True Surround Sound headphones

[kcsun]

Sorry for posting this on the B&W forum but checked out the other forums on the site and not many are as well supported as this one.

Anyway, I have the urge to buy headphones for late night listening when the B&W's are a bit much!

I want wireless and the ability to receive "true" surround sound

I have found these Sony ones that use a digital TOS link to connect and transmit DTS etc.

http://www.sony.co.uk/product/home-e...nes/mdr-ds6500

Reviews of these seem very good but has anybody on here tried them?

Does anyone know of any other surround sound headphones?

kc

[Kal Rubinson]

Sorry for posting this on the B&W forum but checked out the other forums on the site and not many are as well supported as this one.

Anyway, I have the urge to buy headphones for late night listening when the B&W's are a bit much!

.......................

Does anyone know of any other surround sound headphones?

kc

The best current mch headphone implementation I know of is the Smyth Realiser but it is pricey.

[madmac]

I find that any excellent quality headphone is the 'poor man's' surround sound. I have a very good set (Grado SR80) and find them very immersive and surround sound like in their presentation when watching movies. Nothing beats the real thing though!.

[Kal Rubinson]

I find that any excellent quality headphone is the 'poor man's' surround sound. I have a very good set (Grado SR80) and find them very immersive and surround sound like in their presentation when watching movies. Nothing beats the real thing though!.

I find headphones compress everything into my head and are the antithesis of immersive surround.

[alebonau]

The b&w p5 is a sweet headphone, and there is a new larger p7 as well, can imagine that would be pretty special. You can beat speakers for their holographic room filling sound. Headphones will always be in your head or just outside not further. The other thing is bass. No headphone can compete with the way speakers move air so there's bass to feel !

[madmac]

The b&w p5 is a sweet headphone, and there is a new larger p7 as well, can imagine that would be pretty special. You can beat speakers for their holographic room filling sound. Headphones will always be in your head or just outside not further. The other thing is bass. No headphone can compete with the way speakers move air so there's bass to feel !

Agreed!. What good headphones offer however is extremely accurate sound, not subject to room reflections and standing waves etc. Also, the bass is extremely accurate with good cans....bass being the most tricky thing to get right with subs and speakers in listening rooms. However like you said, you don't 'feel' the bass against your body and the room like you do with speakers. No headphone can re-create that.

[alebonau]

Agreed!. What good headphones offer however is extremely accurate sound, not subject to room reflections and standing waves etc. Also, the bass is extremely accurate with good cans....bass being the most tricky thing to get right with subs and speakers in listening rooms. However like you said, you don't 'feel' the bass against your body and the room like you do with speakers. No headphone can re-create that.

the accuracy thing with headphones is a fallacy. How can headphones be accurate if they cant image and recreate a sound stage as the room filling holographic presentation speaker systems are capable off ? how can headphones be accurate if they can recreate bass as speakers are easily capable off.

some limitations of headphones they are extremely close to the ears so our cues we use to place sound in space dont work. there are some other tricks can use eg dummy head recordings but then they only work for headphones and still yet dont recreate that room filling 3D sound experience whcih is what this threads talking about.

re bass, and whole freq response actually the other limitation is the rather tiny transducers that are used. simply not possible for a single small transducer to recreate the entire freq spectrum and accurately. and to add to that with treble top end if they sound screechy. headphone makers for that very reason tone back top end otherwise end up with a speaker that really does nothing for long term listening.

this is the freq response of one of the best dynamic headphones around in the senn hd800...



far from "accurate"

I make the above points having owned some of the very best headphones and some serious headphone rigs, for very top end electrostats which were literally a pair of electrostat panels hanging in front of either head. and in dynamics upto the hd800 mentioned.

the defining moment of clarity in my headphone journey was when I one day setup a pair of 10 year plus old ~$200 standmounts (mission 750LE) with a ~$400 ten year plus old musical fidelity x-100 integrated in a near field config and realised I was getting a better sound all around. from a setup costing a small fraction of my headphone setup.

probably for similar reasons I suspect you will notice most studio rigs have nearfield monitors as well for mastering.

but anyways ofcourse I soon sold off my hd800s and also my hd650 plus my headphone amp, dac etc...all gone. and these days I just run an old pair of hd580s (same as hd600) and B&W p5s as really in sound terms for the money about as good can get I reckon without going silly.

[madmac]

the accuracy thing with headphones is a fallacy. How can headphones be accurate if they cant image and recreate a sound stage as the room filling holographic presentation speaker systems are capable off ? how can headphones be accurate if they can recreate bass as speakers are easily capable off.

some limitations of headphones they are extremely close to the ears so our cues we use to place sound in space dont work. there are some other tricks can use eg dummy head recordings but then they only work for headphones and still yet dont recreate that room filling 3D sound experience whcih is what this threads talking about.

re bass, and whole freq response actually the other limitation is the rather tiny transducers that are used. simply not possible for a single small transducer to recreate the entire freq spectrum and accurately. and to add to that with treble top end if they sound screechy. headphone makers for that very reason tone back top end otherwise end up with a speaker that really does nothing for long term listening.

this is the freq response of one of the best dynamic headphones around in the senn hd800...



far from "accurate"

I make the above points having owned some of the very best headphones and some serious headphone rigs, for very top end electrostats which were literally a pair of electrostat panels hanging in front of either head. and in dynamics upto the hd800 mentioned.

the defining moment of clarity in my headphone journey was when I one day setup a pair of 10 year plus old ~$200 standmounts (mission 750LE) with a ~$400 ten year plus old musical fidelity x-100 integrated in a near field config and realised I was getting a better sound all around. from a setup costing a small fraction of my headphone setup.

probably for similar reasons I suspect you will notice most studio rigs have nearfield monitors as well for mastering.

but anyways ofcourse I soon sold off my hd800s and also my hd650 plus my headphone amp, dac etc...all gone. and these days I just run an old pair of hd580s (same as hd600) and B&W p5s as really in sound terms for the money about as good can get I reckon without going silly.

Wow.....sorry......that was a bit difficult to read!. That frequency response shown is actually quite good but not quite complete. I would also contend and challenge anyone to measure the frequency response of their speaker setup IN THEIR ROOM and tell me that it is accurate!!??. Probably not....Nada......especially in the bass category. Don't get me wrong, I love listening to speakers (properly set up and adjusted) more than listening to headphones by far....However, every time I listen to music or movies using my cans, I cannot help but notice how 'pure' the sound is......with no coloration....with pure, deep, clean bass with no room coloration. I understand the whole imaging thing that happens with good 2ch stereo but I find that whole concept overrated. So much so that I mostly listen to my music in 5ch stereo now because I find it a more immersive experience. But yes.....good speakers driven by a good amp rock out headphones for sure. But.....damn!!.....headphones can sound really good too!. :W

[alebonau]

Wow.....sorry......that was a bit difficult to read!. That frequency response shown is actually quite good but not quite complete. I would also contend and challenge anyone to measure the frequency response of their speaker setup IN THEIR ROOM and tell me that it is accurate!!??. Probably not....Nada......especially in the bass category. ~

the freq response of that headphone is all over the place actually. as mentioned the top end is severely limited to try give you long listenability with a transducer up against your ear ! and yeah accurate if you call a 15db swing between the freq ! its severely pushed towards the bass end with a house curve to give the impression of bass.

I dissagree with your statement re bass category hard to get right in room. actually its quite easy. myself am enjoying for 2ch a pretty flat and smooth bass system response back to my main listening position from 200-15hz. you can buy any number of tools these days to achieve this and relatively inexpensiely for $100s of dollars. I for instance just use the velo sms eq system that resides in my sub...its pretty much subs for dummies for room eq and equalisation. for ht and av and multichannel systems the likes of audyssey actually makes it very easy at a push of a button

~ Don't get me wrong, I love listening to speakers (properly set up and adjusted) more than listening to headphones by far....However, every time I listen to music or movies using my cans, I cannot help but notice how 'pure' the sound is......with no coloration....with pure, deep, clean bass with no room coloration. I understand the whole imaging thing that happens with good 2ch stereo but I find that whole concept overrated. So much so that I mostly listen to my music in 5ch stereo now because I find it a more immersive experience. But yes.....good speakers driven by a good amp rock out headphones for sure. But.....damn!!.....headphones can sound really good too!. :W

all that tells me is that your system and setup is perhaps biased/skewed in setup and equipment for 5.1 rather than 2ch. 2ch is actually quite easy to get right, its only 2 speakers to place in a room vs say 5.1 or 7.1 where have 6-8 speakers to get positioned and setup correctly. as mentioned too in mycase that was just the eye opener when over ten year old pair of bookshelf speakers used in a monitor setup and with an amp both totally in the $100s of dollars all up outclassed a top end headphone rig comprising the senn hd800 which is in the 1000s of dollars. its the main reason why walk in mastering studios around the world and you find small books shelf speakers/ studio montiors used in a near field setup to produce the music you hear.

my main point is on topic of this thread with regard surround sound...take for example world war z with its immersive 7.1 sound field and mind blowing bass effects....headphones havent got a hope in hell of getting within miles of what a 7.1 system will recreate in this instance.

sure headphones can sound really good....I've owened and run headphone rigs for decades and still do ...but theyre not necessarily accurate...and no way can compete in my opinion to the kind of sound experience speakers can recreate in a room whether its 2.0 2.1 or 7.1 !

[madmac]

the freq response of that headphone is all over the place actually. as mentioned the top end is severely limited to try give you long listenability with a transducer up against your ear ! and yeah accurate if you call a 15db swing between the freq ! its severely pushed towards the bass end with a house curve to give the impression of bass.

I dissagree with your statement re bass category hard to get right in room. actually its quite easy. myself am enjoying for 2ch a pretty flat and smooth bass system response back to my main listening position from 200-15hz. you can buy any number of tools these days to achieve this and relatively inexpensiely for $100s of dollars. I for instance just use the velo sms eq system that resides in my sub...its pretty much subs for dummies for room eq and equalisation. for ht and av and multichannel systems the likes of audyssey actually makes it very easy at a push of a button




all that tells me is that your system and setup is perhaps biased/skewed in setup and equipment for 5.1 rather than 2ch. 2ch is actually quite easy to get right, its only 2 speakers to place in a room vs say 5.1 or 7.1 where have 6-8 speakers to get positioned and setup correctly. as mentioned too in mycase that was just the eye opener when over ten year old pair of bookshelf speakers used in a monitor setup and with an amp both totally in the $100s of dollars all up outclassed a top end headphone rig comprising the senn hd800 which is in the 1000s of dollars. its the main reason why walk in mastering studios around the world and you find small books shelf speakers/ studio montiors used in a near field setup to produce the music you hear.

my main point is on topic of this thread with regard surround sound...take for example world war z with its immersive 7.1 sound field and mind blowing bass effects....headphones havent got a hope in hell of getting within miles of what a 7.1 system will recreate in this instance.

sure headphones can sound really good....I've owened and run headphone rigs for decades and still do ...but theyre not necessarily accurate...and no way can compete in my opinion to the kind of sound experience speakers can recreate in a room whether its 2.0 2.1 or 7.1 !

All true.....sounds like you have your bass EQ in check, which in my opinion is VERY important. However, I think that like in speaker choices, headphone choice is important too. Senn headsets are good but not the best in my listening test history. Try a good set of Grado's and I think you will be very impressed by the sound presentation. I recently auditioned many different higher end cans and like you mentioned above, a lot of them had exaggerated bass and high end roll off. The Grado's are extremely accurate. They are so accurate that when I 'tweak' my speakers and sound system, I use the Grado's as my benchmark for what my system and speakers should sound like in my listening room. I'm in an apartment now so when I want to listen loud, I have no choice at this point to do it with headphones (sigh....). I don't feel that I'm missing out much with my Grado's though. They are truly exceptional cans!.

[Kal Rubinson]

The Grado's are extremely accurate.

When I read a statement like that, I have to ask: Accurate to what? Accurate in what way?

[alebonau]

All true.....sounds like you have your bass EQ in check, which in my opinion is VERY important. However, I think that like in speaker choices, headphone choice is important too. Senn headsets are good but not the best in my listening test history. Try a good set of Grado's and I think you will be very impressed by the sound presentation. I recently auditioned many different higher end cans and like you mentioned above, a lot of them had exaggerated bass and high end roll off. The Grado's are extremely accurate. They are so accurate that when I 'tweak' my speakers and sound system, I use the Grado's as my benchmark for what my system and speakers should sound like in my listening room. I'm in an apartment now so when I want to listen loud, I have no choice at this point to do it with headphones (sigh....). I don't feel that I'm missing out much with my Grado's though. They are truly exceptional cans!.

absolutely like speakers headphones are a personal choice. the grado 1000i statement is a nice headphone I heard once. for sure its just one amongst some nice choices, definitely would prefer them over the akg's but yeah to me prefer the senn or B&W phones I have. ps don't look at the freq response of the grados by the way !



re seen sound you describe "exaggerated bass and high end roll off" this is actually the sonic signature most know sennheissers for ...because of the HD650...and a lot of people actually love them. a very popular headphone. I owned a pair myself. senn have no doubt sold a huge huge amount of these headphones. rather surprisingly I actually for their flagship hd800 a lot more neutral more in line with their older 580s / HD600 I also own. so the HD650 though now known for the senn sound were actually a departure from what their other headphones characteristically sounded like. and if don't want the rolled off top end and boosted bass can buy either a hd600 still or hd800

can understand in your scenario i.e. an apartment where can't crank to enjoy that a pair of headphones work. also glad to hear you have found a pair of headphones that hit the spot.

[alebonau]

When I read a statement like that, I have to ask: Accurate to what? Accurate in what way?

good points

[kcsun]

Blimey, this is all getting a bit deep for me

I already have the B&W P3's which are great for wearing when I cut the lawns etc, but being wired and Stereo only are not much use in the land of surround sound, as the Sony cans were only £165 ($220) it was not worth worrying about and they are ordered and on their way

I will report back once I have had them a while and done some testing
kc

[madmac]

When I read a statement like that, I have to ask: Accurate to what? Accurate in what way?

That's a great question Kal!. Well, all the guys here on the forum including myself (And you I'm sure!) like accurate sound......along the lines of feeling like the band or singer is standing in the middle of your listening room... live. That's the holy grail of audio setup for us audiophile enthusiasts I believe. Now to be honest, my Grado's do not produce that degree of accuracy (Nor do any cans for that matter)... but from a low bass to high treble perspective, they are extremely accurate and neutral, unlike many cans I've auditioned. They do not seem to exaggerate any aspect of the audio. They also deliver a degree of 'transparency' with a feeling of 'air' between the cans on my ears and my ear drums. That 'air' between the source and your ears is why I'm sure all of us here prefer to listen to our music with speakers rather than headphones in an ideal world.

[Kal Rubinson]

You are describing your perceptions of the sound but, to use the term "accuracy," it is necessary to relate directly what you hear to something else, such as the same event in live performance. Please don't take this personally because audiophiles fall into two classes: those who eschew accuracy for personal preference (I have no problem with that choice.) and those whose goal is accuracy. The task for the latter (my camp) is harder since reference standards (allowing for short audio memory spans) are hard to come by. It is for this reason, I have been trying not to use the term unless I have a specific reference.

[madmac]

You are describing your perceptions of the sound but, to use the term "accuracy," it is necessary to relate directly what you hear to something else, such as the same event in live performance. Please don't take this personally because audiophiles fall into two classes: those who eschew accuracy for personal preference (I have no problem with that choice.) and those whose goal is accuracy. The task for the latter (my camp) is harder since reference standards (allowing for short audio memory spans) are hard to come by. It is for this reason, I have been trying not to use the term unless I have a specific reference.

Agreed totally and makes perfect sense!. I guess my perception of 'accurate' is the sound is something 'approaching' what I think that the 'real thing' live should sound like live in the room. Being a musician, I am very aware that once my voice and my guitar go into a mic and mixing board, the game is over in terms of it sounding as good as the real thing. Good audio can only, at best, approach a 'semblance' of the real thing. I will say this though,,,,,,and that is that I enjoy the 'neutrality' of a good set of headphones. :W