Bi wire experiences

[Briz vegas]

This is not so much a cable post as a hook up post, although I am sure the mods will make the call.

I've run 804s for about 4 or 5 years now and probably will keep them for a while yet. A friend commented recently that I have the most tweaked system he has seen and it certainly is right up there. The cable brand I use comes as either shotgun or biwire. My current biwire cables are third from the top of the tree and a friend is selling his 2nd from the top ( they were the top until about 2 years ago) cable that are shotgun.

I have the cables here now for a demo and their bass and general fullness beats what I have. The manufacturer recommends jumps with the shotgun cables if the speaker has biwire terminals. I have the same brand jumpers and have found the recommended diagonal configuration sounds best.

When I go back to my (lesser) bowie cables I find that although the sound is less full it is better in other ways. It's got more detail, it's bass is more tight like a drum, in fact when you feel the vibration from the music it's like holding an iPod that is recharging, it has a fine high frequency vibration full of detail.

The more expensive cable is from about 2004 and I do think there was a minor mid life revision about the time that mine came out so it is possible that my cables might be closer to these older ones just because of advances in design.

Now you may say, just buy what sounds best, but I don't want to miss out on a very good mates rates price simply because I didn't get the "better" cable reterminated in biwire configuration. I am potentially looking at a pretty minor changeover price so I don't want to miss out.

Has anyone else done there own experiments with B&W speakers and, let's just call them super high end devices shotgun vs biwire. I think B&Ws appear to be optimized to work best bowie and that is how I am interpreting what I am hearing. I don't think it is just the fuller sound that is dulling detail and the tension between notes. Of course I could be wrong.

No discussion on brands please as that would clearly breach posting rules. Actual experiences would be most beneficial. I would love to determinate these cables before I decide but that is not going to happen. As these are reference cables I can't audition locally either.

[Briz vegas]

Ps I hate auto iphone auto correct. It's biwire not Bowie. I would go back and fix the post but it's hard to navigate on an iPod touch.

[Briz vegas]

Ok Just hit the late night electricity now and all is becoming clear.

Listening to Miles and Herbie plying Circles. Those brushes on the right channel and the rim shots are holographic. Maybe it's the jumper cables running in or maybe it's my ears or maybe even the amp settling down but the biwire factor is no longer at the front of my mind. Would this be better with biwire- right now I'm not caring as this is sounding great as it is. Once again the old 804s throws up a surprise. Just today I said to a guy that you could do better than 804 at the price, certainly Focals are quicker and Dyns are more neutral, but that's not to say that the 804 isn't still a good speaker that can surprise you. I think I've just convinced myself to keep these cables.

[wkhanna]

I do not have experience with your specific situation. Based solely my experiences I think you are hearing the differences in the cable only. It has less to do with the speaker. Again, MHO, your CJ has enough grunt to satisfy the 804’s and bi-wire will not influence your sound to any discernible degree.

I feel that cables basically effect tone and speed primarily and to lesser degree imaging, detail and decay. It sounds as though the ones you have are more transparent than the new ones.

Personally, I would take better tonality and detail over extended and possibly bloated low end any day.

JMHO YMMV

[dan87951]

You can tell the difference between speaker cable? Any good quality cable is sufficient! Actually the site owner makes very good stuff called CAT! Give it a try..

[PewterTA]

I will say that when I switched from a single wire to "bi-wire" I noticed a difference I have the RB-1090 amp which has 2 sets of binding posts so I took two sets of cables off them so that my single connecting point is the copper jumper inside the amp.

One thing I noticed and have to say was correct is that the "backwave" that comes off the bass drivers on my speaker definitely muddied the mid range. It was like there was extra "weight" on the upper bass and lower mids. Once I ran the two cables to each of the speakers the mids really cleared up.

So to me it makes sense that the back resonance of power off the bass drivers actually effected the signal being so closely connected to the mid range. Once the connection point was moved back to the amp I think it had dissipated to the point of not being noticeable.

So I'm all for biwiring!

[wkhanna]

.........the site owner makes very good stuff called CAT! Give it a try..

Actually, Dan (PewterTA) & I both use CatCables.

[wkhanna]

..... when I switched from a single wire to "bi-wire" I noticed a difference

Dan is running B&W speakers, so I defer to Dan's experiance here. ;x(

[madmac]

I once changed the cables going to my subs and immediately noticed a change in performance. Odd eh??. You would think that cables......which basically transport electricity can not make that much of a difference but I must admit.....they do !!!!

[dan87951]

IMO all good quality speaker cables are created equal (proper gauge must be used). Guess I'm a realist!

[bigburner]

In any test where a listener can tell two choices apart via any means apart from listening, the results will usually be what the listener expected in advance; this is called confirmation bias and it's similar to the placebo effect. It means people 'hear' differences because of subconscious cues and preferences that have nothing to do with the audio, like preferring a more expensive (or more attractive) amplifier over a cheaper option.

The human brain is designed to notice patterns and differences, even where none exist. This tendency can't just be turned off when a person is asked to make objective decisions; it's completely subconscious. Nor can a bias be defeated by mere skepticism. Controlled experimentation shows that awareness of confirmation bias can increase rather than decreases the effect! A test that doesn't carefully eliminate confirmation bias is worthless.

~ Christopher Montgomery

[madmac]

In any test where a listener can tell two choices apart via any means apart from listening, the results will usually be what the listener expected in advance; this is called confirmation bias and it's similar to the placebo effect. It means people 'hear' differences because of subconscious cues and preferences that have nothing to do with the audio, like preferring a more expensive (or more attractive) amplifier over a cheaper option.

The human brain is designed to notice patterns and differences, even where none exist. This tendency can't just be turned off when a person is asked to make objective decisions; it's completely subconscious. Nor can a bias be defeated by mere skepticism. Controlled experimentation shows that awareness of confirmation bias can increase rather than decreases the effect! A test that doesn't carefully eliminate confirmation bias is worthless.

~ Christopher Montgomery

I agree completely with what you just said. In my case, I was under the impression that there was an issue with one of my sub's RCA wires (A little humming) so I changed them out. I really didn't do it to improve the performance but just to possibly eliminate the hum, which it did. But I did notice a change in the 'sound' of the bass based on listening to music I've listened to 1000 times before. I'm not even talking about anything dramatic here. Just changed out old Monster cables for new Phillips ones. Change them out again and blindfold me and the results might be quite different

[bigburner]

I agree completely with what you just said.

Christopher Montgomery said it, not me, though it's hard to fault his logic. 'Confirmation bias' may require further definition.

Nigel.

[wkhanna]

So, according to Montgomery, not only can I not perceive real, if any difference in any cable……..I can not even trust myself to tell the difference in speakers, amps or source equipment? :roll:

[stuofsci02]

So, according to Montgomery, not only can I not perceive real, if any difference in any cable……..I can not even trust myself to tell the difference in speakers, amps or source equipment? :roll:

To a certain extent there is some truth in that. While there may be some real differences, confirmation bias still exists. If you are expecting a new amp, source or speakers to sound better then there is far greater likelyhood they will.

That is why an extended audition of new equipment is important. There is always a honeymoon stage where you should not trust yourself.

[madmac]

To a certain extent there is some truth in that. While there may be some real differences, confirmation bias still exists. If you are expecting a new amp, source or speakers to sound better then there is far greater likelyhood they will.

That is why an extended audition of new equipment is important. There is always a honeymoon stage where you should not trust yourself.

I believe the only thing you fail to realize is how NUTS everyone here on the forum is about their sound and how much music we all really listen to (unlike many people who listen to their music from the next room....ie...kitchen). When I switched out my Yamaha amp for a Rotel, there was no issues IMMEDIATELY hearing the difference!. No 'honeymoon stage' necessary!!. :T Certain things in audio make small differences which if blindfolded, might be unfounded but, trust me, when you listen to as much music as we do, some things are immediate and have no baring on this 'confirmation bias' theory!!. When you sit down and listen to a song 1000 times sitting IN FRONT of your speakers then make a change in your gear of some sort, chances are you are going to be in a very good position to hear a difference if there is one. We're all audio snobs here!!! :W

[stuofsci02]

I believe the only thing you fail to realize is how NUTS everyone here on the forum is about their sound and how much music we all really listen to (unlike many people who listen to their music from the next room....ie...kitchen). When I switched out my Yamaha amp for a Rotel, there was no issues IMMEDIATELY hearing the difference!. No 'honeymoon stage' necessary!!. :T Certain things in audio make small differences which if blindfolded, might be unfounded but, trust me, when you listen to as much music as we do, some things are immediate and have no baring on this 'confirmation bias' theory!!. When you sit down and listen to a song 1000 times sitting IN FRONT of your speakers then make a change in your gear of some sort, chances are you are going to be in a very good position to hear a difference if there is one. We're all audio snobs here!!! :W

Why do you think I fail to realize how nuts everyone is about audio on this forum? I am not new here. I am an audio nut. When I listen to music, I turn off all the lights and sit for hours in the sweet spot. I have spent a lot of time and money optimizing my system (and I am far from done).

At the same time, a lot of people, say things like "made a night and day difference" for small things that may not even be truly audible.

I am not going to say that there is no difference between components. There certainly is. And between your Rotel and your Yamaha, I am certain there is. But that difference is often exaggerated at first. I have been guilty of this myself.

[dukester]

So, according to Montgomery, not only can I not perceive real, if any difference in any cable……..I can not even trust myself to tell the difference in speakers, amps or source equipment? :roll:

I think the takeaway is in his last sentence, when auditioning. be mindful to eliminate the bias. For me, i bring my wife...and not tell her my preferences (and especially not the prices...yet), else Confirmation Bias becomes Buyer's Remorse (:

[stuofsci02]

I think the takeaway is in his last sentence, when auditioning. be mindful to eliminate the bias. For me, i bring my wife...and not tell her my preferences (and especially not the prices...yet), else Confirmation Bias becomes Buyer's Remorse (:

Well said... Good call with the wife..

[wkhanna]

I am not going to say that there is no difference between components. There certainly is. And between your Rotel and your Yamaha, I am certain there is. But that difference is often exaggerated at first. I have been guilty of this myself.

Bravo! ;x(

I too, am guilty of some exaggeration at times. Small nuances are more easily noticed after years of listening to the same basic system. Thus they tend to be significant to me. Not to be intended as an excuse, but I am reminded of Eric Hoffer’s observation, “thought requires exaggeration and an unwillingness to exaggerate often betrays an unwillingness to think”.

I would like to share an experience I had years ago. Five of us so-called audiophiles were gathered for an afternoon of camaraderie and listening. We had three sets of RCA I/C’s. We had been listing to the same SeeDee most of the day (recounting the event I remember asking what the title of the album was so I could purchase it, tie it by string to the bumper of my car and drag it behind till nary a trace of plastic and shiny metal remained). Anyway, we sat to listen to the three cables. The person swapping out the cables between demos was not familiar with any of them. The cost of the cables was known only to the one person who owned the individual set, which itself was meaningless since we never knew which cables were in place during its demo. After each audition we paused for a moment to summarize our impression in our mind. As we each took turns verbalizing our opinions, all conclusions were unanimous for each set of cables.

I’m not implying in any way what so ever that this was a controlled and scientific method in the slightest degree at all. I am simply putting forth a single account of my many experiences. Five sets of ears, three sets of cables. Everyone heard the same thing.

[dan87951]

Why do you think I fail to realize how nuts everyone is about audio on this forum? I am not new here. I am an audio nut. When I listen to music, I turn off all the lights and sit for hours in the sweet spot. I have spent a lot of time and money optimizing my system (and I am far from done).

At the same time, a lot of people, say things like "made a night and day difference" for small things that may not even be truly audible.

I am not going to say that there is no difference between components. There certainly is. And between your Rotel and your Yamaha, I am certain there is. But that difference is often exaggerated at first. I have been guilty of this myself.

Well said!

[Briz vegas]

I'm not comparing brands, just configurations in two differnt level cables from the same hierarchy or stable if you like.

Anyway, after a further week of experimentation I now have a clear winner between the two. The system is sounding great and beautifully balanced. This becomes apparent running shuffle on my entire collection then listening for a couple of hours to the random tracks - no better way of killing off expectation bias when you have over 5000 tracks on the hard drive. You find yourself evaluating how much you are enjoying the music. The whole rather than a well worn part of a particular test track.

It really is possible to get excellent 2 channel sound from these speakers if you put in a bit of work into the system and the room.

[madmac]

Bravo! ;x(

I too, am guilty of some exaggeration at times. Small nuances are more easily noticed after years of listening to the same basic system. Thus they tend to be significant to me. Not to be intended as an excuse, but I am reminded of Eric Hoffer’s observation, “thought requires exaggeration and an unwillingness to exaggerate often betrays an unwillingness to think”.

I would like to share an experience I had years ago. Five of us so-called audiophiles were gathered for an afternoon of camaraderie and listening. We had three sets of RCA I/C’s. We had been listing to the same SeeDee most of the day (recounting the event I remember asking what the title of the album was so I could purchase it, tie it by string to the bumper of my car and drag it behind till nary a trace of plastic and shiny metal remained). Anyway, we sat to listen to the three cables. The person swapping out the cables between demos was not familiar with any of them. The cost of the cables was known only to the one person who owned the individual set, which itself was meaningless since we never knew which cables were in place during its demo. After each audition we paused for a moment to summarize our impression in our mind. As we each took turns verbalizing our opinions, all conclusions were unanimous for each set of cables.

I’m not implying in any way what so ever that this was a controlled and scientific method in the slightest degree at all. I am simply putting forth a single account of my many experiences. Five sets of ears, three sets of cables. Everyone heard the same thing.

Exaggeration is a big word and in my opinion, meaningless to anyone who cares about the quality of sound that comes out of their system. Any improvement in audio quality IS HUGE to an audiophile, regardless of how minor it is. It's not an exaggeration in so much as a passion for good sound :T

The word exaggeration is mainly used for the dude that caught that big fish the other day and is showing his friends with his hands how big it was!!! :rofl:

[Charlieu]

It really is possible to get excellent 2 channel sound from these speakers if you put in a bit of work into the system and the room.

This is the truest statement in this whole thread.

A fellow 804s owner. 8)

[audiogear]

Hey guys! Great Thread!

I'm looking into whether upgraded power cables will make an audible difference. No brands, just your general thoughts and valued expertise. Audio magazines seem to swear by their improvement on fidelity. I just find it hard to believe a manufacturer would factory stock a power cord that might degrade the sound quality of their product.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks!

[stuofsci02]

Hey guys! Great Thread!

I'm looking into whether upgraded power cables will make an audible difference. No brands, just your general thoughts and valued expertise. Audio magazines seem to swear by their improvement on fidelity. I just find it hard to believe a manufacturer would factory stock a power cord that might degrade the sound quality of their product.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks!

Uh Oh..... Can of worms... Open...

As an electrical engineer I have never heard an explanation that even remotely makes any sense in theory or reality. Unless of course your stock cord is too small, but that is quite unlikely, and if it was the case could be solved with a $5 bigger cord..

[wkhanna]

I have perceived differences in power cables.
Also speaking as an engineer, it makes little sense.
Are the differences I hear only psychoacoustic?
Regardless of whether the differences are real or imagined, is the increase in personal enjoyment worth $70, $230 or $1300?

Nobody can answer this question for you.
You will either decide it is not worth the bother, take a stance based solely on belief, or try it yourself and rely on your own personal perception.

[Lex]

Actually, to shed a little more light on the subject. I've never sold Cattails as adding anything audible to your listening, but I have never sold them to take something away either. As to all cables being equal for speaker cables, I will say that is probably more true than with audio interconnects, but build quality ALWAYS matters. CAT has been built on that foundation, that I don't sell anything to my customers, I wouldn't put in my own system, and I have good stuff. Also, over several years, Cattails have been refined to a point of near perfect build quality. That's what my customers buy, and you know what? Never one pair of Cattails has ever come back for anything that I recall. Customer satisfaction is important. If you want cheap, just go to Parts Express, get some 12 gauge and make your own. But Cat are definitely affordable. While they last. I may phase out for a while from cable sales. I have not decided finally about it yet, but time and energy seem to be a scarce commodity now. I just don't know if I want to go full guns again yet.



Doug

[HedgeHog]

I just tried so aftermarket power cords and I was skeptical at first (given the OEM Classe ones are quite stout) but it does make an audible difference. The first brand I tried was an entry level popular brand. It got excellent reviews so I ordered 5 (BD, 3 x amps, pre/pro). It seems to open up the sound but it also seems to lob off all the bass.

I've now replaced those with another highly regarded brand (from Eastern Europe ). It definitely makes another audible difference. The bass is so much more pronounced and the image is still there but is a bit more subdue than Brand A.

Both cables offered improvements over OEM but, IMHO, they still need augmenting to get the sound I'm after.

Oh, the fatty cables do have a tendency to pull itself out of the sockets (I have hospital grade - Hubbells, I think - receptacles).

Back on topic: I originally bi-wired my 802D2 with the CA-5200...seems to be choked, powerwise. I then added a pair of CA-M400 and bi-amped the setup. While good, it didn't make a huge difference (I was expecting huge bottomless bass when called for). Now I use dual runs (all negative to one cable pair and all positive to the other cable pair) bi-wire to the CA-M400. This to me had the best results. Seems to put the amp into a better sweet spot. Weird, as I thought using lower wattage on these amps make them operate in Class A whereas higher draws switches them to Class A/B.

Cheers,
-H

[audiogear]

Thanks for all your awesome feedback! Sincerely appreciated. Scientific or perceptual, I take it that the best advice is to have an A/B comparison or home audition.