B&W Placement - Advice needed

[Birdy]

Hello everybody,

About to move to a new house in a few months, I'm trying to plan the future placement of my 802s.... 8O 8O
Obviously I will have to assess how the room is reacting but as we have to order some new sofas as well we would like to plan ahead.

So basically I have 2 options.

Option 1 the 2 sofas in "vis a vis" with the problem that 1 of sofas will be between the speakers... Any idea how this could affect music?

Option 2 might be more efficient but less appealing aesthetically....

What you guys do you think?
Any suggestions would very welcomed :T :T :T :T

Birdy

[Kal Rubinson]

I prefer 1 because the speakers must be a bit too close to each other in 2 in order to accommodate the second sofa. It would also create a good deal of acoustic asymmetry due to the second sofa.

OTOH, I would suggest bringing the speakers a little forward of the intervening sofa in plan 1 (or move the sofa back).

Kal

[Birdy]

I prefer 1 because the speakers must be a bit too close to each other in 2 in order to accommodate the second sofa. It would also create a good deal of acoustic asymmetry due to the second sofa.

OTOH, I would suggest bringing the speakers a little forward of the intervening sofa in plan 1 (or move the sofa back).

Kal

Tks for the advise Kal, sure appreciate an eminent member like you takes time for so personnal subject.

What do you think about room size, no too small for 802D? ( not that I can increase room's size anyway but....)

Birdy

[htsteve]

birdy,

I have 802D's in a similar sized room. And they are outstanding in that room. To be fair, I've done some room treatment to help. But even before that, they were quite excellent.

[Pookie007]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best spacing for my speakers. The B&W rep told me try to maintain a equilateral triable between teh speakers and listening position. He also had me toe in so the speaker is pointed straight at the listening position. When I did this, the sound from two speakers went away and it turned into a full sound without being able to pinpoint the speaker location if my eyes were closed. I also played with moving the speakers closer and further away from the rear wall. If they were too close it sounded a bit bassy or muddy, if I pulled them two far out they didn't seam as full. I have wood floors so I put a piecs of masking tape with distant markings next to each speaker. I then found the distance that had the balance that sounded the best. I then took all my measurements and made a autocad drawing of my room with all the speaker locations.

[Relentless]

Is that room just for music listening? I only see two speakers and no display in your plans so that is my assumption. Can you go with just one sofa? I have a huge TV in the middle of my speakers and it robs the sound stage of some depth. This may only be in my case but before putting something between the speakers the drums seemed further back behind the singer, now the vocals and the drums are more on top of each other.

[Birdy]

Is that room just for music listening? I only see two speakers and no display in your plans so that is my assumption. Can you go with just one sofa? I have a huge TV in the middle of my speakers and it robs the sound stage of some depth. This may only be in my case but before putting something between the speakers the drums seemed further back behind the singer, now the vocals and the drums are more on top of each other.

No it will be a living room, waf won't allow a single sofa...
Also can't orient in the other direction because there is a chimney on the left hand side.

Must say that I'm very concerned about the soundstage with the sofas between speakers

[Birdy]

I spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best spacing for my speakers. The B&W rep told me try to maintain a equilateral triable between teh speakers and listening position. He also had me toe in so the speaker is pointed straight at the listening position. When I did this, the sound from two speakers went away and it turned into a full sound without being able to pinpoint the speaker location if my eyes were closed. I also played with moving the speakers closer and further away from the rear wall. If they were too close it sounded a bit bassy or muddy, if I pulled them two far out they didn't seam as full. I have wood floors so I put a piecs of masking tape with distant markings next to each speaker. I then found the distance that had the balance that sounded the best. I then took all my measurements and made a autocad drawing of my room with all the speaker locations.

Pookie007,

Didn't you loose some width by toeing in directly at the listener position?
I've found that I was achieving best results with axis crossing around 1m behind my position.

[Relentless]

No it will be a living room, waf won't allow a single sofa...
Also can't orient in the other direction because there is a chimney on the left hand side.

Must say that I'm very concerned about the sound stage with the sofas between speakers

If its not a dedicated listening room sacrifices will have to be made. You will have to experiment with placement. Because the sofa will be shorter than my TV, the tweeter and midrange reflections will probably not be as affected as much as in my case so I would try plan#1 and see if you can get the wife to approve on some sound treatments. Bass traps are not pretty so I wish you luck.

[Kal Rubinson]

Pookie007,

Didn't you loose some width by toeing in directly at the listener position?
I've found that I was achieving best results with axis crossing around 1m behind my position.

Blumlein would advocate that you arrange them with the axes crossing just in front of the listening position for optimizing the sweet spot.

Kal

[Relentless]

Blumlein would advocate that you arrange them with the axes crossing just in front of the listening position for optimizing the sweet spot.

Kal

I have always found a couple feet behind the listening position to work best, but never tried crossing the axes in front. I always stopped toeing in at the listening position. I will try that and see what I come up with.

I knew there was a reason I have procrastinated on installing the spikes. Once 275LBS is planted it is going to be hard to adjust.

[Birdy]

Blumlein would advocate that you arrange them with the axes crossing just in front of the listening position for optimizing the sweet spot.

Kal

Tried this for a time ( following a reading on this forum) and was not convinced about soundstage width. But I must say presence of vocals was much more realistic.
So for small formations, jazz trio, quartet etc... was really nice, but for a symphonic orchestra was less good....

I can't change the toe each time I want to listen to another style of music....
I suppose like for everything else there is a trade to do somewhere... :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Pookie007]

Okay I did a little bit of measurements to figure out where they crossed. While seated in my chair, they cross about 6" in front of my nose. It was a huge difference from when I pointed them to a spot about 5 feet behind my head. When I first set it up, since my wife had a chair to my left, and my daughter is too my right, I wanted them to be able to enjoy it also. Once I realized they were in cahoots and plotting against me I decided to adjust the speakers for the best sound in my position and let them deal with what ever sound they got. They didn't even notice I moved them.

[Pookie007]

In response to losing width, no I didn't notice a loss of width, I did notice a gain in depth.

[Birdy]

Okay I did a little bit of measurements to figure out where they crossed. While seated in my chair, they cross about 6" in front of my nose. It was a huge difference from when I pointed them to a spot about 5 feet behind my head. When I first set it up, since my wife had a chair to my left, and my daughter is too my right, I wanted them to be able to enjoy it also. Once I realized they were in cahoots and plotting against me I decided to adjust the speakers for the best sound in my position and let them deal with what ever sound they got. They didn't even notice I moved them.

So you are following Mr Blumlein's theory and it paid!! :T :T :T

[scanido]

While on the same topic, Kal or anyone, should the rear speakers in a 5.1 be positioned in the same sense where their axis is pointed just in front of the listener, at the same point as the mains?

[Kal Rubinson]

That's how I have mine set but a lot depends on the particular speakers and their positioning.

Kal

[Briz vegas]

Hey thanks Kal. I'm listening to my "audiophile" CD by Sarah K and it has a much more solid and right there sound, right from the vocals to piano and guitar.

I really like the couple of bluesy tracks on this CD, its music that is hifi yet also enjoyble in its own right.

With my gear I have never had a particularly wide sound stage and I have always preferred a more intimate sound to the big stadium that some people are looking for. That is probably why I went for the Naim 5X as it has that sort of sound.

Yeah, I am looking forward to an extended listen session tonight with this "crossing of the flows" setup. Previously I had it set up with the speakers aimed just to just outside my ears, now they are aimed at just outside the opposite ear, or crossing over my lap.

[Birdy]

Hey thanks Kal. I'm listening to my "audiophile" CD by Sarah K and it has a much more solid and right there sound, right from the vocals to piano and guitar.

I really like the couple of bluesy tracks on this CD, its music that is hifi yet also enjoyble in its own right.

With my gear I have never had a particularly wide sound stage and I have always preferred a more intimate sound to the big stadium that some people are looking for. That is probably why I went for the Naim 5X as it has that sort of sound.

Yeah, I am looking forward to an extended listen session tonight with this "crossing of the flows" setup. Previously I had it set up with the speakers aimed just to just outside my ears, now they are aimed at just outside the opposite ear, or crossing over my lap.

Which Sara K?

[scanido]

That's how I have mine set but a lot depends on the particular speakers and their positioning.

Kal

A picture is worth a 1000 words!

Based on my setup with SCMS rears, do you still think i should be pointing them to the same spot as the mains? The rear wall is 80% open to the kitchen.

[Ash]

Hi Birdy,

Option 2 seems like a better choice but maybe you can try to work over the issues with this option.

For example, you can get a nice "L Shape" sofa, with the longer side facing the speaker, and the shorter sider as you have placed in the picture, or a 3 seater sofa infront of the speakers and a 2 seater sofa on the side. This will give you more space for the speakers. This way you can have a gap of 2 meters between the speakers or little more, and still be clear of the couches.

You can also probably fit a nice single chair some where in the chimney side (you have 6 meters to play with, which is not as small as you show in the picture).

Look at the attached picture (sorry phone camera), I have a similar room (if not smaller), N800 and was able to fit a 3 seater in front of the system and a two seater to the side and another 1 seater on the other side (since you have a chimney you can either leave this area clear or look for a chair type seat instead of sofa).

I think you can do it.

Having a couch between the speakers would just look wrong! and guests would be touching the hell out of them and bumping stuff into them.

Hope this helps

[planitismetal]

Hi Birdy,
Having a couch between the speakers would just look wrong! and guests would be touching the hell out of them and bumping stuff into them.

Hope this helps

I agree!!! For me, you have to go with option 1 and find a solution to make bigger the distance between the two speakers...

[Birdy]

A picture is worth a 1000 words!

Based on my setup with SCMS rears, do you still think i should be pointing them to the same spot as the mains? The rear wall is 80% open to the kitchen.

Ouch!

As you say.

No offense but I wouldn't dare to listen so close....

[Birdy]

Hi Birdy,

Option 2 seems like a better choice but maybe you can try to work over the issues with this option.

For example, you can get a nice "L Shape" sofa, with the longer side facing the speaker, and the shorter sider as you have placed in the picture, or a 3 seater sofa infront of the speakers and a 2 seater sofa on the side. This will give you more space for the speakers. This way you can have a gap of 2 meters between the speakers or little more, and still be clear of the couches.

You can also probably fit a nice single chair some where in the chimney side (you have 6 meters to play with, which is not as small as you show in the picture).

Look at the attached picture (sorry phone camera), I have a similar room (if not smaller), N800 and was able to fit a 3 seater in front of the system and a two seater to the side and another 1 seater on the other side (since you have a chimney you can either leave this area clear or look for a chair type seat instead of sofa).

I think you can do it.

Having a couch between the speakers would just look wrong! and guests would be touching the hell out of them and bumping stuff into them.

Hope this helps

Tks for the input :T

Your idea is interesting. I could even consider putting 2 single chairs on the left, close to the chimney. We can find something on rolls so we coud turn them facing the chimney or facing the other sofa depending on the needs or the mood.

This could maybe help reduce the good deal of assymetry who scared Kal above.

I could maybe dig in that direction; still have to talk trhough my wife for the aesthetic part though...

[Birdy]

Blumlein would advocate that you arrange them with the axes crossing just in front of the listening position for optimizing the sweet spot.

Kal

Kal,

I googled for Blumlein & found a lot of interesting things about mics, mics placement, recording, ambiophonic, etc.... but found nothing about speaker's placement.

Would you have, by any chance under hand, a link where they speak about Blumlein's theory but avout speakers and not mics?

Tks,

Birdy

[Birdy]

So till now I have 2 for option 1 & 1 for option 2.... Everybody follow??

Anybody else wants to give his opinion?


Birdy

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal,

I googled for Blumlein & found a lot of interesting things about mics, mics placement, recording, ambiophonic, etc.... but found nothing about speaker's placement.

Would you have, by any chance under hand, a link where they speak about Blumlein's theory but avout speakers and not mics?

Tks,

Birdy

Not off hand. I sort of grew up with it as a strongly recommended setup in the 60's. I will see what I can find in the way of reference material.

Kal