Do I need a Center Channel

**jyj** · 17 December 2010, 11:34 Friday

I have a similar situation with my plasma TV mounted over the fireplace. I've been using 802Ds without a center for several months. At first, I wasn't really certain that I would be happy without a center. I had to experiment some with the cross over and an SPL meter. After a making a few tweaks, I don't notice nor miss the center at all at this point.

If I decide to get a center channel in the future, it was recommended to me that I get a B&W Signature 8NT as an alternative. I hope this helps.

**John22614** · 17 December 2010, 11:36 Friday

Without a center the sound will be out of balance when seated outside the sweet spot. I suggest you audition without a center to see how wide the soundstage is in your room......I suspect you will ultimately want to get one.

If cost is not too much of an issue, go with the 803's and the HTM2, remount the plasma and you will have a dream come true set up that will amaze you for years to come.

**spykids777** · 17 December 2010, 23:51 Friday

I am thinking of getting the 803D for now. Does anyone have experience of pairing it with the HTM4 - since the separation between the 2 mains will be 6ft only and HTM2 might be too wide of a center channel between the 2 803D kept just 6ft apart. Any opinions?

Thanks.

**specialized** · 18 December 2010, 03:42 Saturday

[QUOTE=spykids777]Hi,

I am new to this forum. Have learned a lot going through the diff queries. I am thinking of buying B&W 800 series spekaers for my Home theater. My room is about 16ft wide by 27 ft long - half family room and half kitchen. My TV is a 60inch Pioneer Kuro Elite mounted on a fireplace 11inch above the mantle with the depth of the mantle being 11inches also. I am going to use this for ~60%movies and 40% music.

Separation of my main speakers are going to be about 6ft - 7ft. My options are:
1. 803D with no center - recommended by my installer since according to him there is not enough separation among my mains and with the imagery of the 803D being so good according to him I will not miss the center channel. Also as per the dimensions given for the mantle and the TV I do not have enough space for the HTM2- it will involve some TV remounting :roll:

Im using 803s in room 5,5m x 4m. My speakers are about 2,5 - 3.0 meters between each others. Im using HTM3S center. But if i have this mind when i was purchasing the speakers maybe i'll go without center.. I found out that with good electronics imaging is very very good, so maybe the center is needed in bigger space. Also the best idea is to get 803D and to u use for a while (few monhts). After that period ask the dealer to get a center speaker on test.. U'll decide by u'r self..

Also when i start to buy 800 series speakers i was in to surround mode

Now i realized that with good equimpent even in stereo is wonderfull imaging/stage that maybe if i start this from scratch i'll go just for stereo.. (even for movies).Also 90% of my listening is in stereo..

Greetings

**magicvinny** · 18 December 2010, 12:26 Saturday

I have the B&W 805D. I'm using them without a centerspeaker.

My previous set was the B&W XT-series(XTC and XT8). I sold the XT8 and bought the 805D. I kept the XTC and used it as a centerspeaker. But...the difference in sound was huge. So I sold the XTC too and uptil now I'm running the 805D without a center.

I personally think it's not the best solution. You really need the centerspeaker. I don't know if it's the case with the 803D but I ordered the HTM4D.

The voices should come from the center! That's not always the case right now. I just don't have the real home cinema experience. So I hope the speaker will be deliverd very soon.

Denon 3808
Rotel 1575
Pioneer 508XD

**Rod#S** · 18 December 2010, 13:38 Saturday

Originally posted by spykids777

Hi,

I am new to this forum. Have learned a lot going through the diff queries. I am thinking of buying B&W 800 series spekaers for my Home theater. My room is about 16ft wide by 27 ft long - half family room and half kitchen. My TV is a 60inch Pioneer Kuro Elite mounted on a fireplace 11inch above the mantle with the depth of the mantle being 11inches also. I am going to use this for ~60%movies and 40% music.

Separation of my main speakers are going to be about 6ft - 7ft. My options are:
1. 803D with no center - recommended by my installer since according to him there is not enough separation among my mains and with the imagery of the 803D being so good according to him I will not miss the center channel. Also as per the dimensions given for the mantle and the TV I do not have enough space for the HTM2- it will involve some TV remounting :roll:
2. 804D with HTM4.
3. 804D with the HTM2 and get the remounting done.

I would appreciate any inputs since I am new to this.
Thanks in advance for reading this long post.

I went through this a couple of weeks back. I am about to start upgrading my older Paradigm speakers to the new 800 series and because I can't afford 7 speakers at the moment I chose to focus on the front of the room first. I wanted to get 3 802Di's but like you have I have 60" Pioneer Kuro tv but unlike you mine is on a stand so I could not place a center 802Di in the center. When I asked my dealer about this he said he did not recommend it and he also asked the B&W rep and he agreed, not having a center speaker located in the center is something to avoid if at all possible. So the suggestion was to try no center so over 2 weeks I removed my center from my steup and gave it a go. In the end I was not happy with what I was hearing, I found the sound that would have been going to the center when sent to the mains would get overwhelmed (i.e dialog) when excessive music or ambient effects (i.e explosions, etc) was presnt making it hard to make out the dialog. Now on the flip side when there wasn't a lot going on in the left/right the dialog coming from the left/right speakers was excellent, creating a perfect phantom center. Also I found if you were not setting directly in the center of the 2 mains it was to easy to localize the "center" sound to one of the main speakers and not the other. So it was a really worth while experiment and I will be getting the HTM2Di. You may want to try and do the experiment yourself with your current speakers. As you can read above my post people do just fine with a phantom setup and like it very much so this comes down to being a personal thing.

Thanks,

Rod

**spykids777** · 31 December 2010, 13:31 Friday

Thanks for all your replies. I went ahead and purchased the 803D and the HTM4D. Per the B&W rep HTM4 are designed to pair with the 803 and 804 and 805D whereas HTM2 are designed to pair with the 800, 802 and 803D.

I still have to set them up and see how the 3 sound together!!

**emig5m** · 01 January 2011, 01:53 Saturday

I've tried a phantom center with my 804S and definitely liked the sound/experience much better with the HTM3S center in the mix for native surround tracks. Yea, the 804S images so good in stereo when a good sweet spot is dialed in to where I've found myself to get up and put my ear next to the center speaker to see if it was playing. My main beef with a phantom center is not so much if you move/sit off axis but the re-matrixing/re-processing of the original signal.

I don't know if it's just these cheapish' AVRs and their crappy re-processing or what, but I get a sound degradation effect similar to re-matrixing/expanding stereo into a false surround sound (Dolby Music for example). It just gives me a more fake/phony/cheesy sound. No matter what I try with most re-matrixing, I always prefer the sound of playing a track in it's native format with minimal re-processing.

So it's not the fact that my 804S mains can't image spectacularly on their own in stereo, it's the crappy on the fly re-processing/re-matrixing I don't like about using a phantom center. If the source is native stereo, I like the sound best playing it back in stereo. If it's native 5.1, then 5.1.... I really wish I could be happy with on the fly re-processing because I would love to utilize my full surround speaker system for all my stereo CDs but I have yet to ever hear any channel re-matrixing to not sound phony to me... Maybe good for a party with some more SPL is desired, but for critical listening, no way...

**emig5m** · 01 January 2011, 01:57 Saturday

Originally posted by spykids777

Thanks for all your replies. I went ahead and purchased the 803D and the HTM4D. Per the B&W rep HTM4 are designed to pair with the 803 and 804 and 805D whereas HTM2 are designed to pair with the 800, 802 and 803D.

I disagree with that. I feel a FST midded main should be paired with a FST midded center. Although I would definitely rather have a real discreet center speaker that isn't perfectly matched then use a phantom center and rely on re-matrixing the center info into the mains. One of the main things I love about my 804S/HTM3S is that all the drivers are the same, including the bass drivers.

**stuofsci02** · 01 January 2011, 10:39 Saturday

I am using an HTM4S as a center with my 804S, and as much as I would prefer to have an HTM3S, believe it or not, the HTM4S is a pretty darn good match. Definately a better match then the 683/HTM61 combo we both used to have.

Also if space it an issue then I can definately see the the HTM4 being used.

**tyreman** · 01 January 2011, 12:30 Saturday

Really depends a lot on how you are using the entire package, how the speakers are placed/set up including the receiver settings, seating positions availability etc etc

For me here with matrix 804's(1 pair fronts-5' 7 1/2" apart, 1 pair surrounds) with rear 602's

The '1700 is set to pIIx music all the time (for tv and fm)
I watch few dvd's, borrow the kids xbox when necessary.

So here I can do it
But individual systems, setups and preference(s) may vary

**dukester** · 01 January 2011, 15:49 Saturday

I upgraded from the HTM61 to the HTM2Di (an exponential jump) so i cannot comment on the HTM4Di, only read many good owner/expert reviews on it. If your dealer has the upgrade pgm where if you upgrade w/in a hear they'll give you full credit for your purchase, consider the HTM2Di as you'll cover yourself down the road for any future upgrades to your mains (802/800) and have IMO the best match short of another 803Di. In any case, congrats :T What finish did you order?

**spykids777** · 04 January 2011, 12:17 Tuesday

Piano black - it does look good!!

**dukester** · 04 January 2011, 16:13 Tuesday

Originally posted by spykids777

Piano black - it does look good!!

Nice! I've always loved that finish...just too chickensh*t to buy them...i'm sure you'll be investing in some good microfiber cloths and auto grade protectant 8) Hope all is well with your 803Di? Keep the upgrade pgm in mind for your HTM4Di (if you need more grunt) in case your dealer honors it. Again, congrats :T

One other thing; if your room is 16' wide, why space the speakers only 6-7' apart?

Do I need a Center Channel

Do I need a Center Channel

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