DS8S or SCMS

[ray5]

Hi! For surrounds which one will be better and why? My fronts are 802D's and HTM2D driven by Rotel 1092/1091 and I plan to get the 1565 for the surrounds.
Thanks,
Ray

[Hammie]

Another option are the CWM DS8's. These are the ones I am considering for my setup.

I guess it really depends on the room setup as to whether on wall or in-wall would be best.

[1oldguy]

Hi Ray I was in the same position as yourself just before Christmas when I ordered Both the same front and center channel as you.The answer according to what I read was that if your planning to use the rear speakers for more than just movies it would be best to go with a regular speaker rather than one that diffuses the sound.So I ended up going with the 803D's for a few reasons.First I get the same tweeter as my fronts,and center,and the midrange is the same except for the Marlin head.Plus I didn't need to buy stands which meant the money went into actual speakers performance.
So at the end of the day it comes down to your intentions,I want to build my system for music as well as movies so I went with what seemed reasonable conclusion,that as the article stated,"Why would you purposely pay to diffuse the soundfield?'
I know I am new to this but from what I gathered made sence to me.It may not be in your best interests though and I realize that.Just trying to help you out as per your request.I can't remember the name of the article now.

[ray5]

Thanks, wall mounting the rear surrounds will not be a problem but the sides will be a challenge as there is a fireplace on one side and window on the other. I do a lot of HT and less 2 ch music but it seems lots of folks like me have been converted once there system gets to where I am. I am really not an expert or an audiophile but enjoy good sound effects. Aesthetics matter also, from that perspective definitely the SCS look nice. It seems Dolby recommends the surrounds to be placed slightly above the ear level. I know for the purists matching the fronts with the rears is very imp. But is it overkill to have diamonds for rears for someone who at least for now does not do that much critical listening?
I did like the 805S and still am thinking seriously about them. But is there some rule or practice I should keep in mind as later I plan to add the sides. I want toplan ahead for matching and aesthetics both. Thanks a lot for your input.
Ray

[1oldguy]

Hi Ray

First off I want to say I am by no means an expert in all this myself.But as you know I am serious about audio and do spend a far amount of time reading.To answer your question,I remember from that same article that most people would be better served by 5.1 than 7.1 reason being that most people do not have (Myself included) a room that is for music or movies only.
As for getting the 803D's for rears I think your right.It is overkill.But I personally felt much better knowing my speakers are almost completely matching both visually and Sonically.Plus I want no buyers remorse.
Of course there are always two sides to any decision or debate,with that being said there is always more than one way to skin a cat as they say.
The 803D is a little taller than the 802D so I think it a perfect height for the rears and given the way the tweeter is supposed to work ( I say supposed as I haven't heard my speakers yet) they have a wide sound field.I did read in an article that the 803D's are 80% as good as their bigger brothers and with identical tweeter and midrange I just feel better knowing what I have matches up like it does.

To sum up,It would be better to keep the speaker count down unless you feel that your room isn't going to cause you problems sonically.

[sikoniko]

Thanks, wall mounting the rear surrounds will not be a problem but the sides will be a challenge as there is a fireplace on one side and window on the other. I do a lot of HT and less 2 ch music but it seems lots of folks like me have been converted once there system gets to where I am. I am really not an expert or an audiophile but enjoy good sound effects. Aesthetics matter also, from that perspective definitely the SCS look nice. It seems Dolby recommends the surrounds to be placed slightly above the ear level. I know for the purists matching the fronts with the rears is very imp. But is it overkill to have diamonds for rears for someone who at least for now does not do that much critical listening?
I did like the 805S and still am thinking seriously about them. But is there some rule or practice I should keep in mind as later I plan to add the sides. I want toplan ahead for matching and aesthetics both. Thanks a lot for your input.
Ray

since sound pans around in the rears, it might be best to plan for all of your tweeters to be the same height. you might find it distracting if some speakers are at different levels than others.

[1oldguy]

Ray ...I have been reading for the past couple of hours in the Audio Critic,it is very interesting to say the least.I need to mull over what I've just read.Very interesting.

[ray5]

Ray ...I have been reading for the past couple of hours in the Audio Critic,it is very interesting to say the least.I need to mull over what I've just read.Very interesting.

What are you referring to?

[1oldguy]

Issue 24 of Audio Critic......What a read that was.

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_24_r.pdf

Look for the Article on Multichannel Audio.......Quite informative

[style]

Hy ray5,

I had the RB1092&91, now Classe, the 803D & Htm2D always in my room.

I have the 805s as rear.
Scms or Ds8s? I will go with the Scms.
the Ds8s are a good speakers but you need a room where a dipol pay.
I don't know if your room is a ideal for a dipol speakers but if I will have the best from a Ds8s speakers you need think before the purchasing....

for a 5.1 system I dont like the effect from a dipol. (personal taste)

The Ds8s make you happy.

Style

[ray5]

Hy ray5,

I had the RB1092&91, now Classe, the 803D & Htm2D always in my room.

I have the 805s as rear.
Scms or Ds8s? I will go with the Scms.
the Ds8s are a good speakers but you need a room where a dipol pay.
I don't know if your room is a ideal for a dipol speakers but if I will have the best from a Ds8s speakers you need think before the purchasing....

for a 5.1 system I dont like the effect from a dipol. (personal taste)

The Ds8s make you happy.

Style

See, the plan is long term. I just got my fronts at a considerably higher expense than I set out for. My intent is down the line I have a solid and congruous system. Not a pot-pouri of different looking speakers. The first criteria of selection will be the sonic quality and second will be the aethetics. I had thought of getting the 805S as my rears and then in the future something else for the sides. That's where the questions arises. What sides do I plan for? Do I get all SCMS or 2 SCMS and 2 DS8S, all four 805S. I cannot and will not go into the diamonds for my surrounds as I think that will be overkill, expensive and also space constraints. For the near future I am looking to choose a pair of rears so that is the current decision but while I make that I want to keep in mind the sides as well as they will be the next to look for. Help appreciated. Thanks.
Ray

[style]

Hallo Ray,

If you target is a 7.x sstem at first go with the 805s as rear.

Later with the SCMS an place it at the totale rear (rearback) and the 805S as rear (near the sofa of what you go have in this area.


Will be not bad so.....well I don't have never see your room....


Bey Omar

[MikeFL52]

I have the DS8S surround speakers in a 5.1 and for movies in the dipole mode in general they dissappear, except for very localized sounds.

They have six speakers in total, a woofeer and tweeter in front and mid and tweeter on each side. The woofer is active no matter what mode you operate the speaker in. You can also switch between modes manually so long as you can reach it (I can't) or through swiching on a pre/pro or receiver so long as it is the correct swiching and you have an extra pair of wires going to the speaker (I don't). I leave them in dipole and live with the less than discrete rear sound for 5.1 engineered music,by engineered I mean music that has been specially configured for 5.1 or 7.1 rather than concerts which I believe still sound better with a more diffuse rear sound.

Dipoles vs. direct is a very emotional subject and you are going to get many opinions. If you are also putting in rears than you are automatically going to get a more diffuse surround sound with direct speakers and so dipoles are not as necessary, look at a real theater they have multiple direct speakers. Even though I have dipoles and love them I will be the first to admit that they are a compromise for not having multiple surround speakers.

For me the SCMS has never been that appealing, I think I would prefer to go with the 805's and even hang them upside down if the tweeter top or bottom is a consideration.

I know that this is probably heresy, but have you considered dipoles by Monitor Audio or Paradigm as alternatives? I know they are different speakers but the DS8S have different speaker elements to the 803Ds that I have as fronts and integrate well.

[sikoniko]

I have the DS8S surround speakers in a 5.1 and for movies in the dipole mode in general they dissappear, except for very localized sounds.

They have six speakers in total, a woofeer and tweeter in front and mid and tweeter on each side. The woofer is active no matter what mode you operate the speaker in. You can also switch between modes manually so long as you can reach it (I can't) or through swiching on a pre/pro or receiver so long as it is the correct swiching and you have an extra pair of wires going to the speaker (I don't). I leave them in dipole and live with the less than discrete rear sound for 5.1 engineered music,by engineered I mean music that has been specially configured for 5.1 or 7.1 rather than concerts which I believe still sound better with a more diffuse rear sound.

Dipoles vs. direct is a very emotional subject and you are going to get many opinions. If you are also putting in rears than you are automatically going to get a more diffuse surround sound with direct speakers and so dipoles are not as necessary, look at a real theater they have multiple direct speakers. Even though I have dipoles and love them I will be the first to admit that they are a compromise for not having multiple surround speakers.

For me the SCMS has never been that appealing, I think I would prefer to go with the 805's and even hang them upside down if the tweeter top or bottom is a consideration.

I know that this is probably heresy, but have you considered dipoles by Monitor Audio or Paradigm as alternatives? I know they are different speakers but the DS8S have different speaker elements to the 803Ds that I have as fronts and integrate well.

dipoles really require proper placement to get the desired effect. not everyone has the means to support that, which can cause negative experiences.

[sikoniko]

Hallo Ray,

If you target is a 7.x sstem at first go with the 805s as rear.

Later with the SCMS an place it at the totale rear (rearback) and the 805S as rear (near the sofa of what you go have in this area.


Will be not bad so.....well I don't have never see your room....


Bey Omar

I'm curious why you would mix 805s's and SCMs's?

[mjb]

I think an SCMS is just a flat 805s, they're supposed to sound (pretty much) the same. They're wall mountable (so you don't need to buy stands) and a bit cheaper than the 805s.

[ray5]

I think an SCMS is just a flat 805s, they're supposed to sound (pretty much) the same. They're wall mountable (so you don't need to buy stands) and a bit cheaper than the 805s.

That's what I had heard too that SCMS is a flattened version of the 805S. Looks like there is decent agreement about the 805S as being suited for a rear speaker short of going full range speakers. I agree the stands are expensive, $350 a piece retail. That's why sometimes you feel tempted to spend a bit extra and go for a full range (804S) and thereby invest in speakers and not the stand. But I think the 805S is a very good speaker and will do a good job a the rears. The other thing I feel is that the majority of you do not like the dipoles. I don't have the space to put 805S all around as my fronts already have taken a lot of space and this is not a dedicated HT room but a general purpose family room. Thanks
Ray

[1oldguy]

Well Given the power requirements If I had my time back i would have went with the 805s.But for pure bliss I went the 803D.
I still may go and get a set of 805S and use the 803D's for a set up in a different room maybe.In any event I have some figuring out to do.

[speakerboy]

Ray,

I had the same question as you a year ago. At the time, I had 4 N805 speakers with stands for sides and rears and decided they took too much floor space and table space (2 were on top of tables for above ear level). As I was preparing for a front projector installation, I decided to sell my N805 speakers and 805 stands and went with 4 SCMS speakers mounted on the wall. One side of my multi-purpose room doesn't have a sidewall and had them install a pole to mount the SCMS. After the install, the surround sound is so much better! I have 803D/HTM2D and it blends well.

Some reasons for my decision for 4 SCMS over 2 SCMS/2 DS8S:
- I wanted full-range speakers all-around
- the same look and consistency (aesthetics)
- the DS8S have to be hung on the wall and I didn't have a wall on one side
- SCMS can easily be angled with its bracket--this made all the difference so that I could tweak the angle and speaker positioning
- potentially higher resale value with SCMS over the DS8S in the event I sell them
- SCMS are designed to sound like an 805S and has the tweeter towards the center rather than top or bottom like the former SCM1

I gained back my room space the N805 speakers took up. I am fully satisfied with my SCMS decision to this day. I think the SCMS speakers sound better as surrounds than my former N805 speakers...though my N805 speakers weren't positioned properly.

In the end, you'll have to decide if you want diffuse or direct speakers and what else is important for you. Hope this helps...good luck!

[style]

sikoniko: I'm curious why you would mix 805s's and SCMs's?

I think at 805s with a Scms Only if the system is a 7.1....

Ray I have too the 803D and Htm2D in a family room. I habe the plasma Kuro 60" at the wall and the 805s with stand as rear.
The 805s I can place where I can the Scms Whitout stand need a wall and if the wall is not in a symmetrical room is not a optimal solution....

greetings
Omar

[ray5]

I think at 805s with a Scms Only if the system is a 7.1....

Ray I have too the 803D and Htm2D in a family room. I habe the plasma Kuro 60" at the wall and the 805s with stand as rear.
The 805s I can place where I can the Scms Whitout stand need a wall and if the wall is not in a symmetrical room is not a optimal solution....

greetings
Omar

Agreed.

[indiebands]

Ray,

I had the same question as you a year ago. At the time, I had 4 N805 speakers with stands for sides and rears and decided they took too much floor space and table space (2 were on top of tables for above ear level). As I was preparing for a front projector installation, I decided to sell my N805 speakers and 805 stands and went with 4 SCMS speakers mounted on the wall. One side of my multi-purpose room doesn't have a sidewall and had them install a pole to mount the SCMS. After the install, the surround sound is so much better! I have 803D/HTM2D and it blends well.

Some reasons for my decision for 4 SCMS over 2 SCMS/2 DS8S:
- I wanted full-range speakers all-around
- the same look and consistency (aesthetics)
- the DS8S have to be hung on the wall and I didn't have a wall on one side
- SCMS can easily be angled with its bracket--this made all the difference so that I could tweak the angle and speaker positioning
- potentially higher resale value with SCMS over the DS8S in the event I sell them
- SCMS are designed to sound like an 805S and has the tweeter towards the center rather than top or bottom like the former SCM1

I gained back my room space the N805 speakers took up. I am fully satisfied with my SCMS decision to this day. I think the SCMS speakers sound better as surrounds than my former N805 speakers...though my N805 speakers weren't positioned properly.

In the end, you'll have to decide if you want diffuse or direct speakers and what else is important for you. Hope this helps...good luck!

Thanks, speakerboy for that perspective. That is exactly what I was looking for. Glad this thread is getting some traction (thanks, ray) as I have been wondering about this question for a while. I have new 803Ds as fronts and am looking at picking up an HTM2D (and a Vincent monoblock amp to match the front amps), but have limited space for surrounds, thus have been leaning towards the SCMS. Glad to hear your experience with them as surrounds.

Off topic question: does anyone have views about whether its OK to put a center like an HTM2D on top of an equipment rack that lives below the TV - I would guess that the CD and DVD playback could be affected by big LF sounds from the HTM2D, though would think other electronics would be OK. Because of space constraints the audio and video equipment needs to be below the TV. Thanks in advance.

[htsteve]

Off topic question: does anyone have views about whether its OK to put a center like an HTM2D on top of an equipment rack that lives below the TV - I would guess that the CD and DVD playback could be affected by big LF sounds from the HTM2D, though would think other electronics would be OK. Because of space constraints the audio and video equipment needs to be below the TV. Thanks in advance.

indiebands,

Many of us put an HTM2D on top of an entertainment center. My HTM2D is on top of my EC and below the screen (my EC is only 21" high, but about 8 feet wide). It works out very well.

The HTM2D is very well constructed and you don't feel any vibrations coming from it. I'm sure it vibrates on a very small scale, but I don't feel anything. It shouldn't affect you other components. You can always use isolation materials (like isolation feet) on your CD/DVD to make sure those sources are fine.

As long as your equipment rack can handle the weight, you should be good to go.


Hope this helps.