705 and 704

[asalvari]

Hello

I am considering buying a new set of speakers (and surround receiver). My main objective is to keep good music and possibly get some surround for movies. I will comment only on front channel speakers…
After longer listening to:
Paradigm Studio 40 and 60
KEF Q Series (various)
B&W 600 (various)
B&W CM 4
705
704
found that I dislike a lot the sound of paradigm, while B&W is just what I like. I dismissed 600 series (I liked a lot only 601) early in the selection for various reasons. KEF was nice speaker, but came short compared to CM/705. The real choice was only CM 4 and 705 (704 possibly but I have a problem with those)

I have listened to CM4 (with rotel 1056 and arcam cd) and 705/704 connected to bryston/linn.
I found that CM is really nice speaker, but no match to the 705. The main difference I found to be the imaging and smooth representation of the instruments. I like 705 way more then cm 4 BUT… they are weak on bass.

To compare and get real understanding what is going on, I asked the dealer to set me 704 in the same setup to the 705. So 704 were in the same room (6x4 m or something close to this) again on bryston/linn cd, with the foam pads inserted in the vents. I was extremely disappointed by 704!!!! They sounded dark, with recessed highs. This made me feel like the imaging was also recessed. I did not listen to them for more then 30 min, tot, playing classical jaz and rock. They fared worst on classical, making very heavy sounding guitar, piano or violin.

The problem:
Is this possible, or it was my setup? My plan was to get rotel 1056 with 705 or 704. I do not want to commit myself to weak bass speaker, but I would get 705 over 704 anytime, if my listening test was revealing the real nature of 704. The last hope I am getting is that rotel should be brighter receiver then bryston, and 704 will start working. I will ask my dealer to get this setup, but I am not sure if it will improve something.

Would you please comment on this setup? I am not sure anymore if I am not doing something wrong. I simply can not believe that 704 can sound so bad compared to 705.

Thanks a lot!!
Andon

[aarsoe]

Have not heard the 704 my self - but you should ask your dealer about the state of the two speakers you heard.
Meaning - break-in time with B&W takes several hundreds of hours and if the 704 was brand new, then that could explain some of it.

[Aussie Geoff]

Try those B&W 703s again without the plug :-)

Andon,

I am in the process of working my way through the B&W 700 and 800 series range looking for a speaker upgrade...

Anyway - here goes

I started with the 705 (very nice but weak on bass)

Moved to the 704 - clearer mids, especially when there was bass playing as well. I tried with and without the plugs - the bass was much better without them. To see why - let me quote from the manual

"If you want to reduce the bass level without moving the speakers further from the wall, fit the foam bungs in the port tubes."

The store emphasised run in with the 700 and 800 series range. They play them for 20-30 hours before doing any demos.

Went to the 703s which were different again - with even better bass and an extremely strong clear midrange...

I found both the 703 and 704 were sensitive to room positioning needed to be away from the wall and side and angled in a little...

Now I'm in the 800 series (805 to 803 - my absolute upper limit...) And having fun

So - I'd listen to the 704s again without a plug and with some more dealer break in time ... That aside if you like the sound of the 705s (and they are nice) just run them always with the matching ASW750 sub active and use the RSX-1056's DACs instead of the CD players (i.e. a digital connection) and you'll be absolutely grinning in the the bass deparment...

Geoff

[asalvari]

Hi Geoff

Thank you very much for the reply.
I would like to expand a bit on your comments. Indedd I did not pay attention to position of the speakers, just observed that the rear plugs were in. At that time, I was aware that rear plugs should be used if you want to lower the bass, and I got upset from the overal 704 performance even more. I will indeed repreat listening test with them again. Personaly, at this time I believe that listening after the break-in period will not change the overall sound of 704 much, but will ad a bit of refinement (I may be wrong). As I stated, I am stunned how much difference exists between the 704 and 705, and definitely I will listen to them with the receiver I plan to purchase (no special dealer setups).

By the way, what amp/preamp you were using while listening to them?

Regards

Andon

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

It was a Yamaha RX-Z1 Reciever for the 700 series.

I am still amazed by your description of the 704 sound - as having recessed highs. For my ears they were very detailed / bright & I know some reviewers have found the treble to be bordering on the harsh until run in for a week or two. It is possible that they had a cabling issue or some other problem with the 704s you heard. Still - every room / amplifier / cable combination is different....

Let us know how you go with you re-listen.

Geoff

[DrBoom]

I can confirm the slightly recessed highs on the 704's, but only in comparison with the 703/705.
The 704 is not a laid back speaker per sé, but it is if you compare it with the other two.
It's pretty well known that the 704 is the least agressive one in the series, and has a lot less upper mid and treble than the others.
Second in line comes the 705 (to me) and the 703 tops it off with the most high frequency information in its sound.
Again, it's all in the match with the amplifier.
Some combinations make the 703/705 sound better, but some work better with the 704.
I didn't really find the 705 weak in the bass, but it is a bookshelf speaker so it's not really supposed to have a lot of bass.
The CDM1NT had way less bass by the way.

[luszer]

Dr Boom

I noticed your profile contains a HTM2, which I have a great interest in outside of taking the one off the floor at my dealer and performing a home demo over a weekend.

I recently acquired 9nts and would like to mate with the HTM2 Have you any experience with the CDM line combined with an HTM2? If so, likes and what to expect

Also, have you had a chance to bi-wire any CDM's in the front and the sonic improvement gained?

Thank you Ron

[DrBoom]

Well, to be honest I think a CDM-CNT would work better with CDM9NT's.
The CDM and Nautilus range are still a bit different sounding series, though the 9NT comes close to the 804 (which I have).
The CDMs are just a little bit brighter sounding.
That's something I've always found lacking of the CDM and 700 series, their top of the line model (CDM9 and 703) doesn't have a matching center channel.
The FST midrange they use, isn't found in any center speaker except the HTM1.
In theory the HTM1 would be the better match for the CDM9NT, but if you can find one I'd go for the CDM-CNT.
The HTM2 will do fine as well, but I still think the CDM-CNT will give you that extra bit of integration with the rest of your CDM series.
By the way, if I get the chance (and the cash), I'm upgrading my HTM2 to an HTM1 too.

As for bi-wiring, I haven't tried it on CDM9NT's, but my 804's clearly prefer bi-wiring.
It just opens everything up, giving more depth to the sound.
Ofcourse not all cables work equally good, but in general the bi-wire ones sounded better than the single-wire ones.
I currently have my 804's and my HTM2 bi-wired with Kimber 8TC for the lows, and Kimber 4TC for the highs/mids.
And I definitely prefer it that way around, I could also live with 4TC bi-wired but not 8TC bi-wired because the 8 makes the treble too soft in my setup.

[luszer]

Dr Boom

Thank you for the quick response. I agree finding a Cnt would be best, however locating one is difficult. My main heartburn is the height issue were my center will reside. I can not have the Cnt sit above the TV and I do not enjoy the center on a stand below the TV screen

As for bi-wiring I might purchse on some AudioQuest Granite internal bi-wire cable. Maybe I should look at Kimber

Question: 2 different cables (8TC and 4TC)running to the same amp, do you have extra channles available, so more a bi-amp'ed set up Please enlighten

Thanks Ron

[asalvari]

thank you Dr boom!

Thanks for supporting my findings, I almost believed that I am the only one person having this problem.

I would like to add that indeed 705 has nice bass, but somewhat lacking a weight of floor standing box like 704. I believe that this is perceived as "weak". Frankly I like 705 better compared to 704, even considering the bass. However, in order to get 705 "levelly" play the music, you have to crank it up considerably, otherwise is sounds dull, and really weak on bass. Contrary, 704 sounds warm, and on low levels although it losses imaging capability (but this could be me, and my ears) sounds way more "even" across the spectrum and of course more lively.

Now, If this recessed treble was not that much messing up, I would certainly get 704 (I can not go to 703, budget limits and space limits). I was hoping that I would get 705 with extras, however it turned to be totally different animal.

A question: would you please recommend amplifier for 704? I will certainly give them another try.

[asalvari]

Ok, finally I got time to give 704 second chance. This time with rotel equipment (CD, pre-amp and amp). The short : It was not that bad as the first time.

The long:
Couple of explanations on this change:

The lows (bass) seems to got a bit weaker, quieter, leveling with the rest of the presentation. Possibilities:
1) Bryston seems to color these speakers a lot.

2) This is different dealer, in a brick based building. The first one had (most likely) dry wall separation between the rooms, and the walls were extremely resonant. It seems that the hard (brick) wall somewhat provided better control of the bass.


The highs are NOT THERE! Still, it was better. And in fact after the dealer exchanged the interconnects between rotel cd and pream, I start liking the highs! Yes, they were there (almost) !!!. Yes, I could live with this sound. No I am not paying $2000.00 CAD for interconnects.

I don’t know what is wrong with these speakers, and I am most likely going to cross them on the list. I can not get sound I like out of them.

Well, despite the disappointment, I took the dealer recommendation and listened to dynaudio audience. Highly inefficient speaker(86db/1w), but you will have to listen to it to believe the sound. Because I listened very brief period I would not comment its performance (it seems a bit colored, just a bit) but it is very easy to listen to it) I am definitely planning to go back and give these gems a nice testing.

I wonder if somebody who had/has dynaudio and B&W would care to comment on the differences.

[asalvari]

Another weekend, another listening run.

I had a chance finally to listen to dynaudio audience 72 and b&w 704 in decent room (on rotel equipment). Still I liked dynaudio better. However, in both cases something was wrong ( I can not specify it), just plain wrong. Just for comparison, I like better dynaudio audience 62 and b&w 705. The common denominator on all these speakers is:
dynaudio audience 62 and b&w 705 are 2-way speakers
dynaudio audience 72 and b&w 704 are 2.5-way speakers

I was kind on surprised when I come to this idea, but for me there is pattern. All the 2 way speakers sound better (for me) than 2.5-way speakers. Anybody else had this feeling before?

And just to add little bit spice: I had listened to visonik evolution e602. (www.visonik.de) Well, they are very very good!!!! in vocals(this means better then all previous speakers noted here). I was really impressed at the end of the session, quite opposite from the initial scepticism i had for them.

I know this is a long shot(these are virtually not present in N.America), but did anyone had chance to listen to them before?

[olddude]

My 704's are comming around

Due to demands beyond my control (wife), I recently had to get rid of my Martin Logan Sequel II's. I tried to sell them, but didn't have any luck (people don't want to drop $1,100 on 10 year old speakers). My only option was to do a trade at my local dealer, who carries B&W, among other brands. The only speaker (floor stander) in his line that were affordable for me were the 704 - so, the 704 it is (for now).
I knew there was no way I was going to get the 704's to sound like my old electrostats, and was prepared to be unhappy (remmeber, wife's demand). Unhappy I was - down right sad. The 704's sounded very muddy (to me) right out of the box. I was hoping that the sound would improve after the break-in period. I played those darn things day and night at all volume levels (really loud when the wife was away). Low and behold, after about 50 hours of true break-in, the 704's really do sound excellent. Keep in mind, the 704 is going to give a flatter response than speakers that accentuate the upper ranges (like my old ML's). With an abundance of good clean power and a decent break-in period, these 704's really sing. I am powering them with an older solid state amp (Audio Research D-240) and a wonderful tube pre amp from Musical design. I like the 704's because they will play loud and still remain in control. That's important to me. I also liked the 705's, but will never be happy with a bookshelf speaker (no bass). I will probably trade up in about a year to something altogether different, but for now, I am pleased with the 704's. The speakers that I would like to have are several thousands of dollars more and I just can't justify that with my lifesyle.
Definitely take the plugs out and get those 704's away from the wall a good 2 feet minimum. They just are not a bloomy speaker. In fact, the bass response of my 704's is actually quicker and tighter than my ML's.

You may want to look in to Totem speakers. They will not play as loud as the B&W's, but they are a more forward sounding speaker. And, remmeber, forward is not necessarily better (ear fatigue)

Big cheers
Olddude

[olddude]

Biwire?

One more thought....have you tried biwiring the 704's?
That will definitely tighten up the lower end and help deliver cleaner mids.

Good luck.

olddude

[Mark_C.]

How about trying out the various speakers in your own residence. Listening in an audio shop's display room is OK, but unsatisfactory compared to listening in your own environment with your own equipment.

[asalvari]

thanks for suggestions. I really appreciate your help

anyhow, it seems that from the first b&w issue with 704 and 705 my misery started. My firm believe is that if the speaker is fine, I should not notice something being "wrong" in the first few minutes of the listening test. Extended testing should reveal small issues or characteristics, but not the first 1 to 2 minutes of the testing.

It may be unorthodox thinking, but this comes from my belief that one can not drastically change the overall speaker performance by changing cables, or the fine tuning tricks. In other words, if the speaker is laid-back, it will be laid-back no matter what.

Now to do justice to 704, I have heard them producing much better sound, at different dealer. However, this happened only after I start complaining, so he pulled out 3000$ interconnect and the sound improved a bit (they were still recessed in the highs, but I could live with that sound). At that point I gave up on b&w, and listened to various speakers (most of them were good :-)))


Believe or not, I am still looking for speakers. After listening to various models (various means a LOT of them) I have narrowed to few models:
(in no particular order)
dynaudio 52 se
visonik e602
opera super pavarotti

I love magnepan sound, but they are huge!, no chance I will get them in my apartment. I will try to listen to martin logan mosaic (these are fairly small speakers but should have "planar" sound) and decide.

[olddude]

I had ML's for years and loved the sound, even though the electrostats did sound brighter and more forward than most dynamic drivers. I've heard many great things about the GM Audio Europas - comparisons to electrostats, yet very affordable. Personally, I can't believe a bookshelf, such as this, can produce the "large" sound of a larger speaker. You might want to check them out. You might add the Totem Hawk to your list.
With that said, I finally traded my 704's in for the 703. That FST midrange makes a very big difference. While the negative input from users tends to say the same thing; that the 703's are too bright, I can tell you that after a decent break-in period, they really come to life. I was very aggressive in the break-in stage; wiring one out-of-phase and placing both facing each other for uninterrupted play for a week, then normal play at high volume for another week. I don't know how many actual hours I have on them, but I would guess at least 350. In my room, with my gear, the now broken-in 703's sound better than my ML Sequel II's; the highs and mids are there, and the bass is actually much quicker and dynamic than my ML's were.
Note: My Sequels were going on nine years old, so maybe the newer ML's have better technology. I felt that the Sequels were a very good speaker though.

Cheers
olddude

[asalvari]

hi olddude I am really glad that it worked for you. Unfortunately, 703 are out of my budget.

Regarding the planar speakers, It seems that what I like is the easiness of the sound created by them. In other words, they produce "right" sound on different volume levels. Compared to regular speakers, the cone -based speakers seems to have "problem" to move the air on small volume levels, filling the room with wrong sound. I realized that I constantly have to increase the volume level to get the sound I like. This is not the case with magnepan, where they sound (almost) equally nice on low and high volume levels. Hence I am quite uncertain that MartinLogan Mosaic can produce such sound, but I will have to listen to see for my self. If only magnepan were not but-ugly and huge, my quest would be finished long time ago.

That said, I would like to add that Totem is off my list because of ridicules behavior of Totem dealer (American Sound, Toronto, ON). I called once to check the work time, only to find the store closed when I went there (same day) with a note to "ring the bell, and if we are not busy we will let you in". Second time I called and insured that they understand I am coming, so they let me in, I have listened to Totem Hawk (which was nice, but Dynaudio is way better for me) and when I asked to listen to Totem Forest, they refused to connect them. Well, that was it. There is no CHANCE I am buying Totem anytime soon.