amp or processor upgrade for cm 9

[stevek]

i am trying to find the right match for my cm 9's.i currently am driving them and a cmc2 with 3 emo upa1 mono blocks and a pioneer elite vsx52.
i feel like my high's are on the bright side and ive had to adjust the tone levels to try and eliminate this.other than that i really enjoy the sound.
part of my problem is a very large room"open to about 1800 sgft" and really no way to correct the room acoustics.
ive heard the emo amps can be bright but im not sure that they are the culprit.
is there any amp suggestions that could make things better or maybe a true processor instead of the pioneer avr.ive already tried the rotel and to my ears i prefer the emo.
my budget would be 1500 max preferably less so i know i have limited options.older gear is a consideration i would like to get as much out of the cm's as possible.thanks

[Antus]

cm9 do sound bright. that's normal. If it's too bright for u, just use the tone control to correct it.

If you really prefer wormer sound, try use Marantz 7005 pre/pro instead of Pioneer. it will give you a generally warmer sound with slightly less high.

[bigburner]

Hi stevek,

Perhaps your CM9s are the problem?

I owned a pair of CDM9NTs for 3 years and it was a constant battle to get the sound I wanted. I was constantly tweaking the tone controls on my preamp, altering the sub crossover frequency, adjusting the sub volume and I even tried putting resistors in between the speaker cables and the speakers to produce that warm (i.e. distorted) valve sound.

All that tweaking became unnecessary when I bought a pair of 803Ds. I never need to tweak anything these days. They produce a wonderful sound.

Since buying the 803Ds the only change I've made is swapping my Rotel RB-1080 amp for an Emotiva XPA-2. To my ears the two amps sound pretty much the same. The XPA-2 simply provides more presence at low volume and less distortion at high volume.

I suspect that changing your speakers is not the answer that you want to hear but it may be the only way to fix the issue that you have described. Then again it may not. I still got plenty of pleasure from my CDM9NTs and I learnt a lot from the tweaking.

Please let us know what your solution is when you find it.

Nigel.

[stuofsci02]

I would not change your UPA-1 to correct your problem as I don't think it is the cause.. I have a UPA-1 driving an HTM3s without any problem, so you should be good...

I would look towards room acoustics and see what you can do.. Treating my room made the biggest difference out of anything I have ever done, and was one of the cheapest...

If you have a lot of reflective surfaces, it can cause a bright sensation and mid/highs will reflect well... Can you throw up some pictures of your room?

Mine was DIY...

[dukester]

I would not change your UPA-1 to correct your problem as I don't think it is the cause.. I have a UPA-1 driving an HTM3s without any problem, so you should be good...

I would look towards room acoustics and see what you can do.. Treating my room made the biggest difference out of anything I have ever done, and was one of the cheapest...

If you have a lot of reflective surfaces, it can cause a bright sensation and mid/highs will reflect well... Can you throw up some pictures of your room?

Mine was DIY...

Looking good Stu!

[sgtjim57]

Damn good.

[stuofsci02]

Thanks guys..

[sonerin]

Since we are in this topic, I do have the same feel on the brightness. I am using CM8 + CMC with Emotiva XPA-5. The high tones are really high. Sometimes the mid sound too high as well. I am not sure what I should do to tone down on it. I am using the UMC-1 as the processor. Any suggestion will be appreciated. My room size is 10feet x 15 feet.

[stuofsci02]

Since we are in this topic, I do have the same feel on the brightness. I am using CM8 + CMC with Emotiva XPA-5. The high tones are really high. Sometimes the mid sound too high as well. I am not sure what I should do to tone down on it. I am using the UMC-1 as the processor. Any suggestion will be appreciated. My room size is 10feet x 15 feet.

Can you post some pictures of your room?

[sonerin]

Ok. Will snap a few later and post it.

[Dmantis]

i am trying to find the right match for my cm 9's.i currently am driving them and a cmc2 with 3 emo upa1 mono blocks and a pioneer elite vsx52.
i feel like my high's are on the bright side and ive had to adjust the tone levels to try and eliminate this.other than that i really enjoy the sound.
part of my problem is a very large room"open to about 1800 sgft" and really no way to correct the room acoustics.
ive heard the emo amps can be bright but im not sure that they are the culprit.
is there any amp suggestions that could make things better or maybe a true processor instead of the pioneer avr.ive already tried the rotel and to my ears i prefer the emo.
my budget would be 1500 max preferably less so i know i have limited options.older gear is a consideration i would like to get as much out of the cm's as possible.thanks

I suggest NAD preamp , look for a used T175HD which has upgrade abilities as it's card based. NAD is a very nice warm sound with excellent clarity and detail. Most of your sound will come from your preamp. The VSX52 is a nice receiver but I would have never selected that with CM series of B&W as a pre or as a stand along receiver. I would however would have used a SC-57 receiver from Elite which sounds much better then the VSX52. MCACC is also a very useful tool that can really improve overall sound quality in ones not so good acoustic room.
The NAD pre has Audyssey which is also a very useful tool. I think this is your best option for your goal.
I don't know anything about your EMO amps but I do know how damn good the NAD amps sound especially with their own Pre. If you really want your system to shine , I suggest at least checking out a NAD multichannel amp like the T975 which is a perfect match to the T175HD pre.

I have to say a few things about placement , room acoustics and calibration. All these things are as important to your overall sound as the quality of speakers and gear you drive them with. Get any one of the 3 wrong and suffer your sound quality will.
I know treatments can be expensive , ugly non wife approved but really think about your room and see if there is anything that can be done to improve on the acoustics. Many cheap ways or no money at all out of pocket things can be done.
Placement is key for any speaker pair to perform. If they are not placed correctly for the distance you sit , distance apart , considering room boundaries , etc , I don't care if you buy all Krell or Mark Levinson gear, they will never sound their best.

Some pic's of your room , placement , seating would be very helpful to help me help you.

[stevek]

thanks guys, very usefull suggestions.i dont want to change the emo amps as i dont think they are really the issue either.i simply cant afford the 803d's at this time.i just had a listen to the 804di at my local dealer last week and swore i would never go back.they sounded so so good and i simply cant do it.i think i am having a combination between room accoustics ond the vsx 52.i got it in a trade in at best buy for a denon 3312 that just sucked.the pioneer is a little better to my ears.i like it set up features and it has whats called an xcurve that is for high freq.in large rooms"so they say"i have the tone backed down to a -5.
i will try to post some pics of my set up in the next couple of days to give you guys a look and maybe i could get some idea's for treatments.my room is tough due to being open in the rear and left side.the actual room is 25x15 but my kitchen is behind extending the room another 15' and to my lrft it swings out another 12 the literally 60'down to the front door.lol.all wood floors but i do have a large rug in the room.i have actually been thinking about an actual curtain of some type that can be opened and closed
thanks for all your help and a" real"processor may be doable.sorry for the long reply.

[stevek]

I would not change your UPA-1 to correct your problem as I don't think it is the cause.. I have a UPA-1 driving an HTM3s without any problem, so you should be good...

I would look towards room acoustics and see what you can do.. Treating my room made the biggest difference out of anything I have ever done, and was one of the cheapest...

If you have a lot of reflective surfaces, it can cause a bright sensation and mid/highs will reflect well... Can you throw up some pictures of your room?

Mine was DIY...

wow very nice,

[Dmantis]

I would not change your UPA-1 to correct your problem as I don't think it is the cause.. I have a UPA-1 driving an HTM3s without any problem, so you should be good...

I would look towards room acoustics and see what you can do.. Treating my room made the biggest difference out of anything I have ever done, and was one of the cheapest...

If you have a lot of reflective surfaces, it can cause a bright sensation and mid/highs will reflect well... Can you throw up some pictures of your room?

Mine was DIY...

Really nice and clean setup you have there. I do have a suggestion for better in room bass response , I suggest toeing in the 2 subs so the right sub is not loading as much in that corner. Fire the driver as you would a floor standing speaker into the room. Also match the left firing sub. You will notice a slight warmer better coverage. I have noticed this when placing 2 subs in the front of the room straight vs toed in.
Also does your processor test tone or calibrate the sub independently? This is another feature I found to be critical when using 2 subs. You can however tune them by them self by unplugging one , setting it up as stand alone , then unplugging that one and tuning/ calibrating the other one. Once both subs are tuned , then tune them together as one sub and level out. Phase is set during single sub calibration. This is if your pre doesn't have dual sub outs and not a internal splitter like many dual sub out receivers have.

Integra's higher end receivers and pre has independent sub outs which is fantastic. The first time I experienced true dual sub outs was on the Pioneer Elite SC-09tx. Since then I have been searching for receivers and pre's that have that feature.

[stevek]

ok im trying to upload some pics wish me luck

[stevek]

ok i figured it out. hope this helps.the surrounds are b&w in ceiling speakers .i am waiting on a new entertainment stand.it will allow me to bring the center down under the tv and fit all my equiptment.currently have one of my amps on top of the sub in corner.
the system sounds pretty good when playing cd's and movies and such through the denon dvd player.most of the issues seem to be whatching dtv,movies and tv shows and the concerts and such that they broadcast.although i do here it on some blue ray movies.a lot of it is harsh dialog if that makes sense.

[stuofsci02]

ok i figured it out. hope this helps.the surrounds are b&w in ceiling speakers .i am waiting on a new entertainment stand.it will allow me to bring the center down under the tv and fit all my equiptment.currently have one of my amps on top of the sub in corner.
the system sounds pretty good when playing cd's and movies and such through the denon dvd player.most of the issues seem to be whatching dtv,movies and tv shows and the concerts and such that they broadcast.although i do here it on some blue ray movies.a lot of it is harsh dialog if that makes sense.

Yep.. This is as I expected.. In my opinion the brightness is due to your room.. The CM9 are good speakers, and I don't believe they suffer from an overly bright presentation..

You have some very difficult to correct challenges. The main, being the windows at first reflection points. If you want to find first reflection points, have someong slide a mirror along the walls, ceiling and floor and everywhere you (from the listening position) can see the tweeter/mid of your speaker you have a reflection point. I general you want to use a sound dampening material (acoustic panel) at these points.

For you, you have the worst possible material (glass) at many of the first reflection points. You also have hard wood (vs. carpet), leather seats and wood surfaces. Each of these is going to reflect sound and smear your imaging and also cause a brighter sensation..

You may also want to experiment with positioning of your speakers. IMO you would benefit from moving them further apart and away from the back wall.. I know this does not provide the nice look, but sound should improve..

[stuofsci02]

Really nice and clean setup you have there. I do have a suggestion for better in room bass response , I suggest toeing in the 2 subs so the right sub is not loading as much in that corner. Fire the driver as you would a floor standing speaker into the room. Also match the left firing sub. You will notice a slight warmer better coverage. I have noticed this when placing 2 subs in the front of the room straight vs toed in.
Also does your processor test tone or calibrate the sub independently? This is another feature I found to be critical when using 2 subs. You can however tune them by them self by unplugging one , setting it up as stand alone , then unplugging that one and tuning/ calibrating the other one. Once both subs are tuned , then tune them together as one sub and level out. Phase is set during single sub calibration. This is if your pre doesn't have dual sub outs and not a internal splitter like many dual sub out receivers have.

Integra's higher end receivers and pre has independent sub outs which is fantastic. The first time I experienced true dual sub outs was on the Pioneer Elite SC-09tx. Since then I have been searching for receivers and pre's that have that feature.

Thanks I will give this a try...

[stevek]

i will definitly give that a try.i have moved the speakers around alot and i am waiting on a new entertainment center that is a good bit wider and will also let me move the cmc2 down under the tv.we were also thinking of buying some retractable curtains to try and enclose the room when we whatch a movie or listen to music.but i dont know how well that will do for my decor.my wife is actually willing to consider this.we are trying to figure out what we want to do with the color of all the walls.

so you believe that the windows in the rear also are a problem to,i guess i could find some accoustic drapes to cover them.
i have a meeting with a local nad dealer tomorrow to get a listen also.

[Miketr75]

I would not change your UPA-1 to correct your problem as I don't think it is the cause.. I have a UPA-1 driving an HTM3s without any problem, so you should be good...

I would look towards room acoustics and see what you can do.. Treating my room made the biggest difference out of anything I have ever done, and was one of the cheapest...

If you have a lot of reflective surfaces, it can cause a bright sensation and mid/highs will reflect well... Can you throw up some pictures of your room?

Mine was DIY...

Wow look great :T

[stuofsci02]

i will definitly give that a try.i have moved the speakers around alot and i am waiting on a new entertainment center that is a good bit wider and will also let me move the cmc2 down under the tv.we were also thinking of buying some retractable curtains to try and enclose the room when we whatch a movie or listen to music.but i dont know how well that will do for my decor.my wife is actually willing to consider this.we are trying to figure out what we want to do with the color of all the walls.

so you believe that the windows in the rear also are a problem to,i guess i could find some accoustic drapes to cover them.
i have a meeting with a local nad dealer tomorrow to get a listen also.

I think the side window/sliding door may be a bigger problem actually... Drapes are better then nothing, but I am not aware of any drapes that will absorb the amount you need...

I suggest building some acoustic panels on stands.. You can move them around and put them away when not in use...

[stevek]

I think the side window/sliding door may be a bigger problem actually... Drapes are better then nothing, but I am not aware of any drapes that will absorb the amount you need...

I suggest building some acoustic panels on stands.. You can move them around and put them away when not in use...

i found a few companies that advertise accoutical curtains.although they are not cheap.
do you think the glass door are more of a problem than the lack of walls on the left and rear of the room.that would be great if i could solve my issues without enclosing the room with drapes.on the other hand the drapes would still help with my wife always yelling at me to turn it down.ha ha
could you tell me how you did your panels.they are very nice and if i could do as nice a job as you have done with yours i believe they would definately get approved by the boss.the fabric you used would actually look very nice in my room.although we were considering painting the rear wall that color.

[stuofsci02]

i found a few companies that advertise accoutical curtains.although they are not cheap.
do you think the glass door are more of a problem than the lack of walls on the left and rear of the room.that would be great if i could solve my issues without enclosing the room with drapes.on the other hand the drapes would still help with my wife always yelling at me to turn it down.ha ha

No... Having the open back is not a problem.. In fact it is far better then backing your seat to a wall...

[stevek]

No... Having the open back is not a problem.. In fact it is far better then backing your seat to a wall...

ok great as you can see from the pics my room is really open.so i will focus on the accoustical panels.
do you know ant tricks for improving low freaquency effects in such a large room.i have a svs pb12plus and as you might expect a lot of the low frequency ends up in other parts of the house.
i also have a def tech super cube 2 that i can use but i need to find a way to trap it in the room.lol

[stuofsci02]

ok great as you can see from the pics my room is really open.so i will focus on the accoustical panels.
do you know ant tricks for improving low freaquency effects in such a large room.i have a svs pb12plus and as you might expect a lot of the low frequency ends up in other parts of the house.
i also have a def tech super cube 2 that i can use but i need to find a way to trap it in the room.lol

Yeah.. Two subs :W

This helps a lot to balance out the room modes and adds more bass... IMO subs should always be installed in pairs..

Cheers..

[stevek]

I suggest NAD preamp , look for a used T175HD which has upgrade abilities as it's card based. NAD is a very nice warm sound with excellent clarity and detail. Most of your sound will come from your preamp. The VSX52 is a nice receiver but I would have never selected that with CM series of B&W as a pre or as a stand along receiver. I would however would have used a SC-57 receiver from Elite which sounds much better then the VSX52. MCACC is also a very useful tool that can really improve overall sound quality in ones not so good acoustic room.
The NAD pre has Audyssey which is also a very useful tool. I think this is your best option for your goal.
I don't know anything about your EMO amps but I do know how damn good the NAD amps sound especially with their own Pre. If you really want your system to shine , I suggest at least checking out a NAD multichannel amp like the T975 which is a perfect match to the T175HD pre.

I have to say a few things about placement , room acoustics and calibration. All these things are as important to your overall sound as the quality of speakers and gear you drive them with. Get any one of the 3 wrong and suffer your sound quality will.
I know treatments can be expensive , ugly non wife approved but really think about your room and see if there is anything that can be done to improve on the acoustics. Many cheap ways or no money at all out of pocket things can be done.
Placement is key for any speaker pair to perform. If they are not placed correctly for the distance you sit , distance apart , considering room boundaries , etc , I don't care if you buy all Krell or Mark Levinson gear, they will never sound their best.

Some pic's of your room , placement , seating would be very helpful to help me help you.

hello,just wanted to thank all for your suggestions.i decided to take a look at different avr's from companies other than the big box stores.i found a dealer here that specializes in just highend products,i flirted with anthem and integra all very nice but ed with audible images suggested i check out nad and i remembered the suggestion i got here.so i gave it a listen.ed suggested to go with a processor and i auditioned the t175hd and i found that to be the sound i was looking for.i got a nice deal on his display model.i was definately missing out on what the cm9's were capable of.as a bonus i was able to hang out and listen to an unbelievable set up he had in his show room.although there were no b&w's"martin logan"that was really a once in a life time experience.i believe he said he had 250k in the set up.krell,martin logan,jl audio,and more.needless to say ill be hard to get rid of.he had a 3d set up that was mind blowing.any way thanks guys.

[mjb]

Thanks for coming back with an update Steve, and enjoy your new kit. You've made a good choice. :T

[stevek]

thank you and everyone else for all suggestions.the audio and video improvement is just off the charts.im sure i could do better with some accoustic treatments but all the problems with high frequency sounds are gone.

[Dmantis]

Your very welcome. NAD has been making fine AV gear and some of the very best sounding dollar for dollar. Not the prettiest looking stuff on the market but they got it where it really counts.

I really like the CM9's , I'm glad you found some relief and are keeping them.

[stevek]

[QUOTE=Dmantis]Your very welcome. NAD has been making fine AV gear and some of the very best sounding dollar for dollar. Not the prettiest looking stuff on the market but they got it where it really counts.

I really like the CM9's , I'm glad you found some relief and are keeping them.[/Q

Yes its nice to finally be able to enjoy all this stuff.I cant believe how much better thing are.
I found a really smart and really good a/v guy to boot.
Im really happy with these speakers,i love the b&w sound.i can only imagine what the 800 series sounds like.
As for the nad,wow it really brought everything to life,incredibly clear and detailed.
i listened to ariel accustics "10,000 pair" and martain logans top of line speakers and while i cant say the cm 9's are better i prefer the b&w sound over those two lines.Although those ariels did sound really good.

[Dmantis]

B&W makes special speakers. When you power them properly , calibrate , pay attention to placement and room acoustics , they are incredibly hard to match let alone beat.

Not many speakers capture the realism of sound. It's an art to recreate sound. A christmas card will make sound. B&W has found ways to recreate tones and emotion into every speaker they make. They dig deep into the soul of what you are listening to and pull out all of it's beauty. They have a way of moving you on a very personal level.

Take pride in ownership of such fine loudspeakers. If you take care of them , they will take care of you.

[stevek]

[QUOTE=Dmantis]B&W makes special speakers. When you power them properly , calibrate , pay attention to placement and room acoustics , they are incredibly hard to match let alone beat.

Not many speakers capture the realism of sound. It's an art to recreate sound. A christmas card will make sound. B&W has found ways to recreate tones and emotion into every speaker they make. They dig deep into the soul of what you are listening to and pull out all of it's beauty. They have a way of moving you on a very personal level.

Take pride in ownership of such fine loudspeakers. If you take care of them , they will take care of you.[/


"very well said dmantis"