B&W 604s3 Speaker Rewire - Well worth it!

[RebelMan]

I just checked and the drivers are all coupled with simple crimp connections to all the drivers in the 800 series (albeit they are gold plated!!! wooo hooo ha ha).

And the wires??? :W

BTW, gold is less susceptible to oxidation which again points to the first comment about contact integrity as suspect, not the wires. But hey more power to you Dan! :T

[PewterTA]

Wires are the same in all the series 600/700/800. Which I would change if I had a set of 800s.

But I would definitely solder the connections to the drivers for better connection than the simple crimp connection. If that was the bare minimum that I would do.

I was one of the the first to say the connections were the most definite difference maker.

I did unsolder my modified 602s and added crimp connections back to the Belden wire to see if I could hear a difference between that and the unmodified 602s (which essentially should be identical except for wire). After a bunch of back and forths with myself and with 4 other people (who didn't know which was which) we came to a conclusion...which I still can't quite explain. We still picked the 602s with the Belden wire in it as being slightly clearer and better in the upper range. The mid range was a little bit more detailed, but the lower range on it felt pretty much the same. I even had to open up the speakers we all liked slightly better due to not knowing which ones they actually were.

But in my total assessment, both the wires and soldering the connection has made the overall best improvement in the sound quality from the speaker. With that, if I had a set of 800 series I would have no problems with upgrading them and getting much better sound. If you are going to do one thing (like solder the connections), might as well put a slightly better cable on there as well. If in the end, it can't hurt the sound and can only improve it.

[RebelMan]

After a bunch of back and forths with myself and with 4 other people (who didn't know which was which) we came to a conclusion...which I still can't quite explain. We still picked the 602s with the Belden wire in it as being slightly clearer and better in the upper range.

Can you explain exactly how the AB session took place? I am looking for things like how was it facilitated, where the position of the speakers were, what was done to level the SPL's, what was switched or moved or adjusted around each time, what the familiarity of the tracks were, how much did the listening participants know of the test, to what extent did they observe the changes as they were made and so on? I suspect that this was probably an informal/casual setting which leads me to believe that the results could be skewed. I don't doubt for a second what you are saying but opinions/decisions could have been formulated on a somewhat questionable exercise. I can tell you from experience that this would be a difficult test to pull off without a hitch.

[beden1]

It may be easier to email B&W headquarters to ask them what they feel about your findings . . . and see what they express in scientific reasoning.

[Guy]

I wonder if the FST and tweeter also use crimp connectors.

[hifiguymi]

I wonder if the FST and tweeter also use crimp connectors.

Yes it does. Every speaker from B&W I've replaced a driver in (even the 800D) all use crimp connectors. They speed up production and make servicing much easier.

I've never had my hands on a Nautilus so I don't know about that speaker.

Eric

[RebelMan]

B&W uses crimps and solder where appropriate. Both require care in their implementation and both perform equitably when done so.

[wkhanna]

OK. I can’t wait for Dan post even though I told him I would.

He brought both sets of 602's over this past weekend.

Before he loaded them in his car, he left the room and had someone put plastic bags over one set. The person that did this did not know which set was modified and which set where not. Dan had no idea which where which; there are no markings on the speakers distinguishing the modified ones from the OEM. All four are indistinguishable from each other.

We set them up, and used my Music Hall MMF-7 TT as a source with my Sheffield Lab LP, The King James Version - Harry James & His Big Band, and played the first song on the second side ‘Traces’, with the first set of speakers. When it was finished, we turned off the amp, hooked up the second set of speakers, turned the amp on, and I queued up the same track on the LP.

It took me between 5 to 10 seconds to perceive the difference. By the end of the song on the second set of speakers, I would have guessed that we had been listening to two completely different models (if not brands) of speakers.

As always, all in my V humble opinion.

[BassThatHz]

I have seen cables of that thickness handle 960watts continuous; the wires did get warm after a few minutes though, but that is far more than the driver coils can thermally handle. How that affects sound?... no idea.

[george_k]

PewterTA,

Is the that wire 16 or 18 ga?

I can't quit understand B&W's justification for using that sort of wire, especially if it produces such a noticeable difference as wkhanna described.

I guess there's my justification for not spending $$$ on better speaker cables.

Anybody have an idea if this sort of thing is the norm among speaker manufacturers?

[Iggurk]

Link to my modded 70x is here:

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1055&t=29794475

PewterTA, as you also have a 1098, mod it too, you will be amazed of the result ;-)

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=2083&highlight=1098

yves

[PewterTA]

I believe the original is 16ga wire (can't find my wire strippers at this moment to verify 100%) and the wire I used was 12ga Belden wire...

Bill, thanks for putting the pictures up (a shame to hide the NatPs like that) and letting everyone know how we did our testing.

Bill was also impressed by the bass output for how small the speakers were and when he heard what the price was on them :E. I think that made a very good impression on him. :T

For Rebelman, upon switching the speakers we tried to keep the toe in almost identical. What I did was centered the speaker on the stands as equal on all sides as possible and keeping the front of the speaker parallel to the front of the stand (top mount plate) as possible. NO SPL was tested. There should be NO need for that as the speakers were supposed to be identical. Upon testing though after we were done, if there was a difference it was within one dB. Only the amp powered off and on was the only change in the system. Tracks to test were picked by whoever wanted to listen to whichever track (tracks had to be tested twice - once on each speaker, back to back). The only thing the participants new is I may have changed "something" on one set of speakers that "might or might not" have changed the sound. It was a "can you tell any difference, if any" type of test. No one witnessed the actual work done to the speakers, but all were shown the differences on one of each set of speakers.

For an informal "test" with NO scientific sets, I think we (or at least I) tried to be as unbiased as possible.

The thing that really surprised me the most was going over to Bill's and not knowing which speakers were which. I didn't think there'd be as much difference as I thought, but as Bill said, it only took each of us about 5 seconds to tell the modified version from the OEM speakers.

Bill, you were saying about the sound stage differences between the Nat Ps and the B&Ws, I think it's a difference of the B&Ws being a more forward presentation of sound (this is what B&W is known for), versus the Nat Ps which seem to project the sound stage at the speakers and farther back.

[PewterTA]

Iggurk, I'd love to modify my 1098, but I'm just not sure if I'm good enough to solder op-amps in place. I think I could probably do it, but I'd love to have an extra board to test incase I ruin it. Soldering small things is not tough, but at the same point I don't always have steadiest hands.

If I could find someone to do the de-soldering/soldering I'd definitely be tempted to do the sames as you with the OPA627 in & AD825 out. Who knows, maybe someday I'll get around to it!

[dknightd]

If I ever need to open my 703 up, for any reason, I'm soldering all connections. Probably won't replace the wire, unless it is too short for easy soldering.

Did you have any problems soldering to the binding posts? I can imagine that sometimes the metal used for these might not be the easiest to solder to.

If I get bored one day, I might do it anyway. Maybe. When I built speakers all connections were soldered all the way back to the amp (where I used the stock binding posts, which probably had the typical ring held in place with a nut inside) - the fewer and more secure the connections the better!

[dknightd]

I took a lot of time and did make a few marks/scratches on my speakers that while not really noticeable, I notice them.

This whole A/B thing is very complicated. It is very easy to fool oneself - I know, I've been fooled (by myself, and by others). It is possible that you noticed the scratches during testing (maybe just subconsciously), and maybe somehow telepathically (or through facial expressions or other physical means) let your co-listeners know subconsciously which speaker was which.

You report a large difference between the two versions of the speakers.
I'm just trying to wrap my feeble mind around how replacing a clean solid crimp connection could sound so much different than a soldered joint. If both were clean and tight they should be the same, and approximate a solid wire connection - maybe the key is they both approximate no connection, and there is in fact there is a difference in how this is approximated (perhaps small differences in resistance or capacitance).

In the end all that matters is you like the result. And no doubt in my mind that replacing a crimped on terminal with a solder joint could make a difference. I'm just not sure I could hear it reliably if both were good joints.

Anyway, thanks for sharing what you did and what the results were.

[PewterTA]

No problem any time. The small marks on the speakers were made from normal moving and doing the whole process. I let Bill change the speakers so there was no way for me to tell which versions of the speakers I was listening to... Any marks made on the speakers were small enough that being a good two feet or more away, you can't see them.

I've always known that a good soldered connection is far better than a crimped connection. So it would make sense that it could improve the sound.

I'd be happy to demo for anyone else except that I've already modified my "non" set of 602s. I've now done a bunch of sets of speakers (not just B&Ws) and everyone has commented that it's made a very noticeable improvement. So I'm thinking I'm not the "only" one that can notice a difference.

I'll be glad to help anyone that wants to do this themselves and give help to.

I'd still love to get my hands on a set of 802Ds and modify them. Just need the money! lol

[wkhanna]

It is possible that you noticed the scratches during testing (maybe just subconsciously), and maybe somehow telepathically (or through facial expressions or other physical means) let your co-listeners know subconsciously which speaker was which.

While it is true that I do not deny hearing voices in my head on a regular basis, my recently prescribed meds seem to be proving somewhat effective at reducing the frequency of such events, and my doctors are encouraged with the progress I have been making. Regardless, I have yet to have ever heard Dan’s (PewterTA) voice in my head bestowing realization to the path one must walk to attain the ultimate audio Nirvana.

All joking aside, anybody could distinguish the difference. :W

[mrsagibit]

I modded my B&W DM602S1 based on the results of this thread and its time for me to contribute and share my findings.

I soldered my woofer directly to the speaker using silver solder without any changes to the wiring as I do not want to mess around with the mid and bass of the speaker since changing the wires do not have much effect. However, I changed part of the tweeter wiring to pure silver wiring. I did not want to cut off the tweeter connector and totally replace it with pure silver wiring.

The sound coming out from the speaker is now clean and neutral and does not have the characteristic 'B&W' sound. Initially I need to tune up my volume on my A/V receiver to achieve the same volume as before. Now replacing my A/V receiver with a 2nd hand proceed amp and 2nd hand Bryston BP25 pre-amp, my speakers now sing and it is fantastic. The sound is neutral, clean and detailed with good imaging and soundstage. I am enjoying my system and this has been a very great and helpful thread!

P.S Note that DM602S1 are crossed over at 3kHZ instead of the usual 4kHz.

[PewterTA]

Hey, Great to hear that the sound has improved for you! I was going to change it over to pure silver wiring inside the speaker, but most people said to keep it with the copper. Now I might try with silver wiring to see how that changes things.

Anyways, glad to hear it made a difference for you! :T

[mrsagibit]

Do report back your findings from copper to silver wiring. Your photos and reports have helped me greatly. I think 600 series is a gem in B&W line up. With a little bit of tweaking, it sounds even better :lol:

[wkhanna]

You guys must be nuts! You only think it sounds better cuz you expect it to. It’s all in your head.

Oh, wait a second........

Never mind me, I’m hearing voices again. ops:

[PewterTA]

Hey, if being nuts and hearing voices in my head means stuff sounds better, I'm all for it! :lol:

[PewterTA]

Okay so I've done a new "mod" or change to my speakers. Well this one only applies to the 604s. I noticed last night as I was listening and playing around that when I ran my audio through PLIIx with the center (600s3) it was noticeably better in the upper and mid end. Almost like voices were an octive up (not quite that much mind you), but to give an idea.

So I db matched my 604s and 602s and the tonal differences was decently noticeable. Now I have known that my 604s gave me a "darker" presence in the mid/high range and I just assumed it was the design on the crossover. Wasn't worried about it, couldn't change it.

Well actually I did change it. I added some more stuffing to the cabinet (just in the upper part that holds the mid/tweeter) and HOLY CRAP. It has completely changed the sound. I can no longer tell the difference between my 602s and 604s. Now the 604s had only a little bit less stuffing than what's in the 602s and I'm surprised it has changed the sound that much.

Another thing I noticed is the sound stage has completely changed too. It definitely has "moved" some of the instruments in where I'm used to hearing them. Some are closer inbetween the speakers, but they are rock solidly placed. It still has very much a sense of 3-D soundstage and even more when pushing outside of the speakers.

I'm still just amazed at how a little bit of cotton fill can change the characteristics of a speaker.

In my mind's eye, well ear, I would have to say that my 604s sound identical if not better than the 683s and would even say they sound as good as the 703s that I did...maybe even better. Good thing I'll get a chance to take my 604s over and compare them to the 703s! Can't wait to see how close this has gotten the sound. :T

Just goes to show how good B&Ws product is and how with a little bit of tweaking :E the sound quality you can get out of even the lower end model. Here's to you B&W! :T

I still haven't gotten my silver wire to re-wire the internals of the speaker with, but that should be coming in Jan.

[emig5m]

Wow.... Maybe the HTM61 needs some final finesse from you to take care of some of the complaints here about it not matching well with the 683. But then that makes you lose confidence in B&W that they couldn't (or didn't) optimize the speaker to begin with. If this is the case, it kinda gives you the feeling that they purposely degrade/detune the lower models from what they're really capable of because they don't want them sounding as good as their higher priced speakers when they're capable of it....unless the same type of mods pulls the gap back out on the higher end speakers. Then again begs the question... why didn't they optimize the speaker in the first place? Especially for the price of B&W's and the fact they're suppose to be a top notch speaker designer.

[PewterTA]

If I had a HTM61, I'd definitely like to "play" around with it and see what I could get it to do....but I don't have one of them.

I think B&W in a small way does neglect the lower range and not put the time and effort into the lower models. Not because they want to cheat anyone out of anything, but because they don't make the money off the lines. It is an entrance model to their sound and they spend most of the brain power on the 800 series. Which is perfectly acceptable. It happens all the time with Computers and Electronics.

I just think it's really neat that with just some work and willingness to take a chance, one can really enhance their listening experience.

[gremildo]

I modded my B&W DM602S1 based on the results of this thread and its time for me to contribute and share my findings.

I soldered my woofer directly to the speaker using silver solder without any changes to the wiring as I do not want to mess around with the mid and bass of the speaker since changing the wires do not have much effect. However, I changed part of the tweeter wiring to pure silver wiring. I did not want to cut off the tweeter connector and totally replace it with pure silver wiring.

The sound coming out from the speaker is now clean and neutral and does not have the characteristic 'B&W' sound. Initially I need to tune up my volume on my A/V receiver to achieve the same volume as before. Now replacing my A/V receiver with a 2nd hand proceed amp and 2nd hand Bryston BP25 pre-amp, my speakers now sing and it is fantastic. The sound is neutral, clean and detailed with good imaging and soundstage. I am enjoying my system and this has been a very great and helpful thread!

P.S Note that DM602S1 are crossed over at 3kHZ instead of the usual 4kHz.

Hi !

I read this post some time ago and only now I decided to took ou the conectors and soldered the woofer (without changing wiring). And this is exactly what I felt ... the difference is not subtle ! I have a pair of 602 (S2) and always thought something was wrong . I´m in a well treated room (altough very small), with lots of thick bass traps + stands filled with sand and sorbothane pads ... and I never enjoyed the speakers, they just "worked" but sounded "distant". Now, what I'm listening are defined and clean voices (center) and everything sounds more realistic and clean :-) . Wonder if the same improvement can be heard doing it in the terminal connections.

Thanks!

[wkhanna]

Once again, anyone who has tried this mod has reported more than subtle improvement.

Both Dan & I have also found significant sonic gains of improved (not just different) performance with this mod.
We have also found great results with using natural music grad cork for vibration isolation & placing mu-metal shielding around the transformers in all of our gear.

All the naysayers continue to reside in the 'talkers' camp as opposed to those of us in the 'doer' camp that try before we judge.

[PewterTA]

I agree, when I soldered all the connections on mine and Bill's amps... there was a noticeable difference on the amp side of things. Isolating the transformers in the amps with mu metal and cork made an even more impressive gain in quality.

Modifying can definitely improve one's quality of sound they get from their equipment. It's the "every little bit helps" or "only as good as your weakest link" type of thing really seems to apply to me.

Glad people are still taking the time to modify and seeing improvements in doing so! There really is something to all this!

[Audio_ElF]

Just curious and this may be in the thread... But has anyone tried replacing the passive crossover with some kind of active crossover?

[TomScrut]

Just curious and this may be in the thread... But has anyone tried replacing the passive crossover with some kind of active crossover?

I remember a few years ago seeing someone who had done that to some 683s. Just google it as I cannot remember what forum it was

[Audio_ElF]

Just curious and this may be in the thread... But has anyone tried replacing the passive crossover with some kind of active crossover?

I remember a few years ago seeing someone who had done that to some 683s. Just google it as I cannot remember what forum it was

The ironic timing of my question being that I read a few days ago that Linn have developed their "Exakt" digital (DSP) crossover technology to replace the passive crossover in the 802 Diamond...

[TomScrut]

The ironic timing of my question being that I read a few days ago that Linn have developed their "Exakt" digital (DSP) crossover technology to replace the passive crossover in the 802 Diamond...

Yes, I may be getting a demo of them, well disconnecting the xovers in mine and borrowing a DSM and Exaktbox.

[wkhanna]

The ironic timing of my question being that I read a few days ago that Linn have developed their "Exakt" digital (DSP) crossover technology to replace the passive crossover in the 802 Diamond...

This is offered only for the 802 Diamond?

[gremildo]

Another great surprise and improvement here - acoustic , this time (remembering I own the B&W 602 S2): taking out the big piece of foam that surrounds the internal part of speaker improves the sound - voices comes to life in another league and the speakers "breaths" as I never heard! I even didn´t tried to put polyfill there, but it´s something to try (a small and thin piece) - as the things are so much clear now. * I just took of the (1") foam in the front part of th speaker. The one at the bottom ,near the cossover, I did´nt mess with.

Cheers

[SoundEngine355]

Congrats, I rewired my old 800d's and upgraded a capacitor or two, great improvements! Highly recommended

[TomScrut]

Which wire and caps?