B&W 600 vs. CM series - cost vs. benefit?

[nirvana_1911]

I have the B&W 683, HTM61, 685 and Velodyne SPL1200U.

I done some listening at the local store, A/B testing various 600 and CM series gear.

With the 685 and CM5, the CM5 has less low-end, but has much better clarity and resolution, sounds stronger in the high mids and trebles, perhaps a tad lean for my taste.

With the 683 and CM9, the CM9 has less low-end, and didn't hear much of a difference, maybe slightly better clarity/detail, but the difference is much less pronounced in the bookshelf comparison.

I have not A/B'ed the HTM61 and CMC2 yet, but I can tell again that the CMC2 will be more crisp and clear, but not sure if it will be lean in the bass in comparison to the HTM61 and if the difference would be worth the price.

I want some advice on what people think, if it's worth upgrading to or not, the CM series is about double that of the 600 series in Australia.

[stuofsci02]

I think you will have to make that decision for yourself. They are your ears, and it is your money, so "worth it" is very subjective.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind. I have found the 600 series bass to be less tight and more boomy then the higher models. At first this makes it sound like it has more bass, but you might find the others just have better more controlled bass.

Although I didn't have them at the same time, I have owned 683's and now have a set of CM7s as part of a second system. In the same room I feel the CM7 is a much better speaker then the 683. For me it wins in everything except bass output. I am surprised to find that you found little difference between the CM9 and the 683... Also, don't forget about the CM8..

[nirvana_1911]

I guess you are right about the "worth it" being subjective.
There are a lot of guys on this forum that can afford the CM and would take them over the 600 easily, the pricing is different in USA and Canada compared to Australia, I think the price gap is a little more.

I'm really listening closely to the bass in the 600's now, especially the 683 since you mentioned it not being as tight as CM/800 series.
On my initial impression of the CM9 and 683 A/B comparison, I'd have to say there is definitely not as much bass in the CM9 compared to the 683, I mean, I'm sure of it...
I may have to go and listen more carefully again.

I've gone from 685 to 683 for L/R and the difference is very pronounced, the 683 does everything better than the 685 for stereo music at the moment.

I guess at this point I have to do more listening and decide if its worth it for me or not, or if it is, save for a while and do it in 6 to 12 months, from what you've said, it's worth upgrading to.

[Dmantis]

Depending on how serious you are about your overall sound quality , the CM series is a step up from the 6 series in every way including bass.
As said above , the CM series produces more natural sounding bass. More isn't real or better unless you like that. I have done this very demo many times as the 683 are damn sexy nice speakers. But when you compare them directly to the CM9's , they fail everywhere. By themselves I think for the money they are very good sounding speakers.
If you are a theater guy , the CM series don't have a wall mount surround speaker. You will have to use In walls , In ceilings or the 6 series wall mount rears in the DS3's. having the Cm1's on stands for theater suck , they are to low and don't give you a theater like presentation. Building good wall shelves for them would be a good choice is looks are not an issue.

Good luck with your future choice or just staying with your 6 series. There are many things you can do to get them to sound their best.

[nirvana_1911]

Thanks for your reply Dmantis.
I know more is not better, and I am NOT mistaking the slightly more bass in 683 as better quality.
You make a lot of sense and I guess it does come to how serious I am about it.
I've got a lot of Emotiva gear and use it for both hifi and home theater, so both are important for me.
In-walls aren't really an option for me, I have the 685's on the FS-700/CM stands at the moment and I'm happy with that, if going CM's, I'd be looking at putting a pair of CM5's on the stands.

[emig5m]

For some strange reason I remember liking the bass better in the 683 over the 804 although the 804 is overall more open and out of the box sounding.... This probably due to the types of music I listen to and personal preference.

I say it all depends how much you are into this hobby. I'm actually contemplating selling off my 800's and dropping back down to the 600's because of my hobbies and priorities have changed plus I listen to mostly popular music that's poorly recorded and the 800's make it glaringly obvious how bad a recording can be like a HDTV to is to standard res video. Not my fault, I don't set the standards (there are none actually) to recording quality.... Although I fear once I no longer have them, I would greatly miss them at least for movies...

[bebop]

This is my first post in these forums. I recently bought a new 2 channel system consisting of the CM5 speakers.

When shopping for a 2 channel system, I did a comparison between the 685 and the CM5 (among many other speakers). And from my selection of music, jazz, rock, electronica, I thought the CM5's had more clearity and more air then the 685. The differences weren't huge to my ears, but enough for me to justify going for the CM5.

I also listened to the smaller bookshelfs of the CM1 and the 684, and to my mind the difference was bigger between the 6 series and the CM series with the smallest of the bookshelfs.

I really liked the CM8 the best of all, but couldn't justify the A$1K plus extra for it.

Now having the CM5 in my home, on good recording, I feel the bass is enough for me. To a point I only turn on the subwoofer when watching movies. The bass is tight and punchy. Trentemoller hasn't sounded so good before.

I had good deal with the CM5, but it is still a few hundred dollars more then the 6 series equivalent. But for me the CM5 got my toes tapping when listening to music, and that is what it's all about .

[Dmantis]

This is my first post in these forums. I recently bought a new 2 channel system consisting of the CM5 speakers.

When shopping for a 2 channel system, I did a comparison between the 685 and the CM5 (among many other speakers). And from my selection of music, jazz, rock, electronica, I thought the CM5's had more clearity and more air then the 685. The differences weren't huge to my ears, but enough for me to justify going for the CM5.

I also listened to the smaller bookshelfs of the CM1 and the 684, and to my mind the difference was bigger between the 6 series and the CM series with the smallest of the bookshelfs.

I really liked the CM8 the best of all, but couldn't justify the A$1K plus extra for it.

Now having the CM5 in my home, on good recording, I feel the bass is enough for me. To a point I only turn on the subwoofer when watching movies. The bass is tight and punchy. Trentemoller hasn't sounded so good before.

I had good deal with the CM5, but it is still a few hundred dollars more then the 6 series equivalent. But for me the CM5 got my toes tapping when listening to music, and that is what it's all about .

if your turning off the sub for music I'm gonna assume you don't have it dialed in properly. All CM series speakers including the CM9's benefit greatly from a high quality Sub. They do not dig deep enough to reproduce flu musical passes on their own.
Try calibrating the sub correctly or have someone who knows how to do it like a professional and experience your CM5's for the very first time . It will be well worth the effort.

[bebop]

You're probably right Dmantis. I'm a little new to this "hobby" and still learning my way through.

Bit by bit, soon I'll figure out how to dial the sub in to the setup for music.

[stuofsci02]

if your turning off the sub for music I'm gonna assume you don't have it dialed in properly. All CM series speakers including the CM9's benefit greatly from a high quality Sub. They do not dig deep enough to reproduce flu musical passes on their own.
Try calibrating the sub correctly or have someone who knows how to do it like a professional and experience your CM5's for the very first time . It will be well worth the effort.

Negative ghostrider... If I only had one sub, I would turn it off for music regardless of what speakers I had...

[windshear]

Negative ghostrider... If I only had one sub, I would turn it off for music regardless of what speakers I had...

Why ?

[JCLH]

What amp was powering the setup? If the 685 has more bass than a CM5, that sounds like an amp issieu to me. I have the CM1 and have had the 685. Now the CM1 has less bass than the 685 but the difference is not that big. The CM5 will have at least the same bass as the 685.

I went from 685 to CM7 in the front. The CM7 has much more detail and clarity. However, the price of a CM7 for me was about 700 euro's and the 683 will cost about the same. If you have to pay double is could be a different story. What are the pices in Australia for the 600 and CM series like?

[bebop]

In Aus, the rrp for the CM5 is just under double that of the 685. A$1699 vs A$899. So a big difference.

B&W speaker prices (and most other Hifi/HT gear) in Aus is very high compared to other countries.

[Dmantis]

Negative ghostrider... If I only had one sub, I would turn it off for music regardless of what speakers I had...

I'm assuming your new to this hobby and why a replay system is supposed to do. If you need any help , don't hesitate to ask, we are all here to share idea's and help one another to improve each others system and level of enjoyment.

[stuofsci02]

I'm assuming your new to this hobby and why a replay system is supposed to do. If you need any help , don't hesitate to ask, we are all here to share idea's and help one another to improve each others system and level of enjoyment.

I am guessing you have not compared no subs vs. one sub vs. two subs?

[bebop]

Dmantis, I'll take you up on the offer .

My gear is Mac Mini -> Rega DAC -> Rotel RA-1520 -> B&W CM5 and Wharfedale SW150 sub.

The sub is connected via the pre-out of the RA-1520. At the moment, I have set the sub to 55Hz and the volume at about half way.

I'm guessing the best way to integrate the sub is just to listen to each different setting. For the moment, I listen with the sub off during the night time listening sessions. Mainly not to disturb others in the house. But otherwise, I would love to be able to incorporate the sub in properly.

[emig5m]

Dmantis, I'll take you up on the offer .

My gear is Mac Mini -> Rega DAC -> Rotel RA-1520 -> B&W CM5 and Wharfedale SW150 sub.

The sub is connected via the pre-out of the RA-1520. At the moment, I have set the sub to 55Hz and the volume at about half way.

I'm guessing the best way to integrate the sub is just to listen to each different setting. For the moment, I listen with the sub off during the night time listening sessions. Mainly not to disturb others in the house. But otherwise, I would love to be able to incorporate the sub in properly.

No Audyssey or other auto room correction? At the least I would get a sine wave/test tone CD (might even be able to find something online for free). I use the JM Labs one... Sweep through each tone and they should all sound at equal volume. You also shouldn't be able to audibly localize the sub. It should just be a tone starting at low and getting higher and higher, but at the same volume...

At first I hated subs with a 2-channel setup because the sub always sounded out of place and drew attention, but then one day I was determined to give a sub setup for 2 channel music to where I liked it. I learned a lot and actually experimented with different settings and sub positions for months taking mental notes of what settings had what kind of effect right down to the phase adjustment.

That's the main problem I think with the crowd that's against using subs with 2-channel is that they've possibly never heard a properly integrated sub and that it's too hard and time consuming to 'get right' your first time and give up because their system already sounds good enough without and never get to or learn the full process of integrating their sub - can't say I blame 'em, been there. Heck, I went seven years with owning a sub but being against them for 2-channel because it always sounded off balance and out of place.

Although now that I 'got it' and have my routine for setup down to more of a science, it's much easier and quicker for me to setup a sub. Of course, Audyssey and other room corrections definitely help, but I'll admit, I add a little EQ on top of Audyssey for personal tonal preference (actually not a lot, very minor tweaking). But that has nothing to do with using a sub or not, I still use a little EQ for personal preference regardless.

But when I have my sub right, I can cycle through most of the crossover points and be hard pressed to hear much of an audible difference until I get to the extreme ends of the crossover adjustment - that's when I think you have sub/main integration pretty close to perfect is when there's almost no change in sound sweeping through most of the crossover points. Well that works more like that when you already have a good position for your mains for bass which reminds me....

Another nice thing about using a sub which is actually a requirement with my current speaker positioning in my new room is that you can have your mains where they image the best but the bass might not be too good or punchy so you can separate most of the bass from the mains and into the sub and have more flexibility with placement and getting a better result.

[bebop]

Thanks emig5m. I'll give the sine test tones a try when I get some free time at home and post an update