Anyone upgraded from the 802Di to 800Di?

[Kal Rubinson]

Straight from the B&W parts list. You will be looking for the D2 parts.

http://www.bwgroupsupport.com/parts/partslist-bw

It's true the crossover points are the same, they are in fact the same on the other speakers as well but the components are different.

That's not entirely proven. The crossover circuitry might be identical but the boards may differ because they must be fit to different cabinet arrangements.

[Rod#S]

That could be, perhaps this is an opportune time to reach out to the B&W rep that has recently started to post on the forum, Patrick Butler, to get the skinny on the crossover networks and if they are different designs (not just same designs on different boards) across the 800 series range and if so what is the differences.

[Kal Rubinson]

I am not concerned about whether they are identical or different. In fact, I suspect that they may have to be different to accommodate (1) the different placements in the speakers and (2) the different LF drivers. Even with drivers made in-house, it is highly unlikely that they are electrically identical and would demand different values and/or circuit details. What is, and has been, an abiding issue with the 800 series is whether they are made to the same spec and quality of components. In that past, the best capacitors were reserved for the 800 and the others in the series had other capacitors. I believe that is no longer the case but Patrick can resolve all these issues, if he would.

[SoundEngine355]

800Di vs 802Di - HF Crossover is the same

[SoundEngine355]

800Di vs 802Di - MF Crossover is almost identical except for C1/C2 is 44uF vs 47uF with Silver Oil vs Mcap

[SoundEngine355]

800Di vs 802Di - LF Crossover is the same

[SoundEngine355]

For the 802Di MF - You could change the 47uf Mcap across to a Silver/Oil version very easy.

...that said, you would be hard pushed to hear any difference if you disconnected the woofers on both the 800Di and 802Di between the HF/MF.

[Kal Rubinson]

For the 802Di MF - You could change the 47uf Mcap across to a Silver/Oil version very easy.

...that said, you would be hard pushed to hear any difference if you disconnected the woofers on both the 800Di and 802Di between the HF/MF.

I do not really understand what you are saying at the end but they are pretty much the same except for the type of capacitor. The difference in value probably reflects what is available in the two types.

[SoundEngine355]

What I am saying is the sound between the two speakers if you disconnected the woofers would be the same.


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[Kal Rubinson]

What I am saying is the sound between the two speakers if you disconnected the woofers would be the same.

Ah. Agreed.

[TomScrut]

There must be a reason for them putting the different caps in there though. Could it be to do with power handling rather than the frequencies and sounds?

[Rod#S]

Cool find SoundEngine355, good job :T

This helps answer a curiosity I have had for some time and how it is I hear a difference in performance. When I got the 800's I had originally thought it was from the different design in crossovers but over time I started thinking the woofers and/or bass cabinet had a part to play as well in the increased warmth. It would seem much more evident now that the difference is not from the crossover design but from the woofers and/or bass cabinet. Very informative, thanks.

[Joey_V]

Either way, the difference in a cross over part mean the cross over to the FST is different.

This could definitely account for a sonic difference in addition to the additional bass and different low vocal reproduction.

For the 802Di MF - You could change the 47uf Mcap across to a Silver/Oil version very easy.

...that said, you would be hard pushed to hear any difference if you disconnected the woofers on both the 800Di and 802Di between the HF/MF.

[TomScrut]

Yeah the crossover point would be changed very slightly (I aren't sure how much as I haven't worked it out but as the impedance of the capacitor is inversely proportional to its rating, and they are wired in parallel and their ratings are just under half of the capacitance of the one in the 802 it cant be much). I think the reasoning for this will be to allow the use of the higher voltage capacitors and the slight alteration will be the side effect of this perhaps?

[wettou]

Interesting discussion I own both 800Diamond and 802Diamond the sound is very close but to me the 800Ds are a lot more visceral you can feel the music that much more!

[Joey_V]

I also think that the air coil and the resistors prior to the capacitor in the mf crossover is different from that of the 802 diamond.

[aarsoe]

The difference between the midrange caps in the 802 and 800 is very noticeable. The 47 uF cap is from Mundors Supreme entry level and the 2x 22 uF' s are much higher up. The cost difference is something like 10 x in parts.
Changing the caps in a 802 to the same types as the 800 will make it sound exactly like an 800 - that is for mid-range and tweeter section, cannot change the nature of bigger woofers on the 800. There is one issue though and that is that space is very limited. It can be done, but it does take some re-arranging. I have however done it and I am very happy with the result.
I have however always wondered what an 800Di/D would sound like if the coils were also upgraded to Mundorf highend types. Pretty convinced it would make a big difference.
PS. For 802D owners you will also need to replace/upgrade the tweeter cap..

[RebelMan]

I am a bit surprised to see this discussion over midrange crossover design between the 800D/D2 and 802D/D2 resurface yet again. It was confirmed and posted (by me) long ago the advantages the 800D/D2 has over the 802D/D2 in the midband region.

The 800 and 802 will NOT sound the same if the bass drivers are removed. First of all, both the 802D and 802D2 use the same inferior Mundorf MCap filter whereas the 800D uses the superior Mundorf MCap Supreme and the 800D2 uses the superior+ Mundorf MCap Supreme Oil. Secondly, even though the 802 uses a larger 47uF capacity capacitor in it's circuit the 800D/D2 must use two smaller 22uF capacity capacitors because they are HUGE! They are huge because they use much better materials. Just one 22uF MCap Supreme/Oil is physically much larger than a single 47uF MCap. Good luck to all you would be 802 DIY modders out there that might think it to be a trivial exercise swapping these capacitors. "You're gonna need a bigger plinth".

Although it's primarily only one part of the midrange crossover we are talking about it is significant and solely responsible for the sound that translates into a more open soundstage with improved clarity and definition.This gives the 800 the advantage over the 802 for these frequencies. The difference is not subtle, it is very real and very audible. If you can't hear it then have your hearing checked or accept the fact that the 802D/D2 is all you really need AND know that it is NOT the same as the 800D/D2.

[TomScrut]

I always thought that the improvements in crossovers on the 800 must be to do with the huge plinth compared to the 802 as the 802 plinth looks a lot tidier IMO

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[RebelMan]

Unfortunately, cabinet/plinth size not only dictates how much sound that can be produced but also how good it will be. It may seem like a trivial and obvious point but there really is more than meets the eye. The larger cabinet/plinth not only accommodates larger drivers and increased volume but also better parts, namely polypropylene capacitors, because they have the internal real-estate to support them. I wish I could neatly mod the 804D2's midrange capacitor but given that it's identical to the one used in the 802D/D2 I am faced with the same challenges that an 802D/D2 owner would face, i.e, there being a lack of room.

I am not overly concerned with the electrolytic capacitor driving the LF crossover of the 804D2 as it doesn't really require the refinement the MF does. Thank goodness for that because there is no way I would be able to cram a few Mundorf MCaps in the bottom of the cabinet without turning it into a frankenspeaker. On the plus side the 804D2 uses the same voice coil motor system that the 802D2 uses for bass which wasn't the case in the previous series.

The tweeter and HF crossover are virtually identical between the 802D2 and 804D2 so there are really no benefits to be had by modding the treble.

So the next time you read some hater blame B&W for "dumbing down" the lesser models in the 800 series they can be properly informed as to why some "compromises" have to be made.

[leo2498]

Unfortunately, cabinet/plinth size not only dictates how much sound that can be produced but also how good it will be. It may seem like a trivial and obvious point but there really is more than meets the eye. The larger cabinet/plinth not only accommodates larger drivers and increased volume but also better parts, namely polypropylene capacitors, because they have the internal real-estate to support them. I wish I could neatly mod the 804D2's midrange capacitor but given that it's identical to the one used in the 802D/D2 I am faced with the same challenges that an 802D/D2 owner would face, i.e, there being a lack of room.

I am not overly concerned with the electrolytic capacitor driving the LF crossover of the 804D2 as it doesn't really require the refinement the MF does. Thank goodness for that because there is no way I would be able to cram a few Mundorf MCaps in the bottom of the cabinet without turning it into a frankenspeaker. On the plus side the 804D2 uses the same voice coil motor system that the 802D2 uses for bass which wasn't the case in the previous series.

The tweeter and HF crossover are virtually identical between the 802D2 and 804D2 so there are really no benefits to be had by modding the treble.

So the next time you read some hater blame B&W for "dumbing down" the lesser models in the 800 series they can be properly informed as to why some "compromises" have to be made.

rebelman if the HF xover and tweeter are the same in both speakers what do you think is the power limitation in the 804 at only 200W?

[RebelMan]

rebelman if the HF xover and tweeter are the same in both speakers what do you think is the power limitation in the 804 at only 200W?

The 804 needs less (handles less) power than the 802 because the bass drivers have less surface area and a shorter throw thus moving less volume of air. It uses a smaller diaphragm, a smaller suspension, a smaller spider, has less excursion and less mass. To do the same work, i.e., produce the same frequencies at the same volumes, the 804 escapes the higher power demands of its bigger brother as there are fewer resistive forces in play and less energy is lost in the form of heat. It's not so much a power limitation in the 804 as it is a power requirement.

[Mark_NZ]

My recent auditioning of the 802Diamond vs 800Diamond highlighted that the 800 has overall more impact and presence - consistent with what I have read elsewhere.

I did find the 800 midrange was a bit more subtle and relaxed than the 802, but it wasn't a huge difference - easily overshadowed by other system components or setup.

RebelMan - since you have lived with the 800 for a while - have you compared it to other comparable priced speakers; and if yes, how does the 800 rate? Thanks in advance.

[leo2498]

The 804 needs less (handles less) power than the 802 because the bass drivers have less surface area and a shorter throw thus moving less volume of air. It uses a smaller diaphragm, a smaller suspension, a smaller spider, has less excursion and less mass. To do the same work, i.e., produce the same frequencies at the same volumes, the 804 escapes the higher power demands of its bigger brother as there are fewer resistive forces in play and less energy is lost in the form of heat. It's not so much a power limitation in the 804 as it is a power requirement.

thanks for your feedback

[RebelMan]

RebelMan - since you have lived with the 800 for a while - have you compared it to other comparable priced speakers; and if yes, how does the 800 rate? Thanks in advance.

A direct comparison with other class-similar brands has been virtually impossible either because there were variations with the equipment and/or the room, or the models of interest were not available or the dealer was unable or unwilling to allow in-home demonstrations. Though of the systems I have listen to, over the years, from various manufacturers and at various venues, all have had one thing in common between them.

Regardless of the speaker's cabinet, regardless of the drivers it used, regardless of the electronics driving it and regardless of price, in each and every case I gravitated toward the speakers that used Mundorf crossover components. EVERY ONE! A few speakers that immediately come to mind are certain models from MAGICO, Sonus faber, and YG Acoustics. I should point out that in each and every case I was unaware of the build of materials each speaker consisted of until I looked into the matter further as many of these speakers were debut models at the time.

The takeaway here demonstrates, to me at least, just how important the crossover network is to the overall sound of the speaker. In fact, I would go as far to say it is the single most import aspect of any loudspeaker's design.

The 800 is probably not the best sounding speaker I have heard to date but it is by far the best sounding (3-way) speaker for the money.

(FWIW, the Evolution Acoustics MMMicroOne is by far the best sounding 2-way speaker for the money I have ever heard.)

[TomScrut]

Unfortunately, cabinet/plinth size not only dictates how much sound that can be produced but also how good it will be. It may seem like a trivial and obvious point but there really is more than meets the eye. The larger cabinet/plinth not only accommodates larger drivers and increased volume but also better parts, namely polypropylene capacitors, because they have the internal real-estate to support them. I wish I could neatly mod the 804D2's midrange capacitor but given that it's identical to the one used in the 802D/D2 I am faced with the same challenges that an 802D/D2 owner would face, i.e, there being a lack of room.

That's what I meant! I didn't realise the same MF caps were in the 804, I suppose the marlan head is the biggest reason why the 802 sounds better than its cheaper brothers in the range, it's not like it's much bigger than an 803


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[Mark_NZ]

I have listen to, over the years, from various manufacturers and at various venues, all have had one thing in common between them.
Regardless of the speaker's cabinet, regardless of the drivers it used, regardless of the electronics driving it and regardless of price, in each and every case I gravitated toward the speakers that used Mundorf crossover components.
The 800 is probably not the best sounding speaker I have heard to date but it is by far the best sounding (3-way) speaker for the money.

Thanks RebelMan. That is an interesting observation about the use of Mundorf crossover components. Also good to know that the 800 at the price point is still competitive.

[RebelMan]

I suppose the marlan head is the biggest reason why the 802 sounds better than its cheaper brothers in the range...

It is. Given the choice between the Marlan loaded FST and an aluminum tweeter or a cabinet loaded FST and the diamond tweeter I would choose the former every day of the week and twice on Sunday, all else being equal.

[TomScrut]

It is. Given the choice between the Marlan loaded FST and an aluminum tweeter or a cabinet loaded FST and the diamond tweeter I would choose the former every day of the week and twice on Sunday, all else being equal.

Hence why N802s seem to be worth similar money second hand to 803 Diamonds!

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[Greg Gale]

RebelMan I respectfully disagree that the crossovers for the 804D2 are the same as the 802D2. The midrange and the high frequency cross over part numbers are completely different as is the price difference between the two for all three crossovers H,M and low is $539.00. The midrange crossover for the 802D2 is twice the price of the 804D2?

If that is the case how can they be the same?

[TomScrut]

RebelMan I respectfully disagree that the crossovers for the 804D2 are the same as the 802D2. The midrange and the high frequency cross over part numbers are completely different as is the price difference between the two for all three crossovers H,M and low is $539.00. The midrange crossover for the 802D2 is twice the price of the 804D2?

If that is the case how can they be the same?

Having just looked at the technical manuals (on bwgroupsupport.com) for both I have to agree with you.

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[RebelMan]

RebelMan I respectfully disagree that the crossovers for the 804D2 are the same as the 802D2. The midrange and the high frequency cross over part numbers are completely different as is the price difference between the two for all three crossovers H,M and low is $539.00. The midrange crossover for the 802D2 is twice the price of the 804D2?

If that is the case how can they be the same?

I didn't state the crossovers were identical between the two models, albeit they are similar.

The crossover network for the 804D2 is mounted across three PCBs whereas there are two in the 802D2 (the HF and MF share the same board). The HF circuits between the 804D2 and 802D2 are identical in design and parts used but the MF and LF circuits diverge slightly. The 804D2 MF uses a pair of wire wound resistors whereas the 802D2 uses a pair of thin foil resistors. Sound quality-wise this is inconsequential but the latter is desired for having tighter tolerances. The 802D2 has two capacitors connected in series whereas the 804D2 is fitted with only one. Given that the simplest circuits generally provide the best results this difference can be seen as only benefiting the 804D2. What I said previously, and will repeat here, is this capacitor is identical between the two circuits. And since the MF networks between the 802D2 and the 800D2 primarily differ on this part the impact of its presence is not to be underestimated. There is greater separation between the LF circuits as the 804D2 uses another wire wound resistor and an electrolytic capacitor where the 802D2 uses the preferred foil variety and polypropylene capacitors. However, this delta has less to do with performance and more to do with cost and internal cabinet space. Bass may not be as prodigious but it is equally articulate which is no surprise given that the driver motor is identical between them.

Price-wise the two crossover networks are a wash. The 804D2 totals $781.92 and the 802D2 $797.85. Gold and silver commands a premium but then again PCBs are not exactly cheap either.

Tom... still agree with GG?

[TomScrut]

I didn't do his sums, but just glancing at the part numbers of the components in the crossovers (which is all I have to work off) it looked like there was a fair bit of difference but I admit I don't know enough about crossovers to know what is of significance and I did think some of it could be to do with power handling more than sound quality. I don't know who to agree with!

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[RebelMan]

I didn't do his sums, but just glancing at the part numbers of the components in the crossovers (which is all I have to work off) it looked like there was a fair bit of difference but I admit I don't know enough about crossovers to know what is of significance and I did think some of it could be to do with power handling more than sound quality. I don't know who to agree with!

I think GG will concur now that I expanded on it. My remarks were not intended to take anything away from the 802D2's greatness. Only to point out just how much improved and closer in sound quality the 804 has become since the previous series. So for people that want 802D2 like performance but in a compact package the 804D2 can provide that, despite B&W's attempts to market the 803D2 that way.

[TomScrut]

I personally think each one is worthy of the money it costs to go up a model, possibly barring the 800 which while better than the 802 I don't think needs as big a price gap, or possibly that the 802 could justify a bigger gap from the 803. I demoed the 804 803 and 802 in that order and I felt a significant improvement was made each time although like you say for a small room the 804 is a better option than the 803. I heard the 802s and I had to have them. I just wish (as I have a small room) that they did something a bit smaller with the marlan head as the cohesion of the sound was what sold me the 802 vs the other models. The 800 was/is out of the question on both a size and price front.

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[RebelMan]

The price gap between the 800 and 802 does seem hard to justify but the 800 is using some pretty pricey parts plus those bass drivers are unique to the 800 and are substantial. One thing is for sure you'll never, ever inadvertantly tip an 800 thanks to that plinth.

Frankly, I find that the 804D2 outperforms the 803D2 more often than it doesn't or should. The 803D/D2 is difficult to get dialed in correctly and even then the midrange is not as well represented. Bass is good though but unfortunately it only adds to the disparity between the mids and highs making it the least tonally balanced of the series. Factor in the difficulty navigating it around the room and there is even less reason to appreciate it.

I like the 803D2 but it doesn't posses the kind of value that the 804D2 and the 802D2 do.

Perhaps if B&W decides to take the PM1 concept and incorporate that design with the current 800 series you could end up with a smaller version of the Marlan head. I suspect (and hope) they will do this to some degree in the next 800 series, especially if we do not see the PM1 series expand to include floor standers.

[TomScrut]

Yes I see your point there. The bass on the 803 is undoubtedly better but it kind of dominates the sound compared to the 804. On the other hand it sounds too forced with the bass like it is trying too hard compared to the effortlessness of the 802 and of course the 800!

Yes I appreciate the components are more expensive but if you look at the cabinets etc the 802 is as complex to make, same marlan head and similar bottom but different size. I suspect the difference of costs of manufacture are far less than the difference in price! Aren't the 802 bass drivers unique to the 802?

I think the series would benefit from a few more models to be honest, with a smaller than 805 standmount and an 803S sized floorstander, possibly at the expense of the 803s current size. I felt the 803S had an excellent balance in sound, plenty of bass vs the 804 but not dominating like the current model and not that big (the 804 isn't a very big floorstander is it really?). Let's be honest, and 803 Diamond doesn't take up a lot less space than the 802 so why does it need to be so big? As in B&W suggest it produces 802 magnitude bass in less space.

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[RebelMan]

Yes I appreciate the components are more expensive but if you look at the cabinets etc the 802 is as complex to make, same marlan head and similar bottom but different size. I suspect the difference of costs of manufacture are far less than the difference in price! Aren't the 802 bass drivers unique to the 802?

Possibly. The crossovers and plinth cost twice that of the 802D2 and there is the prestige of being the flagship. The percentage price gap has shrunk even though the price difference has increased.

Unlike the previous series, the 804D2 and 802D2 both use the same motor for the bass drivers. The 800D2 uses a larger more proportionately correct one for its low frequencies.

I think the series would benefit from a few more models to be honest, with a smaller than 805 standmount and an 803S sized floorstander, possibly at the expense of the 803s current size. I felt the 803S had an excellent balance in sound, plenty of bass vs the 804 but not dominating like the current model and not that big (the 804 isn't a very big floorstander is it really?). Let's be honest, and 803 Diamond doesn't take up a lot less space than the 802 so why does it need to be so big? As in B&W suggest it produces 802 magnitude bass in less space.

As a previous 803S owner I concur. Next to the 800D it was the best balanced speaker of the bunch and as you noted the 804S had more weaknesses than strengths. If I had to choose between the 803S and today's 804D2 the decision would be a simple one. I'd take the 804D2 even at its higher expense.

The 804 has seen more improvements in it's latest incarnation than any other speaker in the line, including the 805, and it clearly shows in the listening. Unlike before, it has become tonally well balanced. Bass has become fuller and more precise, the mids are less chesty and breath better and the highs are less shrill and fatiguing. The first time I walked into the room and heard a pair of 804D2, with commensurate partnering equipment, I was taken aback by how much it grew up. I owned a pair of 800D for a long time. Do I miss them? Not as much as I thought I would.

[TomScrut]

As a previous 803S owner I concur. Next to the 800D it was the best balanced speaker of the bunch and as you noted the 804S had more weaknesses than strengths. If I had to choose between the 803S and today's 804D2 the decision would be a simple one. I'd take the 804D2 even at its higher expense.

Yes I would have a pair of 804 Diamonds over 803Ss any day, but last time I heard 804 Diamonds I owned 803Ss and I did feel that I would miss that little bit of extra bass, but its not that much better to overcome the massive improvements in midrange and treble. I also actually think the 803S sized cabinet is the most aesthetically pleasing of the lot too, the 804s look a bit small whereas the 803 D/Diamond cabinet is too tall I think.

[Rod#S]

... I owned a pair of 800D for a long time. Do I miss them? Not as much as I thought I would.

What have you moved onto?

[leo2498]

The price gap between the 800 and 802 does seem hard to justify but the 800 is using some pretty pricey parts plus those bass drivers are unique to the 800 and are substantial. One thing is for sure you'll never, ever inadvertantly tip an 800 thanks to that plinth.

Frankly, I find that the 804D2 outperforms the 803D2 more often than it doesn't or should. The 803D/D2 is difficult to get dialed in correctly and even then the midrange is not as well represented. Bass is good though but unfortunately it only adds to the disparity between the mids and highs making it the least tonally balanced of the series. Factor in the difficulty navigating it around the room and there is even less reason to appreciate it.

I like the 803D2 but it doesn't posses the kind of value that the 804D2 and the 802D2 do.

Perhaps if B&W decides to take the PM1 concept and incorporate that design with the current 800 series you could end up with a smaller version of the Marlan head. I suspect (and hope) they will do this to some degree in the next 800 series, especially if we do not see the PM1 series expand to include floor standers.

Could not be more agreed with you, if I will change my 804 will be for a 802 instead of 803 because it’s a side move instead of forward, I want a bigger speaker with marlan head but I have not the right space for the 802 so I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that B&W could launch a new integrant to the family.

[RebelMan]

Yes I would have a pair of 804 Diamonds over 803Ss any day, but last time I heard 804 Diamonds I owned 803Ss and I did feel that I would miss that little bit of extra bass, but its not that much better to overcome the massive improvements in midrange and treble. I also actually think the 803S sized cabinet is the most aesthetically pleasing of the lot too, the 804s look a bit small whereas the 803 D/Diamond cabinet is too tall I think.

Ditto on sizes and appearances. As for bass the 804D2 owns the 803S. The 803S has slightly more extension going for it but that's all. Depending on the material (and hearing sensitivity) it's unlikely one would miss the couple extra hertz the 803S could produce. Under poor circumstances the mighty 800D/D2 can sound like a dynamic lightweight too. In my experience, the equipment and/or the room are most likely to blame for less than optimal bass output within the series. More bass does not equate to better bass but is frequently misconstrued as such. The 804D2 midrange and highs are notable improvements over the 804S but it's the bass that shines brightest.

[RebelMan]

What have you moved onto?

For a short time it was the CM5 then it was on to the 804D2. Room placement concerns after the move were the driving force to change. The room is bigger than before but the orientation rotated 90 degrees throwing things off course. The 802 cabinet is not much smaller than the 800 but the plinth is. Not sure that difference, in the end, would be sufficient enough to address the original problem and so I have been in no hurry to make any further changes. Besides, my wife has never been a fan of bowling balls in the living room and whenever I bring the subject up she is quick to squelch any ideas. It seems until I have a dedicated space to play in my situation is likely to remain this way for some time. The Marlan head rocks but the 804D2 can hold its own most of the time. So far it has kept me happy enough to live with these contraints. Hmm, my wife a constraint? I don’t think she would approve of that. :B

[TomScrut]

Haha yeah I wouldn't even be allowed 804s if I had to have them in the living room. Might have got away with the XT8s I used to have but that's about it! I was powering my 803Ss with my Classe amp, and the demo with 804s was with a Supernait so your point about equipment might apply here. And about extension vs quality, that is one reason I really like the 800 Diamond series because the bass is so well defined. A lot of speakers I hear in that price range have very low extension but it just doesn't have the clarity. Like having a bad room all the time with all frequencies below 200Hz!

Edit: I did think that my 803Ss had very good bass definition though, nowhere near 802s but still very good for the amount they cost me.

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[Greg Gale]

I will vouch for the quality of the bass on the 802 Diamonds. I owned the original N802 for over 10 years before I upgraded to the 802 Diamonds (D2) and the differences were night and day. Not only was the bass improved but the sound stage and cohesiveness of the drivers and treble clarity all contributed to a more alive natural sound. Love them.