Introducing the P5 - B&W's new Headphones

[btf1980]

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=4534

[rgbyhkr]

And computer speakers:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.co.uk/display.aspx?infid=4503

B&W Blog entry about the Headphones:

http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/theinsider/?p=241

What HIFI article about both:

http://whathifi.com/News/Bowers-and-Wilkins-first-headphones-and-desktop-speakers-break-cover/

No pricing listed, but I saw the article when it first went up and I can swear that it initially gave a price for the speakers at £379.

Jeff

[audioqueso]

Man.. that's kinda disappointing. They really are going for mass media now. Evening the wording of the description. Basically... if they're going for that price that you mentioned, they better beat the Sennheiser 600/650s.

PC speakers... but doesn't the new Zeppelin have a USB DAC as well?

[wgriel]

Man.. that's kinda disappointing. They really are going for mass media now. Evening the wording of the description. Basically... if they're going for that price that you mentioned, they better beat the Sennheiser 600/650s.

Yeah - the Zeppelin is one thing, but the headphone market is pretty crowded with some excellent products already out there (Shure, Sennheiser, Grado). If these aren't price competitive, I don't think they'll get far in this market.

PC speakers... but doesn't the new Zeppelin have a USB DAC as well?

I think it does, but some standalone computer speakers are a pretty good idea imo. Focal is doing that now and I wouldn't be surprised to see other "high end" speaker companies getting into this market.

[sikoniko]

the question for PC speakers is how long consumers will have two seperate systems before the PC is fully integrated into the entertainment center.

[JustinGN]

For PC Gamers like myself, this is fantastic news. My only two nitpicks are the USB connection (USB DACs are very hit-and-miss, even for audiophile companies) and the lack of expandability (IE, 5.1 or 4.0 setups).

As for the P5's, I'm glad B&W is getting into the Headphone business, but a bit concerned as well. How will the metal back affect bass response? What about that cheap, flimsy-looking wire that's bound to get tangled and knotted up? I kind of expected more attention to detail than what I'm seeing in the initial release; even a simple nylon braid over the wire like the Zune Earbuds would protect the wires better and prevent tangling.

I'll be grabbing a pair of the PC speakers as soon as they're available more than likely, though I'm on the fence with the P5's. I need something for day-to-day portable usage, and the Grado's just aren't built for that sort of rough treatment; the P5's were supposedly built for iPods/iPhones, so maybe they're more rugged.

[Nolan B]

PC speakers look very cool form thoe pics. I was going to get a pair of the ones B&O makes, but I am thinking the B&Ws look better.

[PavelL]

New Bose anyone?! noise-cancelling earphones, cubes for your PC...

[audioqueso]

They're not noise cancelling. It's just sealed headphones (which really has me interested) since most manufacturers that go for audiophile nirvana use open-cir. design. I would definitely make the chance to listen to them once they come out in Japan.

[Charlieu]

New Bose anyone?! noise-cancelling earphones, cubes for your PC...

My thought exactly. Parlay a reputation for high quality audio into a line of overpriced mediocre products to sell to the uninformed masses. It's business and it's purpose is to make money. I can't blame them for catering to a wider audience. They need to do that to stay alive.

[mjb]

I think they're cheapening the B&W brand name with this stuff, and thats a shame.

[miner]

I think they're cheapening the B&W brand name with this stuff, and thats a shame.

Agreed

[wgriel]

Wasn't the the ipod docking station market pretty crowded?, seem to have done pretty well with thier first attempt. :W

Absolutely, but the Zeppelin was heads and shoulders better than any of the iPod docks out there.

There are quite a few companies currently making audiophile grade headphones: it remains to be seen how competitive the B&W offering is with these products. It's possible that they've come up with a design that will stomp the competition, but that would surprise me given the maturity of this market.

But, we'll see.

[rgbyhkr]

I think they're cheapening the B&W brand name with this stuff, and thats a shame.

I disagree with this and agree with Charlieu. If you never heard of B&W and happened upon these products, you're likely to think that they are probably pretty good. If you know B&W well, then you know that what they produce at these price points will not compare to the standalone speakers all throughout the line. It's not like they are trying to sell CDMs in the Apple Store or something. As long as they keep the market separate, I don't think the bleed downward is much to worry about. Traditional B&W CI's may carry these products (my local dealer does), but I don't think they are hitching their wagons to this line as a way of keeping the doors open.

In the new reality where iPods, portable audio and computer audio gain more and more interest by consumers, no company can really afford to ignore this market. They don't all have to go this same route, but they can't turn a deaf ear to it either. To me, B&W is pushing ever further outward to widen their catalog offerings. Could they get overextended? Sure, but this particular market segment is absolutely worth pushing into.

Jeff

[wgriel]

I think they're cheapening the B&W brand name with this stuff, and thats a shame.

I know what you are saying, but I don't really agree. While the iPod isn't considered an audiophile product, it is by far the biggest thing to hit the audio market in a long time: I think it would be foolish for B&W to ignore this market.

By selling docks, headphones and the like they may also be providing a "gateway" for users to get exposed to high end audio. I don't think that selling these "low end" products in any way depreciates the prestige of the company.

And I bet they are ahead of the curve: it wouldn't surprise me at all to see some other "high end" manufactures jumping into this market space, especially in these difficult economic times.

[rgbyhkr]

Absolutely, but the Zeppelin was heads and shoulders better than any of the iPod docks out there.

There are quite a few companies currently making audiophile grade headphones: it remains to be seen how competitive the B&W offering is with these products. It's possible that they've come up with a design that will stomp the competition, but that would surprise me given the maturity of this market.

But, we'll see.

As a headphone junkie, I know from way too much time spent over on HeadFi that this crowd is a fickle bunch. B&W does better to try and woo more casual users who want something extravagant. At the P5 price point, they'll be competing against Apple Store favorites like the Beats, QC15, QC3, etc. Of course, those units are active NC, while the P5 is not. I still think they could do well though with the existence of the Zeppelin and now the Mini (creating better B&W brand awareness amongst Apple Store shoppers). I do have some concerns about the earpads (ears getting hot and sweaty) and the exposed headband wire though, so we'll see how they hold up in real world use.

Jeff

[hifiguymi]

I think they're cheapening the B&W brand name with this stuff, and thats a shame.

When I first heard of their plan to do the iPod dock I thought the same thing. But looking looking at the current product mix and what has been discontinued and not replaced (like the 300 Series, VM1, LM1, AS1, AS2) they are focusing on the step up market and above. I think these products are there to build brand awareness and help improve the bottom line so they can continue to do R&D on speakers like the 800 Series.

Eric

[audioqueso]

I think they're cheapening the B&W brand name with this stuff, and thats a shame.

+1

Wasn't the the ipod docking station market pretty crowded?, seem to have done pretty well with thier first attempt. :W

Yeah, but according to who?? To audiophile masses, yes. To iPod masses... not really. But I'm curious who B&W's target is. B&W markets to audiophile masses... but iPod is not. Just trying to hit both, I guess. Though if I had a desktop, I'd buy the new Zeppelin. :B I'm always interested in hearing new products from B&W though... whether I'd want to buy it or not. I'm a B&W fan (keychain and all. lol)

[sikoniko]

I don't know. I have a G1 zeppelin and love it. I'll audition these headphones and consider replacing my current headphones with them. I think it is about time. I sort of wish they had a good-better-best product offering. the senheisers can be pretty expensive. wonder where they will fall. anyone see a price?

[audioqueso]

Knowing B&W, the headphones will probably be over £200... but that's just speculating. And if it's that price, they better offer something superior to the Sennheiser HD650s. I still would love to audition them though.

[joetama]

Knowing B&W, the headphones will probably be over £200... but that's just speculating. And if it's that price, they better offer something superior to the Sennheiser HD650s. I still would love to audition them though.

Indeed... Making good headphones isn't the same ball game as making good speaker systems. My standard is my Sennheiser cans. I'm confident the B&W will be expensive, but will they be worth it. Only time will tell...


BTW, wasn't there a P5 speaker years ago?

[rgbyhkr]

Yeah, but according to who?? To audiophile masses, yes. To iPod masses... not really. But I'm curious who B&W's target is. B&W markets to audiophile masses... but iPod is not. Just trying to hit both, I guess. Though if I had a desktop, I'd buy the new Zeppelin. :B I'm always interested in hearing new products from B&W though... whether I'd want to buy it or not. I'm a B&W fan (keychain and all. lol)

I think the target is the aspirational iPod customer or the audiophile who doesn't have the space or money to do a whole new system. Even with it's substantial size, I find that the Zeppelin is overall smaller and has less associated clutter than even a small proper 2-channel setup.

In the Apple Stores, the Zeppelin absolutely does stand out, as it should given the form factor and price. Prior to the Bose Sounddock 10, it was their most expensive speaker dock by a good margin. So, I think it creates a scenario where those customers come in and view it as the high end even if they know nothing about B&W. Some will buy while others just lust after. I will say though, that my local dealer tells me that the B&W tells him that the Zeppelin does much better outside the US than in the US. I can see that. We're usually not as space conscious as our international brethren, so spending $600 on a unit to save space or retain that one box look and feel may seem less attractive on this side of the pond. In that way, the Mini should help given its much lower price point.

I think B&W could go too far by pushing below $400. You very quickly then start to lose that "high end" feeling (for the mass market iPod crowd) and would have to sacrifice some design elements so as to not encroach on the existing line. Purely from a personal subjective view, the Zeppelin sounds significantly better than the Mini, as it should for 50% more price and much bigger footprint. I wouldn't want to see them sacrifice any more than what they have on the Mini. As for the MM-1 computer speakers, they will land in between the 2, with the added benefit of true stereo separation.

BTW, the P5 will be $299.

Jeff

[rgbyhkr]

Knowing B&W, the headphones will probably be over £200... but that's just speculating. And if it's that price, they better offer something superior to the Sennheiser HD650s. I still would love to audition them though.

Indeed... Making good headphones isn't the same ball game as making good speaker systems. My standard is my Sennheiser cans. I'm confident the B&W will be expensive, but will they be worth it. Only time will tell...


BTW, wasn't there a P5 speaker years ago?

How good they sound remains to be seen, but I will say that they have one thing I like out of the gate - they are reasonably portable because the earpads can fold flat. I own Senn 650s and a variety of full size cans. While I love them all for different reasons, they are just too bulky so they always wind up staying home. Yes, I have a carrying case should I want to take them (http://www.headphone.com/accessories...der-strap.php), but I never do. I always welcome new entries into the headphone market, especially quality cans that are intended to be taken with you.

Jeff

[ray5]

Since we are on the topic of headphones, does anyone have a suggestion for good wireless ones?
Thanks.
Ray

[rgbyhkr]

Since we are on the topic of headphones, does anyone have a suggestion for good wireless ones?
Thanks.
Ray

Home use or portable? 2-channel or surround for TV/movies? Desired range? Budget?

Jeff

[ray5]

HOme use. movies and music. Range at least 20ft. Budget is open.
Thanks,
Ray

[rgbyhkr]

HOme use. movies and music. Range at least 20ft. Budget is open.
Thanks,
Ray

There are a few options. You can go wireless using RF or using IR. In my previous experience, IR tends to be more stable as long as you have line of sight from transmitter to the headphones. RF can be good depending on the amount of nearby RF interference but it's not uncommon to get signal pops or general noise. Newer technologies in RF are supposed to improve that though. Kleer (http://www.kleer.com) is a company that uses a technology in RF to try and offer CD quality with greater signal stability. Sennheiser has started using it in the wireless headphones including their existing portable MX W1.

Below are some surround options worth checking out:

Upcoming product (mid-November) - Sennheiser RS 170 - $270

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/press_releases_020909-rsserie

- Uses Kleer tech and offers a virtual surround mode. Note that input is analog 2-channel only. Range of 80m. Step up model RS 180 has 100m range and is an open design (RS 170 is closed) but does not offer the surround mode. Senn will tell you that the RS 180 is their audiophile grade design - price is $349.


Sony MDR-DS3000 - $229 ($159 on Amazon)

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11035276#features

- IR with range of 10m. Has an analog as well as a digital input (optical). Transmitter decodes DD and DTS for movies.


Pioneer SE-DIR800C - $399 ($249 on Amazon)

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/Headphones/AudioStereo/ci.SE-DIR800C.Kuro

- Similar to Sony design. 8m range. I have them and have enjoyed using them, though I do find the noise on the headband as it moves with your head distracting. The newer model doesn't suffer from this, but is an import product.

The US market doesn't offer as many options as there are internationally. If you are willing to import, you can buy from a company like Audiocubes. I've done business with them more than once and had great customer service. There selection of wireless surround headphones are here:

http://www.audiocubes.com/index.php?cPath=23_62

Hope this helps.

Jeff

[audioqueso]

...my local dealer tells me that the B&W tells him that the Zeppelin does much better outside the US than in the US. I can see that. We're usually not as space conscious as our international brethren

Japan! Man, absolutely everything sold is space conscious here... even pets. lol

Purely from a personal subjective view, the Zeppelin sounds significantly better than the Mini, as it should for 50% more price and much bigger footprint. I wouldn't want to see them sacrifice any more than what they have on the Mini.

Interesting. I didn't know it was that much smaller than the Zeppelin. I found the USB DAC feature most interesting about the new Zeppelin (though I had no intentions of purchasing one)

BTW, the P5 will be $299.

Really? Where did you find that out? That's not a bad price at all.

...I will say that they have one thing I like out of the gate - they are reasonably portable because the earpads can fold flat. I own Senn 650s and a variety of full size cans. While I love them all for different reasons, they are just too bulky so they always wind up staying home.

+1. My favorite cans are also my largest in size, Audio-Technica A900's. Those things are massive. But I've stuck to the reliable Sennheiser PX200 for outside use throughout the past decade. I love those cans for travelling. But that is a very big plus that B&W is making them somewhat portable. :T

[ray5]

There are a few options. You can go wireless using RF or using IR. In my previous experience, IR tends to be more stable as long as you have line of sight from transmitter to the headphones. RF can be good depending on the amount of nearby RF interference but it's not uncommon to get signal pops or general noise. Newer technologies in RF are supposed to improve that though. Kleer (http://www.kleer.com) is a company that uses a technology in RF to try and offer CD quality with greater signal stability. Sennheiser has started using it in the wireless headphones including their existing portable MX W1.

Below are some surround options worth checking out:

Upcoming product (mid-November) - Sennheiser RS 170 - $270

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/press_releases_020909-rsserie

- Uses Kleer tech and offers a virtual surround mode. Note that input is analog 2-channel only. Range of 80m. Step up model RS 180 has 100m range and is an open design (RS 170 is closed) but does not offer the surround mode. Senn will tell you that the RS 180 is their audiophile grade design - price is $349.


Sony MDR-DS3000 - $229 ($159 on Amazon)

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11035276#features

- IR with range of 10m. Has an analog as well as a digital input (optical). Transmitter decodes DD and DTS for movies.


Pioneer SE-DIR800C - $399 ($249 on Amazon)

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/Headphones/AudioStereo/ci.SE-DIR800C.Kuro

- Similar to Sony design. 8m range. I have them and have enjoyed using them, though I do find the noise on the headband as it moves with your head distracting. The newer model doesn't suffer from this, but is an import product.

The US market doesn't offer as many options as there are internationally. If you are willing to import, you can buy from a company like Audiocubes. I've done business with them more than once and had great customer service. There selection of wireless surround headphones are here:

http://www.audiocubes.com/index.php?cPath=23_62

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Man, That was great! Thanks,
Ray

[rgbyhkr]

Japan! Man, absolutely everything sold is space conscious here... even pets. lol

I'm told it's doing quite well in Europe as well.

Interesting. I didn't know it was that much smaller than the Zeppelin. I found the USB DAC feature most interesting about the new Zeppelin (though I had no intentions of purchasing one)

When I saw the Mini in person for the first time I was really surprised. That was even after I had visualized the dimensions on the specs page and seen the Mini and Zeppelin side-by-side in a pic. It really is much smaller.

Really? Where did you find that out? That's not a bad price at all.

That's from a B&W rep.

+1. My favorite cans are also my largest in size, Audio-Technica A900's. Those things are massive. But I've stuck to the reliable Sennheiser PX200 for outside use throughout the past decade. I love those cans for travelling. But that is a very big plus that B&W is making them somewhat portable. :T

I find that my love for full-sized cans at home has made finding portable models difficult. Instead, I have embraced IEMs. While you give up quality soundstaging, ultra portability and external noise isolation are pretty good tradeoffs. There too though, I have an unhealthy collection even though I only have 2 ears. Yet still, I find myself wanting to grow again and the JH Audio 13Pros have been calling my name. :B Perhaps though, I'll like what I hear enough from the P5 to buck the trend...

Jeff

[ray5]

WHat is a open design and closed design headphone?
Ray

[BassThatHz]

The thing I like about my Sennheiser's is that they don't make contact with the ears, and that they are an open design.

Closed designs are better at blocking noise in both directions, for DJ/Soundbooth type recording/playback environments; but not for Hi-Fi transparency IMO.

I like the use of metal and leather here, but the pin holes must be quite restrictive compared to the more open design of Sennheiser's (for example).

[wgriel]

WHat is a open design and closed design headphone?
Ray

open design are open backed - they allow more sound to escape (and enter) the 'phones, but well designed open headphones will generally give a much better sense of space. Closed back headphones (and in the ear) can sound good, but tend to have a bit of a weird "in the middle of your head" effect.

[Isaac]

The B&W P5 headphones look like a quality product. A lot of megabuck headphones are not good choices for portable devices but, looks like B&W designed the P5's to work with iphones and ipods. Headphones to me, sound like a good market for B&W to get in.

[rgbyhkr]

I have to credit the B&W folks for including 2 cables with the P5, especially one that has iPhone friendly in-line playback/volume controls plus mic. This is a growing trend that has been woefully absent from too many portable headphone designs out there. Even if you want to just use them with an iPod Classic or Touch, I find playback and volume controls to be invaluable.

Jeff