Speaker cables for B&W 802D

[ED K]

Now that I have my B&W 802D speakers and Bryston 7BSST mono amps, The next question is speaker cables. At some point in time (when I get some $s), I want to biamp the 802Ds with another set of Bryston amps. So,,,I need some help in selecting speaker cables so that I can get the limit out of the Brystons and the 802Ds. any suggestions???
For the meantime I am biwireing the speakers with a set of Audioquest Pikes peak biwire speaker cables.

[aphexist]

The best speaker cable is no speaker cable.

[gostan]

Now that I have my B&W 802D speakers and Bryston 7BSST mono amps, The next question is speaker cables. At some point in time (when I get some $s), I want to biamp the 802Ds with another set of Bryston amps. So,,,I need some help in selecting speaker cables so that I can get the limit out of the Brystons and the 802Ds. any suggestions???
For the meantime I am biwireing the speakers with a set of Audioquest Pikes peak biwire speaker cables.

Ed:
The owner and sponsor of this forum is in the cable business. You should read the rules about cable reviews/postings, etc. as they are very particular.
Stan

[Andrew M Ward]

Now that I have my B&W 802D speakers and Bryston 7BSST mono amps, The next question is speaker cables. At some point in time (when I get some $s), I want to biamp the 802Ds with another set of Bryston amps. So,,,I need some help in selecting speaker cables so that I can get the limit out of the Brystons and the 802Ds. any suggestions???
For the meantime I am biwireing the speakers with a set of Audioquest Pikes peak biwire speaker cables.

Here's some unothorized (unsanctioned) B&W speaker cable hype...

http://www.synergisticresearch.com/

follow this link.....Yikes!

[RobP]

Ed you should take alook at Cat Cables,our forum sponser, Doug makes a really nice product.

Andrew, that B&W specific wire link is a no no. :nono: :smackbutt:

[Andrew M Ward]

You're telling me

Yes, I would imagine, but it's really got nothing to do with B&W, they don't have the speakers (as they claim) we didn't endorse the association and nobody even knows what they could be implying as far as "voiced" for B&W ...

weird ...

I'm encouraging people to "Avoid" such un-authorized non-sense

:M

[RobP]

Yeah that company is really hoping to cash in on the B&W name, B&W offers no reccomended cable brands but does offer what to look for in selecting cables. Here is a copy of it. It is a good read.

What speaker cable should I use?


As for any other piece of ancillary equipment, we do not recommend specific speaker cables. Most have their merits, but each is different in one way or another and it is up to the customer to choose whichever suits best. Always get the dealer to demonstrate several different types with the equipment you are going to use.

What is discussed below is a simple overview of some of the factors influencing performance. One thing remains true throughout - cables can only make the sound worse and the shorter you can make them the better. Never forget the importance of keeping all connections clean and secure. Failure to do this can totally negate the advantages of buying a superior quality cable. It is good practice to check all connections on a regular basis.

In many ways, speaker cables are simpler to deal with than line-level interconnects. There are no characteristic impedances to consider and spurious electromagnetic radiation pick-up is inherently lower in proportion to the average signal level. The characteristics of the cable can be divided into two categories - macro and micro. Macro characteristics comprise the bulk electrical parameters of resistance, inductance and capacitance (in other words the cable impedance), and micro characteristics result from such properties as crystal structure, impurities, insulation materials and cable geometry.

Macro properties
The impedance of resistance is constant with frequency (you can have frequency dependent resistance, but that need not concern us here). The impedance of inductance is proportional to frequency and that of capacitance inversely proportional to frequency. Any impedance in series with the speaker has the potential to alter its frequency response. Even pure resistance can do this, because the impedance of the speaker varies significantly with frequency, and the attenuation caused by the external resistance depends on the ratio of the two.

Of particular interest here is the bass region. Closed-box speakers have a peak in the impedance at the fundamental resonance frequency. That is when the mass of the bass driver cone resonates with the stiffness of its mechanical suspension and the air in the enclosure. Vented-box (reflex) speakers have two impedance peaks. The change in response caused by series resistance in the bass region is similar to reducing the strength of the magnet of the bass driver and so are the audible effects. The bass loses its grip and tightness and begins to sound slow. One can, to some degree, acclimatise oneself to changes in response shape at higher frequencies, but the changes in the bass characteristic do not go away with extended listening. We have heard plenty of differences between cables, but whatever the method of construction, in our experience it's always the resistance that controls the bass quality.

The resistance of the cable depends on three factors - the gauge of wire, the length of cable and the conductor material. In this respect, the fatter and shorter the wire the better. Many people ask if it is necessary to make the cable length to all the speakers the same. Systems do not get out of balance if the lengths are different and you should follow the rule of shorter is better to minimise signal degradation. Do, however, allow some spare cable. Don't allow the cable to get stretched tight and, if you use bare wire connections, it is good practice to periodically strip back the insulation to expose fresh conductor.

Excessive inductance in the cable causes a disproportionate loss of extreme high frequencies, making the speaker sound dull and lifeless. In practice, unless you have an extremely long cable, inductance is unlikely to be a problem with any half-decent cable.

Capacitance is not a problem as far as altering the response of the speaker is concerned. Within the audio band, resistance and inductance are more dominant. Excessive capacitance can upset some amplifiers at supersonic frequencies, causing them to send out spurious signals in the audio band, but this is rare with modern amplifiers.

Some speaker cables contain in-line filters. Please refer to the relevant manufacturers' literature to assess the various claims made for this approach.

Micro properties
Here we consider such things as:

Conductor material
Crystal structure
Single strand (solid core) or multi-strand
Geometry and insulation materials
Conductor material
By far the most common material used is copper. Only silver has lower resistivity and it is considerably more expensive. All other things being equal, silver can give better resolution of detail than copper, but this can be more than negated if the crystal structure of the silver is inferior. Carbon is sometimes offered as a conductor material. It suffers less from crystal structure and impurity problems, but has a relatively high resistivity compared to copper and silver. Whereas this is not a problem with line level interconnects, the resistance of even a large gauge carbon speaker cable is generally too high to maintain proper control of the bass response.

Crystal structure
All metals have some form of crystal structure and the electrons have to flow across the boundaries between adjacent crystals. This can potentially cause distortion, particularly if impurities are allowed to permeate the boundary area. The larger you can make the individual crystals, the fewer boundaries there are to cause trouble and the exclusion of oxygen reduces the development of oxide impurities. These factors are controlled in the manufacture of the metal billet and the way it is drawn into wire.

LC-OFC (linear crystal, oxygen-free copper) is a common term in describing the conductor and is the minimum specification for a good speaker cable. The lack of oxygen inhibits the development of impurities and the linear crystals are long in the direction of drawing. Some manufacturers even claim to be able to draw single crystals to lengths of up to 200 metres. Even if this is exaggerated, one might imagine it should be possible to draw crystals up to the whole length of most cables used. Whether it stays that way after the cable has been flexed repeatedly over a period of time, such as for house cleaning, is debatable. Nevertheless, the fewer the crystal boundaries there are, the smoother the sound, especially in the midrange.

Single versus multi-strand cable
There are devotees of both types of cable. Of course, on an absolute scale both parties cannot be right, but the likelihood is that each type complements different speakers, acknowledging the fact that neither is perfect. One of the usually cited reasons for the difference is skin effect, where the current tends to migrate to the outside of the conductor at high frequencies. Again, opinions differ as to whether skin effect makes any significant difference at audio frequencies.

Geometry and insulation materials
Each of the individual conductors in the cable generates a magnetic field around itself. The individual fields interact with one another, generating forces between the conductors. These forces can cause the conductors to move relative to one another. It's the same mechanism that makes transformers hum, but at a lower level. These movements will not necessarily cause audible noise from the cable, but they will affect how the current flows, with a consequent change in the signal to the speaker. The dielectric properties of the insulation have an influence on these magnetic fields as does the juxtaposition of the individual conductors and how tightly their relative positions are held. These factors affect the cable's ability to preserve low-level detail.

[sikoniko]

just to satisfy my curiosity, i called them. they want $3000 for a 10ft (pair) run of their premium cable.

even if i could afford it, it is rather excessive in price.

[Race Car Driver]

3k for some cables!!! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!







hahahahahahahahahahahaha!







*sigh*







hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!







*ehhhhh*

*wipes tear*






Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........................

[Blazar]

12 guage oxygen free copper wire... it works superbly. Any generic brand should do the job.

[JKalman]

I don't use anything pricey, on avg, $25-50 per cable, and I buy the spools of 12 gauge speaker cable.

I'm going to buy better cable eventually, but right now I still need to get two monoblocks before I'll know what size cable runs I'll need for everything. The Cats seem fairly priced considering the materials (I want to buy silver cables...). I'm not splurging the extra money till I know the exact cable lengths I am going to need or I might end up with cables that are the wrong size when I move my equipment around. Right now I'm still using the stuff listed above which I bought in bulk from Bext Buy.

[Race Car Driver]

Yea. im rocking *cough*MONSTER*cough* from best buy myself.
I think it was a 100ft spool... cant remember. The best spool we offer.

Figure at the moment I have other things that need upgrading before my cables.

Ive heard good things of the cat cables though.

[Shane Martin]

Robert,
From B&W's perspective they have to put it like that. Given they have a dealer network, they are making sure they are protecting them because some of their dealers will not carry Synergestic Research. For instance our B&W dealer here in town carries Kimber as their speaker cable and interconnect line.

From a business standpoint if you carried B&W and they recommended another speaker cable you don't carry you'd either change to that cable or drop B&W. B&W doesn't want that risk I'm sure.

[Lex]

FYI, regarding CAT, and CATTails-

Our speaker cables are very well received for B & W products, we also option a few WBT connectors if someone really wants to upgrade em' to an "Ultra" grade product. If you want solid silver cables, I could probably do that as well for a PRICE. Just not as great a bargain as Cattails, which truly are a great value.

Doug

[JKalman]

Doug (Lex),

I was curious if there is anything I can do with my bi-amp setup with Cat cables. Currently I am using a Y cable to split the signal at the amplifier, and it isn't a great quality cable. It seems that wire makers don't sell a high quality Y connector, and I can hear the difference when I switch back and forth between my speakers bi-amped with the Y connector and my speakers without the Y connector.

While I am waiting to upgrade other parts of my system, I would like to make the stereo connections all good quality wire. Thus the source to preamp/processor and the preamp to amplifier all in solid silver with good, perhaps locking, connectors. The only problem is the Y connector, but it shouldn't be a huge issue I guess, because I can just run them without bi-amping, since I don't listen to music at very loud levels. Is there anywhere on the Cat site, or perhaps you could e-mail me or post, a ballpark number on .5 meter length cables at that quality. I would also like to get speaker cables that are better than this low quality Monster cable I got at Best Buy, but unfortunately, I am definitely getting two monoblocks not too far down the road, which will change the wire lengths drastically.

Thanks,

- Jeff Kalman

[JKalman]

Oh and thanks a lot for this forum, it has been a very constructive addition to my online life.

[JKalman]

Oh I had one other question. On the website it says something about some oxidization/colorization could occur. Would this mean the cables are becoming damaged over time and would need to be replaced? How exactly would this effect things over time?

Thanks again.

[Lex]

Oxidation is never a good thing for cables, just the wire itself is deteriorated once oxidized, and it could interfere with signal transmission, eventually even break a transmission if oxygen gets to the connection enough.

Let me make sure I understand exactly what you are wanting in .5 meters before I run off quoting to you. Email me if you would like, are we talking speaker cables still, or is that interconnect length?

I'm happy that you are enjoying the forum and your welcome from our staff and myself.

Thanks,
Doug

[RobP]

Robert,
From B&W's perspective they have to put it like that. Given they have a dealer network, they are making sure they are protecting them because some of their dealers will not carry Synergestic Research. For instance our B&W dealer here in town carries Kimber as their speaker cable and interconnect line.

From a business standpoint if you carried B&W and they recommended another speaker cable you don't carry you'd either change to that cable or drop B&W. B&W doesn't want that risk I'm sure.

I agree with you on that, I do like the information that is given though, although if you asked some dealers about some of those attributes that B&W suggest to look for, you may turn into the weird guy that everyone scatters from when you walk in the place :lol:

[RobP]

Oh I had one other question. On the website it says something about some oxidization/colorization could occur. Would this mean the cables are becoming damaged over time and would need to be replaced? How exactly would this effect things over time?

Thanks again.

There is one good reason not to buy the cheapo zip cord from your local home center to use on your speakers. I have replaced alot of cable in theatres where the cable actually turned green on the inside and corroded, much like the corrosion that you would find on a car bettery terminal, and Im talking in the middle of the cable here not just on the ends.

Just remember, you get what you pay for.

[caleb]

I read the article on the "B&W" speaker cables, and nearly fell off my chair laughing.

"SONICALLY MATCHED TO THE B&W" ? ? ? ? ? ?

Never heard so much marketing crap in all my life!

Anyone who buys them should be embarrassed to admit it - you most certainly should not say so here on this forum.

[JKalman]

Oxidation is never a good thing for cables, just the wire itself is deteriorated once oxidized, and it could interfere with signal transmission, eventually even break a transmission if oxygen gets to the connection enough.

Let me make sure I understand exactly what you are wanting in .5 meters before I run off quoting to you. Email me if you would like, are we talking speaker cables still, or is that interconnect length?

I'm happy that you are enjoying the forum and your welcome from our staff and myself.

Thanks,
Doug

Interconnect length. I can't buy speaker cable until I get the monoblocks and set them up at the right distances or I would be wasting money on cable that is long enough for my current setup but way too long for my future setup.

[xk8boy]

How about cable lengths?

Apart from the "quality" of speaker cables, I would like to know ppl's thoughts on speaker cable lengths. Do you know feel that it is necessary to run even cable lengths to LF speakers. ?

[PewterTA]

It's not necessary to run equal lengths of cables to your mains... Unless you are running them over extremely long distances.

Here's a a good read up on it.

http://www.rfowkes.com/WireLengthTimeDelay.html

Now that doesn't mean the anal-retentive side of me doesn't want equal lengths. :

[JKalman]

Now that doesn't mean the anal-retentive side of me doesn't want equal lengths. :

I know what you mean... ***starts to twitch uncontrollably*** :E

[RNKC]

Great article! Loved it!

[xk8boy]

It's not necessary to run equal lengths of cables to your mains... Unless you are running them over extremely long distances.

Here's a a good read up on it.

http://www.rfowkes.com/WireLengthTimeDelay.html

Now that doesn't mean the anal-retentive side of me doesn't want equal lengths. :

thanks for the article.

[Race Car Driver]

Ha! great read.
Without the technical jargin.. i always looked at it this way, your never going to sit in the exact same spot with the exact same seating posture so it doesnt matter to the point of worrying about.