Do you Blumlein or not ?

[Birdy]

Hi fellow members,

After an intervention of Kal on another thread, I was wondering, do you Blumlein or not?

Meaning are your speakers axis crossing slightly in front of your listening position or not?

And if yes, what kind of changes did you notice?

Birdy

[Ken49r]

Birdy,
Could you post the link to the other thread for reference?

I tried it when my 805's were brand new and the bass reflections off my bare walls were driving me crazy. Didn't keep them that way long enough to make any judgment, but if I remember correctly it did make the speaker disappear from my being able to localize where the sound was coming from.

[Birdy]

Birdy,
Could you post the link to the other thread for reference?

I tried it when my 805's were brand new and the bass reflections off my bare walls were driving me crazy. Didn't keep them that way long enough to make any judgment, but if I remember correctly it did make the speaker disappear from my being able to localize where the sound was coming from.

There you go, http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=32542

But if memory serves well this subject came across other threads as well.

[William]

I have been Blumlein(ing) since the late 70's.

[Birdy]

I have been Blumlein(ing) since the late 70's.

Love the TV.... :T

[mjb]

I have been Blumlein(ing) since the late 70's.

Whoooaaaaa!!! Time Warp!!!

That looks fantastic :T :T

[KyaDawn]

Atari VCS...nice! :T I still have mine somewhere h:

[Briz vegas]

The thread title is a bit cryptic for most.

I played with this a bit and on balance prefer the Blumlein toe in.

It gives a stronger central image and a more cohesive sound. I went back to my old configuration but that only lasted a day or so,

[William]

Just for the record those are JBL L220 speakers from back in the days when JBL was a premier speaker manufacture.

[wgriel]

I've tried it with my 703s, but in my (less than ideal) listening room, I find that I prefer a slight toe-in instead. It's easy for me to implement so I may give it another shot, but I recently tried and didn't like it quite as much as a gentle toe-in.

[Glenee]

Excuse Me, but WTF is it ?

[wettou]

is that canabis 8O Peace dude

[WI Rotel]

is that canabis 8O Peace dude

Some horticultural study is required! :W That plant is a spider plant (Clorophitum comosum) not Cannabis sativa. In latin america the plant is known as mala madre (bad mother) because it reproduces by sending out shoots, thus, it looks like its kicking out its offspring!
Here are pictures of cannabis:

http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=106159533&MyToken=ff66e9eb-9a92-4c60-b58b-88833df46aa3

[Relentless]

Here are pictures of cannabis:
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?...b-88833df46aa3

Those are pretty enough to be the High Times centerfold.

[Alaric]

Didn't see the right answer options for me. I have the axis crossed slightly behind my listening position. It works best for me , in my listening area , with my speakers . The axis crossing in front just turns the sound into a chaotic mess-for me .

[WI Rotel]

Back to the subject at hand, It depends on the speakers you have. With XT's toe in is essentially not necessary given the speaker's inordinately wide dispersion. Mine are probably 5 degrees off perpendicular to the wall.

[Alaric]

I did vote "Tried it and loved it" , but that was in response to another post.....

[scanido]

I initially had my mains point a foot by my ears from my listening position. I tried this new placement and found a light lost to the width of the sound, but the vocals are slightly more defined. Although this may be fine, i think it also shrunk and pushed the presence of the singer further away.

[wettou]

Some horticultural study is required! :W That plant is a spider plant (Clorophitum comosum) not Cannabis sativa. In latin america the plant is known as mala madre (bad mother) because it reproduces by sending out shoots, thus, it looks like its kicking out its offspring!
Here are pictures of cannabis:
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?...b-88833df46aa3

Yes I know it was a joke, thanks for the education :T

What is Blumlein?

[DM3000 Owner]

I tried it yesterday. I listened to a few songs, nothing long term. Imaging was about the same as my usual setup which is abotu 10 degrees of toe in with one exception.

I listened to a few tracks from Roger Waters "Amused to Death" which uses Q Sound recording. If set up properly, there are parts that sound like they are comming from next to you or even behind you. These effects went away when I used the Blumlein setup.

I read somewhere that if you set up your system so that Q Sound works, your toe in and placement will be where it should be. Sounds right to me as teh imaging always seems to be spot on.

Here is an explanation of Q Sound:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound

[Gump]

Didn't see the right answer options for me. I have the axis crossed slightly behind my listening position. It works best for me , in my listening area , with my speakers . The axis crossing in front just turns the sound into a chaotic mess-for me .

My speakers are aimed just a bit behind my listening position as well. Probably should've been an additional choice in the poll.
Being the open minded enthusiast that I am , I'll probably try Professor Kal's reference to the Blumlein method this weekend to see what, if any, difference it makes.

[wettou]

Since no one responded here you are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blumlein_Pair

[Glenee]

Since no one responded here you are

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blumlein_Pair

If this is in reference to speaker toe in, are they saying to point the speakers directly at the listener's face. Is it to face them at a point 1,2,3, feet in front of the listener. I can't find anything on speakers only microphones. Will somebody please explain what we are suppose to be doing here.

[Glenee]

Never mind I found it. The answer is just about 6 inches to 1 foot in front of your nose. Focal point of your speakers that is.

[bigburner]

Here is a photograph of Alan Blumlein. You will notice that he has a stubby nose, which is a consequence of having the focal point of his speakers too close to his ears.

Nigel.

[Briz vegas]

My old setup was to have the speakers aimed to cross just behind me and the imaging etc was fine. I think the Bumline comes together best with really simple recordings such as a singer and guitar. I say I am using Bumline but in actual fact I am more accurately using a bum line as that is pretty much where the speakers are aimed, assuming that my bum is directly below my head in the seated position.

I bet Blumlein copped alot of flak at school for that name.

[Kal Rubinson]

Never mind I found it. The answer is just about 6 inches to 1 foot in front of your nose. Focal point of your speakers that is.

OK. I did some research and asked around for specific references to this technique. What I found out was that, although it was trickled down from Blumlein's ideas, it was really promoted by Hugh Brittain. (Thank you, John Atkinson and Floyd Toole.) I tried to access his papers (especially the Brittain/Leakey paper) but they are not available free.

So, I guess, I need to reform my memories and we should rename this thread.

Kal

[Briz vegas]

Sorry, Hugh Brittain does not work for me. Hugh Jass fits my infantile theme nicely however.

[scanido]

What other speaker positioning placements have people tried that has worked well for them?

I pointed my speakers a foot behind my listening position and found it to keep the same singer's image and have more dispersed sound.

[Relentless]

What other speaker positioning placements have people tried that has worked well for them?

I pointed my speakers a foot behind my listening position and found it to keep the same singer's image and have more dispersed sound.

My speakers are 9' apart, 9' from the listening position. They are 2 3/4' from the side wall and 4 3/4' from the front wall. I have tried moving the speakers in all directions and tried parallel to toe in to a foot in front of the listening position and 2' behind the listening position works best for me in my room.

I have bass traps in the corners and at the first reflection points on the side.
I have a cd rack and rear floor standing speakers on stands behind me to disperse reflections also.

[Oddiophile]

Jim Smith, the Avantgarde Speaker guru, suggests in his book "Get Better Sound" that the axes should cross about 24 inches behind the head (i.e. listening position). This seems to work for me and is close to what my dealer recommends (18-21").

A question that occurs to me is: Do you do something the same with the rear speakers (in a 7.1 system) and if so, where should the axes cross for those speakers? Using Jim Smith's model, would that be 24'' in front of the head? For Blumlein, would that be 6-12" behind the head (listening position)? I would guess that my rear speakers are at a 135 degree angle off centreline.

It occurs to me that the technique that works best may well depend on the type of music most listened to. Any thoughts on what would work best with classical music? Rock music?

For what it's worth, I have 802Ds (front), HTM2D (center), 802N (sides) and 805S (rears) incidentally with Classe CAM-400 driving the front 3 speakers and Classe 2200 driving the 4 surrounds.

Jim

[William]

...A question that occurs to me is: Do you do something the same with the rear speakers (in a 7.1 system) and if so, where should the axes cross for those speakers? Using Jim Smith's model, would that be 24'' in front of the head? For Blumlein, would that be 6-12" behind the head (listening position)? I would guess that my rear speakers are at a 135 degree angle off centreline...

I have my rears (803D's) crossing about 0.5' behind my reclined head matching my fronts (802D's) that cross about 0.5' in front of my head. Have a 5.1 system also not that that matters.

[joetama]

I've spent countless hours positioning my speakers to get the balance of imaging, spacial depth, and frequency coherence and I like mine aimed behind my head about 15" or so.

[wettou]

Jim Smith, the Avantgarde Speaker guru, suggests in his book "Get Better Sound" that the axes should cross about 24 inches behind the head (i.e. listening position). This seems to work for me and is close to what my dealer recommends (18-21").

A question that occurs to me is: Do you do something the same with the rear speakers (in a 7.1 system) and if so, where should the axes cross for those speakers? Using Jim Smith's model, would that be 24'' in front of the head? For Blumlein, would that be 6-12" behind the head (listening position)? I would guess that my rear speakers are at a 135 degree angle off centreline.

It occurs to me that the technique that works best may well depend on the type of music most listened to. Any thoughts on what would work best with classical music? Rock music?

For what it's worth, I have 802Ds (front), HTM2D (center), 802N (sides) and 805S (rears) incidentally with Classe CAM-400 driving the front 3 speakers and Classe 2200 driving the 4 surrounds. Jim

Cool, I have a similar system 802Ds (front and center), 802N (sides) and 7NT (rears) incidentally with Classe CA5200 driving the five 802 speakers and Classe 2100 driving the rear surrounds

3 CAM-400 nice but I don't want to spend an other $15,000

[emig5m]

My speakers are aimed pretty much directly at my ears, if not, slightly outward/behind my head.

[Birdy]

Was out of the net for a time due business and so unable to follow my own thread..... :roll: :roll: :roll:

The results, till now, are very "politically correct", 33% for each proposition :B :B :B

One could say that it is a controversial subject.

Glenee sorry I didn't answered your question.

Alaric, pay attention when you vote!!!!! :B :B :B :B otherwise the judges have to recount votes and you could get a totally different result.... :B :B

Wettou, sorry also I didn't answer, tks for providing the answer.

DM3000owner, tks for your experience. Amused to death is a great album. Never heard something coming from behind me in my actual configuration; clearly I miss something. But I must confess my actual accoustic is rather poor and the place is difficult to manage. Hopefully the new place will be better.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Kal, tks for the research. Too bad there is nothing to read about speakers position concerning Blumlein

Relentless, tks for the shared experience

Emig5m, as well


Birdy

[energyandair]

AudioNote UK advocate an angled corner set-up for their speakers. It might be worth searching under AudioNote, Audio Note, and Peter Qvortrup.

David

[Alaric]

Alaric, pay attention when you vote!!!!! otherwise the judges have to recount votes and you could get a totally different result....

Are you at all familiar with American politics and voting habits....? :rofl:

[wgriel]

AudioNote UK advocate an angled corner set-up for their speakers. It might be worth searching under AudioNote, Audio Note, and Peter Qvortrup.

David

Yes they do - but their speakers are specifically designed to get bass extension from corner loading and presumably are built to have suitable dispersion characteristics for this arrangement. I'd be very surprised if this works well with any B&W speakers though I could be wrong.

[energyandair]

Yes they do - but their speakers are specifically designed to get bass extension from corner loading and presumably are built to have suitable dispersion characteristics for this arrangement. I'd be very surprised if this works well with any B&W speakers though I could be wrong.

That's true. I was not thinking of the corner location for B&W's so much as the possibility of finding some useful discussion on aiming the speakers to cross in front of the listener.