802D capacitor upgrade - A crazy idea or not?

[ShadowZA]

As I understand things (and I could be incorrect here) the 800D is unique in that it is the only one (of the old series) to use the M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold capacitor for the all important midrange section of the crossover network. Both the 800D and 802D share the M-Caps for bass and the M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold for the tweeters. The midrange in the 802D uses an inferior M-Cap in it's make up.

Is it probable that much of the performance improvements in the 800D is directly attributable to the superior capacitors? If this is true then a question of mine would have originally been: What effect would there be in upgrading my present 802D midrange capacitors to M-Cap Silver/Gold ones?

Of course, the new 800 series Di range, as I understand, use Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil capacitors in their crossover networks which are top-of-the line. I do not know the capacitor configuration of the new 802Di but my question would thus be amended to account for, and ask the effect of, upgrading my present 802D capacitor configuration to the very best available (which might include the Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil capacitor model).

I am not qualified in the electronic engineering field and so I could be way off base here. I am, however, curious.

Upgrading to the 802Di is not an option for me. Upgrading L & R to 800D & remain with 802D as centre? No! I'd rather not do this due to mismatching height & space issues. I've also grown quite fond of the 802D's.

Any thoughts on this will be muchly appreciated.

[ShadowZA]

The following is a reply which I received from B&W:

I feel there are two areas maybe to be commented on;

One is that I think you may have the wrong impression about which capacitors are in which models. There is no 'superior' capacitor compliment in the new 802D2 over and above the previous 802D. Nor is there a 'superior' capacitor compliment in the previous 800D over and above the previous 802D. These point I think would therefore not really tally with some of your theories.

Also, there is a natural tendency to presume that a more expensive component must make something better. The listening and auditioning of components for speakers would generally be 'blind' so that the audition would not be biased by the perceived 'value' of a component.

I hope these discussions are useful, and taken as intended, as constructive dialogue.

Regarding the first point ... Agree? Disagree? Comments muchly appreciated.

[beden1]

The following is a reply which I received from B&W:

I feel there are two areas maybe to be commented on;

One is that I think you may have the wrong impression about which capacitors are in which models. There is no 'superior' capacitor compliment in the new 802D2 over and above the previous 802D. Nor is there a 'superior' capacitor compliment in the previous 800D over and above the previous 802D. These point I think would therefore not really tally with some of your theories.

Also, there is a natural tendency to presume that a more expensive component must make something better. The listening and auditioning of components for speakers would generally be 'blind' so that the audition would not be biased by the perceived 'value' of a component.

I hope these discussions are useful, and taken as intended, as constructive dialogue.

Regarding the first point ... Agree? Disagree? Comments muchly appreciated.

One of the best posts I have read on this forum. Thank you.

Perception versus reality! So, if the new Di Series produces a superior sound as compared to the D Series, is the improvement truly audible, or perceived because they are a new series?

[Canuck525]

I saw a thread where a guy did just that. The area he noticed the most improvement was the clarity in the midrange.

[ShadowZA]

My pleasure, beden1. :T

One line of thought against a capacitor upgrade could be that caps have other parameters besides the capacitance and changing them could upset the balance B&W most likely spent hours trying to perfect. But then the intention is to stay with Mundorf, just interchange with better quality ones ... surely this would generate improvements ... or would the crossover design need to be re-tweaked in order to get the response flat and the phase correct throughout the crossover region?

In this thread http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=36452 aarsoe mentions that he upgraded his 802D caps (see quote):

... I have upgrade my 802D's with new Mundorf cross over caps from their silver/gold/oil range. In my opinion that is the single biggest improvement over the D model.
SO the result? Much improved clarity, better focus, more depth. The sound stage have been moved 3 feet forward and is more engaging.
...

Canuck525, if the thread you refer to is someone other than aarsoe ... then we already have 2 independent people who have done this. And ... this stirs my curiosity further.

[aarsoe]

Well, I think I need to add a comment or two since my name is being mentioned..

The difference between the 800 and 802 models, beside the bigger cabinet and different bass drivers, are that the mid range capacitors are somewhat different. Better component quality is the ONLY difference. (2x 22uF in Supreme in the 800 vs a single 47uF in M-cap in the 802 which a lower ranking version at a much lower price point. There is also a 10uF Supreme capacitor used as well, but that is identical in both the 800 & the 802 models)...
So if someone claims the mid range is better on the 800 model, then it can only be attributed to the component difference.
If you cannot hear any difference between a 800x and the 802x model in the mid range then the subject is moot anyway.

Now the thing I did was to change the tweeter capacitor to the ones used in the new 802Di model - namely the gold/silver/oil versions for the 4,7uF, and the 10uF used in the mid range was also replaced to a similar version. That is in fact not what B&W have done, since they still use Supremes versions for that one - and finally I also change the 47 uF to 2x 22uF as in the 800 model.

Now comment was base on the change of the first two components alone, and I still stand by that. However I now feel that the speaker have improved even more with the last change as well.

Would I recommend that everybody should do this? No, absolutely not. Fooling around with a speaker at this price level is not a recommendable thing. I however did it as I love fiddling around and wont get the new 8xxDi models for some time...

[RebelMan]

Perception versus reality! So, if the new Di Series produces a superior sound as compared to the D Series, is the improvement truly audible, or perceived because they are a new series?

The sum of the electrical and mechanical improvements are truly audible. By what measure (minor to major) is of course subjective. Cumulatively for me it was a modest improvement but over the areas in which the 802D was weakest and that to some may make a huge difference.

Of course unless you keep your measuring instrument of choice (aka your ears) healthy they may not be as good at registering the changes as they would have been. People tend to forget that their hearing can change too. I think it would be interesting to see the correlation between equipment changes and peoples hearing. As for me I check annually so I know where I stand and so far it has been steady as she goes. Got audiogram?

[beden1]

The sum of the electrical and mechanical improvements are truly audible. By what measure (minor to major) is of course subjective. Cumulatively for me it was a modest improvement but over the areas in which the 802D was weakest and that to some may make a huge difference.

Of course unless you keep your measuring instrument of choice (aka your ears) healthy they may not be as good at registering the changes as they would have been. People tend to forget that their hearing can change too. I think it would be interesting to see the correlation between equipment changes and peoples hearing. As for me I check annually so I know where I stand and so far it has been steady as she goes. Got audiogram?

I know my ears are not as good as they were before I went to a recent Paul McCartney concert. Between the amped up music and the three women sitting right behind me screaming at the top of their lungs during the entire concert, I may now be happy with just a Bose setup! :E

[stuofsci02]

Were the two 22 uF capacitors in parallel? If so this would be equal to a single 44 uF, not the 47 uF that came with the 802D. This would change the crossover point..

[aarsoe]

Yes - the 2x 22 uF capacitors are what B&W uses themself. So there is a slight chance in the crossover freq, but not anything significant...

[ShadowZA]

Thank you for the comments. Useful? You bet!!! Would I do this? No! Not now (or in the forseeable future), anyway.

I've recently effected acoustic treatments in addition to one major electronic upgrade and the sound quality improvements (to me) have not been insignificant. I'm happy to cruise at this level and focus on new music pieces while enjoying the status quo to the max. But .... I'm noting this capacitor info ... just in case.

[Canuck525]

Aarsoe
Would you be able to post some pictures? I am sure we would all love to see them...

[aarsoe]

Maybe, but not within the next two weeks. Simply to swamped with things to do...
In any case you just need to take a look at the B&W service manuals listed elsewhere on this forum. All needed info to compare the 800 vs the 802 is there and photo's Of the crossovers are easy to google.

[bigburner]

802D capacitor upgrade - A crazy idea or not?

Any thoughts on this will be muchly appreciated.

Hey Lucien, you could just be a crazy mixed up guy.

Nigel.

[ShadowZA]

Hey Lucien, you could just be a crazy mixed up guy.

Nigel.

... and needing to "crossover" and spread the craziness around a bit.