speaker, not to mention the 2 front effect speakers. It's kind of like you don't even know that they are on untill you turn them off. Yamaha has it all over Denon & Pioneer when it comes to DSP's. I also feel that the front effect speakers shound be on with any source. If I uploaded the photo correctly you will be able to see the front effect speakers. They are the LaScala speakers located in the upper left and upper right corners. I can't listen to anything without them on. Once you go front effects there is no going back.

I had receivers with all the bells and whistles and I like Yamaha the best. Yamaha is the one that introduced me to front effect channels. I used the pre outs on these receivers into separate power amps to improve the sound.

I spent two years building and modifying my speakers. I tried a variety of different horns, & drivers, & tweeters before achieving the sound that I was looking for. Then the crossover design was rather stright forward. I then tried various power amps and found McIntosh to compliment my speakers and taste. Then I tried three different McIntosh models untill I found one that made me feel like it can't get any better then this.

Now it's time to stop using a receiver as a processor. I need to see if a controler like the C2 or Anthem will take my system up yet another notch. I'm sold on Yamahas front effect channels. Just using the mains is no longer an option for me. The C2's aux. channels #8 & 9 will give me these front effect channels for all sources except foe the analog 7.1 inputs. So, I may not want the C2 after all. I can use an outboard 2 channel Lexicon processor along with the Anthem to mix and produce these extra channels. Then I can have my front effect channels for any source.

I'm now experimenting with the Lexicon processor in my 2 channel room. No, I don't listen to 2 channel ! This system is set up in another room just to A/B different speakers and equipment.

The Parasound 7100 has analog bass management for the 7.1 inputs like or similar to Anthem. I have to wait and download the manual for the 7100 when it's out. This means that the 7100 may be an option for me. When I talked to Parasound they said that the 7100 uses a lot of the same parts as the Halo line and should sound close to the C2.

The question now is. Will the 7100 sound better then the Anthem? You may be the only one that can answer this question for me. Will you be getting a 7100 when they come out?

Sorry for the long post. I wanted to try to explain to you where I'm coming from.

[Q-Man]

I forgot to try to upload the photo of the front effect speakers. Lets see if this works.

[Peter Nielsen]

Nice and cozy room! It's pretty obvious that you prioritize the audio aspects of your system :B

[nicholtl]

Damn, Q-man! That is one rad, phat, ill, amazing, sweet, dope, bodacious, righteous, slammin, insane, freakin awesome setup you have!

[Chris D]

That deserves a banana for sure. :banana: I think those are horns that I see!

[nicholtl]

For those of you who don't know, Q-man is a very well frequent and well-respected member of the coveted Klipsch forums. The folks there are every bit as friendly and fun as the dudes and dudettes here.

[Q-Man]

Chris,

I am a horn lover.

I'm using the Klipschorn bass horn with a top section of my own. I'm using Altec 290-16K midrange drivers, Altec 311-90 midrange horns, and JBL 2404-H tweeters along with a custom network. When you hear a sax, you have to wipe the spit off of your face.

Klipschorns have to be in corners, because they use the two side walls as an extension of the last fold of the bass horn. The center channel is the same speaker as the mains. The bass horn is just horiziontal instead of vertical. I have it inclosed in a special cabinet that completes the folding of the bass horn for the speaker. The center channel measures + or - 1db at 38hz. even being 5' off the floor. I cross it over to the sub around 40Hz. It's nice to use the same speaker for the center that you are using for your mains.

Enought said, I don't want to get off the subject.

Nicholt,

Your being too kind.

[Brian]

Q-man,
Very impressive array of speakers!!!
But I have a totally different point of view regarding Yamaha and their dsp's. It seems to me that they couldn't get the basics down, so they added 38,000 dsp modes to try and compensate. And there isn't a one that sounds good IMO. A properly set-up system playing in 2 channel will send chills down your spine. You'll believe that many other speakers are being used when only 2 are. That is what excellent imaging and soundstage will do.
Parasound has always put sound quality first and not worried about having every doodad available. They are cautious to add things like room equalization because they want to make absolutely sure that it will always improve the sound and not take away from it (like tone controls on a reciever do).
It used to be that people talked about going from a receiver to separates so they could acheive the next level in sound quality. Now, it seems the trend is to have the most gadgets in your box.
Of course, it's all a matter of personal preference. But to say the Halo is lacking is kind of like saying the Enzo is lacking because it doesn't have seat warmers, GPS and a trunk.

[Peter Nielsen]

They are cautious to add things like room equalization because they want to make absolutely sure that it will always improve the sound and not take away from it (like tone controls on a reciever do).

I agree, but a problem with your argument is the fact that the C1/C2 already has bass and treble controls, so it is kind of half-done right now. IHMO the current bass & treble controls are totally useless and should have been left out while waiting for a full featured equalization that lets us do minor adjustments in the frequency band precisely and only where needed ...

Peter

[goldear]

Q-Man...Get the Halo I know how you feel about the lack of features, but your setup deserves a quality controller. With the premium you put on front-effect speakers, I feel that the Parasound offers more flexibility because of those programmable outputs. You could set your front stage to artificially mimick Sony's SDDS system (L,LC,C,RC,R) with delay, high and low pass filters.

While the Halo might not offer a lot of the all-channel music modes that you want, I'll bet it could do wonders with the discrete multichannel music discs that are available. And with the mixing controls (-100 to +100) that also allow phase variation, you could end up with some fantastic sound.

I added additional high, 3/4 wall speakers for the sides...and they sounded great. I also played around with 5 front speakers for multichannel music (especially DTS at that time) while redirecting the back stage to those front speakers. Because some of these discs were recorded with specific instruments coming directly from the rears, you could place them in the front, as if the band was right on stage in front of you...with each speaker producing specific sounds. No phatom imaging needed.

If you don't like 2-channel...try 5 front-channel speakers...or throw in some ambience and effect for the additional rears. There are so many combinations you can try and you already have the speakers in place. You should at least give it a try since this is a priority of yours.

[Q-Man]

Brent,

Can you forget about our different opinions for a while? I'm looking for a good sounding processor, one that will give me some or most of the features that I want. I asked you if you were going to be getting a 7100 in to demo for your customers. If so, I would appreicate it if you could tell me what you think of it as compared to the C2 and Anthem.

I would have purchased the Anthem long ago if it wasn't for what you said about it on the Klipsch Forum. Your the only person that I know of that sells and can compare the two processors.

I'm sure the Anthem will sound better then all the receivers that I have had. So, I would probably be pleased with it. But, if i can have more of a sonic improvement with the C2 or 7100 then I should go for it. When you say that you can configure the C2 to sound better then the Anthem are you talking two channel, or multi channel music?

Let me know what you think of the 7100. I'm willing to buy from you if that helps.

Why do you still carry the Anthem? I don't think that you ever said anything good about it. It can't be the price. dealers sell the AVM 30 for around $2,700.00 and you can pick up B stock C2's for $2,400.00.

[Q-Man]

Tone controls,

I think tone controls can be somewhat usefull. Boosting the bass helps bring life to those poorley recorded CD's. I'm always adjusting the bass control up and down depending on the CD. I listen to a lot of blues, and some of the older recordings are bad. I think bass controls could be very helpfull for your surround speakers. I have four surround speakers and one rear speaker, one pair of my surround pairs are LaScalas and they are lifted 5' off the floor. You know what happens when you lift a full range speaker off the floor, the bass drops a good 3 to 6db. Tone controls would help in this case. Anthem has independent tone controls for all the channels. You don't have to use the tone controls if you don't want to, but there are times when they help.

Notch filters are great. B&K just added three of them in their new processor. In my two channel test room I use a stock pair of Klipschorns for my reference speaker. The room is 16' x 20' and has a nasty peek at 50Hz. It is an 8db peak and distorts the room when I crank up the volume. The theater room is 17' x 30' and has a peek at 35Hz and 150Hz. These peaks were measured using the same speakers. The rooms make the difference. Notch filters would eliminate these peaks and add to the over all sound quality by flattening out the the frequency responce.

[Q-Man]

Chris B,

I'm glad to see someone taking advantage of the aux. channels. I think they are the high point of this controller. They would do a better job for me then the 2 channel Lexicon processor that I'm trying. All it really does is add in reverb, time delay, and a gain control, but it sounds better then what the Yamaha receivers front effects.

Thanks for your opinion.

[NMyTree]

Now, one thing that I can agree on, is that a good speaker usually ends up being either taller than you, or heavier than you.
Peter

That seems like a swooping generalization to me.

My Opus 2 are 65+ LBS each, and stand roughly 44 and 3/4 inches tall.

My Quad 22L are about 34 and 1/4 inches tall and weight roughly half of what the Opus weighs.

I consider them "good " speakers.

I've also auditioned and listened to really tall, huge speakers........hooked up with some "really expensive High End components" ; which had me praying for the CD to end, or had me running for the exit. Sounded like elephant dung going through a fan:wtf::rant::rant::rant: :B

[bhuskins]

Brent,

Yes I really do want to listen to CD'c with most of my 10 speakers on. The soundstage is very good, and my mains do image well. I just want, and am used to more. I dislike party modes, and all channel stereo. I like a hint of sound from my 4 surrounds and 1 rear speaker, not to mention the 2 front effect speakers. It's kind of like you don't even know that they are on untill you turn them off. Yamaha has it all over Denon & Pioneer when it comes to DSP's. I also feel that the front effect speakers shound be on with any source. If I uploaded the photo correctly you will be able to see the front effect speakers. They are the LaScala speakers located in the upper left and upper right corners. I can't listen to anything without them on. Once you go front effects there is no going back.

I had receivers with all the bells and whistles and I like Yamaha the best. Yamaha is the one that introduced me to front effect channels. I used the pre outs on these receivers into separate power amps to improve the sound.

I spent two years building and modifying my speakers. I tried a variety of different horns, & drivers, & tweeters before achieving the sound that I was looking for. Then the crossover design was rather stright forward. I then tried various power amps and found McIntosh to compliment my speakers and taste. Then I tried three different McIntosh models untill I found one that made me feel like it can't get any better then this.

Now it's time to stop using a receiver as a processor. I need to see if a controler like the C2 or Anthem will take my system up yet another notch. I'm sold on Yamahas front effect channels. Just using the mains is no longer an option for me. The C2's aux. channels #8 & 9 will give me these front effect channels for all sources except foe the analog 7.1 inputs. So, I may not want the C2 after all. I can use an outboard 2 channel Lexicon processor along with the Anthem to mix and produce these extra channels. Then I can have my front effect channels for any source.

I'm now experimenting with the Lexicon processor in my 2 channel room. No, I don't listen to 2 channel ! This system is set up in another room just to A/B different speakers and equipment.

The Parasound 7100 has analog bass management for the 7.1 inputs like or similar to Anthem. I have to wait and download the manual for the 7100 when it's out. This means that the 7100 may be an option for me. When I talked to Parasound they said that the 7100 uses a lot of the same parts as the Halo line and should sound close to the C2.

The question now is. Will the 7100 sound better then the Anthem? You may be the only one that can answer this question for me. Will you be getting a 7100 when they come out?

Sorry for the long post. I wanted to try to explain to you where I'm coming from.

Q-Man,

You've got speakeritis! :rofl: :rofl:

Being that I grew up on Klipsch back in the 80's, I know where you're coming from. Old school Klipsch mod'ing is a great hobby I once enjoyed for a couple of years.

If you want the front effects and have ultimate tweakability, then the C2 is the real choice. You won't be able to accomplish this with the 7100...it has no programmable outputs.

I think for your setup the choice for a C2 is very clear because it offers you the most of what you want. The only thing lacking is 7.1 analog input to 9.1 output conversion and this should only apply to SACD/DVD-A.

thanks,

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[bhuskins]

And yes, I'll be gettting the 7100 when it comes out very soon...I also think it will favor very well against the AVM-30.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[bhuskins]

Brent,

Can you forget about our different opinions for a while? I'm looking for a good sounding processor, one that will give me some or most of the features that I want. I asked you if you were going to be getting a 7100 in to demo for your customers. If so, I would appreicate it if you could tell me what you think of it as compared to the C2 and Anthem.

I would have purchased the Anthem long ago if it wasn't for what you said about it on the Klipsch Forum. Your the only person that I know of that sells and can compare the two processors.

I'm sure the Anthem will sound better then all the receivers that I have had. So, I would probably be pleased with it. But, if i can have more of a sonic improvement with the C2 or 7100 then I should go for it. When you say that you can configure the C2 to sound better then the Anthem are you talking two channel, or multi channel music?

Let me know what you think of the 7100. I'm willing to buy from you if that helps.

Why do you still carry the Anthem? I don't think that you ever said anything good about it. It can't be the price. dealers sell the AVM 30 for around $2,700.00 and you can pick up B stock C2's for $2,400.00.

Sorry for the delay...I've been very busy with a few different installs.

Home theater is such a great hobby because it can be approached from many different angles. I have no problems with yours.

The 7100 is still a couple weeks away from being released, but I'll be happy to point out all the details when I get a sample.

The C2 can sound better than the AVM-30 (IMO) in both stereo and multichannel environments when properly set up.

I always like it when people buy from me... :B :B No obligation though...my advice is free!! :T

Anthem is at one of my local competitors and therefore I have to deal with it on a rare occasion that someone is dead set on buying Anthem. Otherwise I steer them to Parasound. I wouldn't say this is bias, rather my preference. I make money either way.

Let me know if you need more help deciding.

Brent Huskins
Media Design

[Q-Man]

Brent,

The C2 may be the best way to go, since I can have my front effect channels with it.

I'll wait a couple of weeks and see what this update has to offer besides PLIIx.

I know Parasound won't be adding HDMI anytime soon. There are still too many issues with it before it can be done right. Am I right in thinking that HDMI 1.2 will pass DVD-Audio and SACD? If so, then I'll have all the processing I want for the 7.1 analog inputs. I'll just have to buy a new combo player with a HDMI output. Will I be able to send the C2 in for this hardware upgrade or will Parasound put out a new controler when they do this? I don't want to buy the C2 now if they will be coming out with a new one when they add HDMI.

[bhuskins]

HDMI and hardware upgrades are still up in the air as to what they will do for sure. I know that the Halo products will get HDMI at some point...it's just a matter of when.

Brent Huskins
Media Design