What centre speaker for B&W 803S?

[Palforever]

hello,
Just want to know what is the next best centre speaker for the 803s,besides the htm3s?Been trying to get the htm3s to no avail new or used.Thanks.

[MikeFL52]

How about another 803S if you have the space?
If not and you cannot get a HTM3S then the only choices are really the HTM4S or the HTM2D which is really meant as a diamond compatible speaker.
Maybe the CM Centre 2 would match reasonably sonically if not from a looks perspective.
I would not recommend going with another brand.

[timjclark]

I'm using a HTM4S with my 803S's and I'm very happy with it. I have never heard the 3S and I know that is the best match, but 4S is working fine for me. When I have the $$ to replace my tv stand with something would accommodate the 3S, I'll probably be in the hunt to get a 3S.

[Palforever]

How about another 803S if you have the space?
If not and you cannot get a HTM3S then the only choices are really the HTM4S or the HTM2D which is really meant as a diamond compatible speaker.
Maybe the CM Centre 2 would match reasonably sonically if not from a looks perspective.
I would not recommend going with another brand.

Mike,i have been looking for the HTM3s new or used and its hard to get it now.I woud`nt like to go with another 803s for the centre,its just too much. I also been looking for the AWS825 and the 805s and its hard now to get one.May be i will just get the HTM4S if ever it come along

[Palforever]

Tim,how does the HTM4S sound sonically with the 803s.Does it match perfectly with the 803s?

[John22614]

I have the HTM4s with the 804's and it sounds pretty good, the voices are natural and clear but the depth and over all tone is not quite as good as the 804s mains. But, overall, I am quite happy with it. It also sounds very good with SACD discs.

[timjclark]

Tim,how does the HTM4S sound sonically with the 803s.Does it match perfectly with the 803s?

That is an excellent question. I have read many people talk about perfect matching of center channels and I have to admit that I'm not sure how people determine this. I think it sounds very good.

Let me put it this way, about once a week I jump up and put my ear to left and then the right to make sure they are still on and contributing. The L & R are on a separate 2-channel amp so it is possible for them to be off. I suppose the fact that I cannot tell where my sound is coming from means that my soundstage is blending well.

So, here is my question back to everyone, how do you determine if your center channel is a good sonic match for your front speaker?

[stuofsci02]

That is an excellent question. I have read many people talk about perfect matching of center channels and I have to admit that I'm not sure how people determine this. I think it sounds very good.

Let me put it this way, about once a week I jump up and put my ear to left and then the right to make sure they are still on and contributing. The L & R are on a separate 2-channel amp so it is possible for them to be off. I suppose the fact that I cannot tell where my sound is coming from means that my soundstage is blending well.

So, here is my question back to everyone, how do you determine if your center channel is a good sonic match for your front speaker?

I setup my AVR/Blu-Ray player with no center channel (only L/R and rears in my 5.1 systems) so that it mixes the center channel into the mains. I then sit directly in the middle (the hotspot for stereo listening). This is called running a phantom center, but it only works for the person sitting in the middle between the L/R speakers. I then listen to it.

Then I turn my center back on and remain in the same seating position. If the output is worse then with the center channel off, then chances are your center is not a good match for your L/R. If it sounds the same then you've got a good match. Now you can move to other seating positions and have the benefit of the center.

[John22614]

I test the center a little differently by comparing the dialogue from the center in dolby mode to the dialogue in stereo mode while sitting in the sweet spot. If the tone (or timbre) sounds the same or very close, then I have a good match. Not surprisingly, the HTM4 in my case sounds nearly identical to the 804s and presumably the 803s in your system should timbre match well also. I suspect you will notice a mild loss in depth and richness but it will nevertheless blend in nicely.

[timjclark]

I test the center a little differently by comparing the dialogue from the center in dolby mode to the dialogue in stereo mode while sitting in the sweet spot. If the tone (or timbre) sounds the same or very close, then I have a good match. Not surprisingly, the HTM4 in my case sounds nearly identical to the 804s and presumably the 803s in your system should timbre match well also. I suspect you will notice a mild loss in depth and richness but it will nevertheless blend in nicely.

I like that! It makes perfect sense. I'll bet my wife would rather that I do NOT perform this test.

Do you have a favorite movie/scene for this? For me I'm thinking something that I have on BluRay - maybe something from The Aviator.

[stuofsci02]

I test the center a little differently by comparing the dialogue from the center in dolby mode to the dialogue in stereo mode while sitting in the sweet spot. If the tone (or timbre) sounds the same or very close, then I have a good match. Not surprisingly, the HTM4 in my case sounds nearly identical to the 804s and presumably the 803s in your system should timbre match well also. I suspect you will notice a mild loss in depth and richness but it will nevertheless blend in nicely.

Yeah... Thats basically the same thing..

[timjclark]

Yeah... Thats basically the same thing..

Funny thing - I meant to reply to your message stuofsci02, but I just realized that there was a more recent message that I had quoted. oops. Thanks for your input too!

[stuofsci02]

Funny thing - I meant to reply to your message stuofsci02, but I just realized that there was a more recent message that I had quoted. oops. Thanks for your input too!

Hey no worries.. Johns method is quite similar and should provide just as good results.

[Palforever]

I test the center a little differently by comparing the dialogue from the center in dolby mode to the dialogue in stereo mode while sitting in the sweet spot. If the tone (or timbre) sounds the same or very close, then I have a good match. Not surprisingly, the HTM4 in my case sounds nearly identical to the 804s and presumably the 803s in your system should timbre match well also. I suspect you will notice a mild loss in depth and richness but it will nevertheless blend in nicely.

John,so timber play a major part too,right?I have the 803S cherry,will a rosenut HTM3s effect the sonic or will it sound slightly different from the cherry?Sorry for the dumb question. ops:

[stuofsci02]

John,so timber play a major part too,right?I have the 803S cherry,will a rosenut HTM3s effect the sonic or will it sound slightly different from the cherry?Sorry for the dumb question. ops:

Hey Palforever,

I think you have confused Timbre with Timber.

Timbre matching means matching the "tonal quality" of the speaker and although the type of wood (timber) can certainly play a role I don't think that was what he was getting at. See definition for timbre...

Since the 800 series speaker is veneered only you won't have any problem timbre matching two speakers where the difference is the veneer. You would be well matches with the HTM3S of any veneer.

Cheers,

Stuart

[emig5m]

John,so timber play a major part too,right?I have the 803S cherry,will a rosenut HTM3s effect the sonic or will it sound slightly different from the cherry?Sorry for the dumb question. ops:

Well, cherry is the most bass shy, but most forward in the top end. Black ash has the most bass, way too much mid-bass energy IMO, and also has the most laid back mids and highs (possibly the smoothest highs but makes for a duller and boring sound not to mention you loose some fine detail). Rosenut is the most balanced - it's not that rosenut has more laid back mids and highs than cherry, but more balanced bass makes it seem that way. All-in-all, Rosenut will be the best all-around, it won't excel at one single type of recording, but will be most balanced from recording to recording if you catch my drift. Black ash is good for jazz, but will make opera sound duller than normal and very lifeless. Go with cherry for opera. Rosenut will do all those fine, but will mainly excel with decent recorded popular music.

Hope this help. :T

[John22614]

Well said Emig5m......now, the new piano black diamonds present a whole new set of issues, ......from what I understand, they really sound good a night, but during the day they're rather bland. However, if you aim them toward the setting sun, they perform quite well at twilight too.

[stuofsci02]

Well, cherry is the most bass shy, but most forward in the top end. Black ash has the most bass, way too much mid-bass energy IMO, and also has the most laid back mids and highs (possibly the smoothest highs but makes for a duller and boring sound not to mention you loose some fine detail). Rosenut is the most balanced - it's not that rosenut has more laid back mids and highs than cherry, but more balanced bass makes it seem that way. All-in-all, Rosenut will be the best all-around, it won't excel at one single type of recording, but will be most balanced from recording to recording if you catch my drift. Black ash is good for jazz, but will make opera sound duller than normal and very lifeless. Go with cherry for opera. Rosenut will do all those fine, but will mainly excel with decent recorded popular music.

Hope this help. :T

And here I was picking color based on visual preference....

I think you must be kidding right??

[mb225]

Well, cherry is the most bass shy, but most forward in the top end. Black ash has the most bass, way too much mid-bass energy IMO, and also has the most laid back mids and highs (possibly the smoothest highs but makes for a duller and boring sound not to mention you loose some fine detail). Rosenut is the most balanced - it's not that rosenut has more laid back mids and highs than cherry, but more balanced bass makes it seem that way. All-in-all, Rosenut will be the best all-around, it won't excel at one single type of recording, but will be most balanced from recording to recording if you catch my drift. Black ash is good for jazz, but will make opera sound duller than normal and very lifeless. Go with cherry for opera. Rosenut will do all those fine, but will mainly excel with decent recorded popular music.

Hope this help. :T

I really hope this is a joke!? :rofl:

You do realize that the 800 series cabinets are not actually made of wood. The only wood in the cabinet is a very thin veneer on the outside for appearance. All of the different wood types are exactly the same on the inside. My guess is they use some kind of very dense fiber-board for the actual structure. The veneer is probably less than 1/8 of an inch thick and should make no difference sonically.

[mb225]

How about another 803S if you have the space?
If not and you cannot get a HTM3S then the only choices are really the HTM4S or the HTM2D which is really meant as a diamond compatible speaker.
Maybe the CM Centre 2 would match reasonably sonically if not from a looks perspective.
I would not recommend going with another brand.

I agree. I think your best bet would be to try the CM Centre 2. I heard from many people that the reason B&W dropped the 800s' was b/c the new CM series had a very similar sound.

I'm running 803s in a stereo and if I ever add a center channel it will most likely be a CM Centre 2.

[jamesdaman]

You can get an HTM4S in cherry here in the uk at a dealer in hull for £700. Or an HTM2D for £1850 in sheffield. They are about just hard to find, i just got my self an HTM4S in black..... I fricken LOVE it lol

[John22614]

If you can find a new HTM4s I would jump on it if I were you....or keep your eye on Audiogon and see if a good used one pops up there. They are a very good speaker and will go nicely with your 803's.

[Palforever]

My B&W dealer recommend me the HTM4D and i doubt it will blend in nicely with 803s though.Manage to get one and it cost AU$3400 + AU$400 for shipping.Try to get from MODIO but they don`t do international shipping.Anyway,i just need to get one of this before it really become a rare item.

[cneal007]

I am running a Monitor Audio Platinum. The B&W didn't fit the stand. I have tried the method of the phantom center compared to adding it and the results were inconclusive It didn't really sound different, just not as full. But my HTM3S didn't sound as full either. I only play music in 2 channel to that is out of the equation. But the nice part was it fits inside the cabinet so I have a clean look. The system sound significantly better without the constant nagging about how it looks in my left ear. Last month was Plasma's for everyone month.

[stuofsci02]

I am running a Monitor Audio Platinum. The B&W didn't fit the stand. I have tried the method of the phantom center compared to adding it and the results were inconclusive It didn't really sound different, just not as full. But my HTM3S didn't sound as full either. I only play music in 2 channel to that is out of the equation. But the nice part was it fits inside the cabinet so I have a clean look. The system sound significantly better without the constant nagging about how it looks in my left ear. Last month was Plasma's for everyone month.

Sounds like the monitor audio might not me too bad a match.. I have found if the phantom center sounds the same as with the center running then the match is good. It will sound a little fuller with the center because of the extra base drivers, but for you maybe more since you indicated it is in a cabinet which is probably adding a bit more bass too..

[Skyblue]

I really hope this is a joke!? :rofl:

You do realize that the 800 series cabinets are not actually made of wood. The only wood in the cabinet is a very thin veneer on the outside for appearance. All of the different wood types are exactly the same on the inside. My guess is they use some kind of very dense fiber-board for the actual structure. The veneer is probably less than 1/8 of an inch thick and should make no difference sonically.

No, he's absolute right. I have even observed it with cables and carpets as well. Orange cables and carpets made the bass a little less boomy and more controlled. Whereas black shiny carpets made the bass boomy. Rosenut cables are as emig5m says, the most balanced. Personally I prefer blue cables with red carpets.

[stuofsci02]

No, he's absolute right. I have even observed it with cables and carpets as well. Orange cables and carpets made the bass a little less boomy and more controlled. Whereas black shiny carpets made the bass boomy. Rosenut cables are as emig5m says, the most balanced. Personally I prefer blue cables with red carpets.

Now Now... :roll:

[Skyblue]

Now Now... :roll:

No worries, he can handle it

[cneal007]

Sounds like the monitor audio might not me too bad a match.. I have found if the phantom center sounds the same as with the center running then the match is good. It will sound a little fuller with the center because of the extra base drivers, but for you maybe more since you indicated it is in a cabinet which is probably adding a bit more bass too..

I brought the htm3s out of the basement for another pass on the testing today to see if I could really tell a difference. The answer is yes there is a difference in sound but I couldn't say I actually heard one matching the mains better. What I did notice is that the voices seemed match the people on the screen better with the monitor audio speaker. But I think this is because the speaker sits in the same plane as the plasma with the L & R speakers also in that same plane. Due to the height of the htm3s, I have it put it on a stand in front of the screen (not in the cabinet). When I moved the side speakers to the same plane as the htm3s, the sound seemed to moved back to the screen (even though all three speakers were 3 feet in front of it). The only conclusion I can make is that if I want to run the htm3s I need to move the L and R speakers to the same plane.

[stuofsci02]

I brought the htm3s out of the basement for another pass on the testing today to see if I could really tell a difference. The answer is yes there is a difference in sound but I couldn't say I actually heard one matching the mains better. What I did notice is that the voices seemed match the people on the screen better with the monitor audio speaker. But I think this is because the speaker sits in the same plane as the plasma with the L & R speakers also in that same plane. Due to the height of the htm3s, I have it put it on a stand in front of the screen (not in the cabinet). When I moved the side speakers to the same plane as the htm3s, the sound seemed to moved back to the screen (even though all three speakers were 3 feet in front of it). The only conclusion I can make is that if I want to run the htm3s I need to move the L and R speakers to the same plane.

Your L & R speakers should be on the same plane or in front of your center so that the distance to the middle listening position is equal for all speakers. You may then toe in a necessary to get that full center in stereo...

But... If the Monitor Audio speaker fits the bill.. by all means stay with what works best for the WAF.. But you still didn't tell me if your HTM3S is rosenut.. :lol:

[emig5m]

I really hope this is a joke!? :rofl:

You do realize that the 800 series cabinets are not actually made of wood. The only wood in the cabinet is a very thin veneer on the outside for appearance. All of the different wood types are exactly the same on the inside. My guess is they use some kind of very dense fiber-board for the actual structure. The veneer is probably less than 1/8 of an inch thick and should make no difference sonically.

I seen pictures and video of how they form the wood into the curved shape (it's even in the B&W catalog). It looks like multiple thin layers of wood that's machine pressed into a form making rounded plywood (what it appears to me). But it's the veneer that adds a particular "color" to the sound hence where the term coloration of sound came from. :rofl:

[Skyblue]

I seen pictures and video of how they form the wood into the curved shape (it's even in the B&W catalog). It looks like multiple thin layers of wood that's machine pressed into a form making rounded plywood (what it appears to me). But it's the veneer that adds a particular "color" to the sound hence where the term coloration of sound came from. :rofl:

Actually, the lightwaves interferes with the soundwaves. Different colors equals different lightwave spectrums producing different "colorations". This is why music sounds the late at night with a good drink and the light turned all they way down. The coloration is simply not there anymore, and the music (and alcohol) can be enjoyed in its pure form.

So to conclude. Don't bother too muc with amplifiers and speakers. Just turn off the lights.

[altanpsx]

What do you say about the idea of using VM6 or FPM4 as center speaker with 803d . (I do not have enough space). CM2 is my first opinion but I bought a turntable and so there is no room for center speaker. I am planning to put center above tv. That's why I am looking for a thinner speaker. Did any of you ever try or demo this kind of setup?

[AV-OCD]

What do you say about the idea of using VM6 or FPM4 as center speaker with 803d . (I do not have enough space). CM2 is my first opinion but I bought a turntable and so there is no room for center speaker. I am planning to put center above tv. That's why I am looking for a thinner speaker. Did any of you ever try or demo this kind of setup?

Rather than try to fit the speaker into the current space, think about how you can get the space to fit the right speaker. I suggest hiring a cabinet maker to build you a riser for the TV sit on that is tall enough to house the HTM3s or the CM Centre 2. That is, assuming that you have a flat panel TV of some sort that sits on a stand. Or wall mount the TV above your current cabinet high enough to give clearance for the new center. I've done both as I changed speaker systems over the years.

Here I had the console under the TV custom made with a opening large enough to house the Paradigm center I owned at the time.



Then I decided to wall mount the TV, so I had the cabinet rebuilt so that the center speaker would sit on top (shortened the height of the cabinet).



Then, when I went with a larger center, all I had to do was adjust the height of the TV on the wall mount (just loosen a few screws to move it up or down).

[mb225]

No, he's absolute right. I have even observed it with cables and carpets as well. Orange cables and carpets made the bass a little less boomy and more controlled. Whereas black shiny carpets made the bass boomy. Rosenut cables are as emig5m says, the most balanced. Personally I prefer blue cables with red carpets.

I just got some shiny new blue cables... Now I need to talk with my wife about getting a new red carpet for my listening room.

Who knew! It must be something with the dye used in the manufacturing process. I'm guessing the blue and red dyes are more porous and therefore create pockets that can trap the bad sound waves. Once all the bad sounds are trapped only the good sound waves remain in the room. :stupid2: