For those of you using a sub with 802D's...

[moonlightdrive21]

Hey guys:

Would you mind please answering the questions below, which I think would be helpful to many forum members?:

1) Considering that the 802D's are amazing full range speakers, what made you decide to integrate a sub into the mix?

2) Do you only use the sub for movies and multichannel audio sources, or do you also use it for 2 channel audio CD's?

3) Do you cross over the frequencies, so that certain low frequencies are sent just to the sub and not the 802D's? Or do you double the bass, meaning that the same bass signals that are sent to the sub are also sent to the 802D's?

4) For your crossover, around what frequency do you set it to? Do you vary it depending on movie or music, or did you find a compromise for one setting that always stays the same?

I know that with every audiophile type question, the answer can always be "it depends", but perhaps you can do the best you can "generally" answering the questions?

Much appreciated!

Thanks very much!!
Dave

[miner]

I do not have the 802D; I have the N804. I am 2ch music only.

I use an ASW800 sub with them.

1) I wanted more bass than what my 804s could produce.

2) 2 ch music.

3) 804s go to about 45 Hz; I have sub set @ 50 Hz and below - so a slight overlap.
Sub is hooked up directly to preamp via 2 sub cables.

4) see 3 above

[Aldo]

Hi moon:
I use 4 subs, 2 ASW855 for LFE at the rear and 2 ASW on the front!
The topic here is with the front ones, the ones I use with stereo audio CD playback.
First:
I put those near each front speaker (Left 802D-Sub-HTM1D-Sub-Right 802D), cut the sub freq to 100hzs!
The best way I found to do the connection is:
From the preamp right main output to the SUB right input and then from the SUB output to the AMP filtering the frequencies bellow 100htz. (same for the Left channel!
These give me a great inprovement in the sounstage, bass separation from Left to Right and unlimited bass when it's needed!

Right now I'm using my special outputs from the processor for the SUBS wich doubles the frequencies for the SUB and speaker, these because I'm about to receive a pair of Nautilus and I do not want to degradate the signal passing it through the SUB (if there is any degradation wich I'm not shure).

[moonlightdrive21]

Thanks for sharing guys.

I will assume from the lack of responses that very few people with 802D's are using a sub with them.

Dave

[jack d]

Hey guys:

Would you mind please answering the questions below, which I think would be helpful to many forum members?:

1) Considering that the 802D's are amazing full range speakers, what made you decide to integrate a sub into the mix?

2) Do you only use the sub for movies and multichannel audio sources, or do you also use it for 2 channel audio CD's?

3) Do you cross over the frequencies, so that certain low frequencies are sent just to the sub and not the 802D's? Or do you double the bass, meaning that the same bass signals that are sent to the sub are also sent to the 802D's?

4) For your crossover, around what frequency do you set it to? Do you vary it depending on movie or music, or did you find a compromise for one setting that always stays the same?

I know that with every audiophile type question, the answer can always be "it depends", but perhaps you can do the best you can "generally" answering the questions?

Much appreciated!

Thanks very much!!
Dave

FWIW: I use an SVS PB-12 Ultra/2 with mine. I got the SW for movies but I found that it fills out the very bottom in a subtle way with music. I set the 802s to "large" and the xover at 80 so there is some doubling with the 802s. I use the SW with stereo and HT listening.

[moonlightdrive21]

FWIW: I use an SVS PB-12 Ultra/2 with mine. I got the SW for movies but I found that it fills out the very bottom in a subtle way with music. I set the 802s to "large" and the xover at 80 so there is some doubling with the 802s. I use the SW with stereo and HT listening.

Thanks. Just so I'm clear, all bass below 80hz is going to *both* your 802D's and the sub. thereby doubling it?

Thanks!
Dave

[Kobus]

A "large" setting implies that for 2ch the main speakers get all the bass as well.

A setting of 80 for me would be to high for 2ch.

50-60 sounds good and not localised.

For me.

If I had my sub up front like the admirable system of Aldo, I might think slightly different.

Kobus

[misterdoggy]

I don't use my sub for Stereo and only for HT. I think as you said, the 802D's are a complete stand alone speaker and don't need any help.

[Aldo]

misterdoggy is absolutly right, BUT it depends alot of room accoustics and speaker placement.
In my case I need that extra bass to compensete tha lack of bass I get with the 802D's alone!

[jack d]

Thanks. Just so I'm clear, all bass below 80hz is going to *both* your 802D's and the sub. thereby doubling it?

Thanks!
Dave

That is correct.

[misterdoggy]

You can also assign work that's too hard for the 802D's to the sub by assigning 40hz for the sub, then it only kicks in for ht work (bombs booming etc) keeping the 802D's full

[Angioguy]

I started out with the 803S and felt it lacked the low end I was really looking for, so I got the Velodyne DD-12, and that combination did quite nicely for me both for stereo and multichannel listening.

A few months later, I listened to the 802D's-- needless to say, they left me so impressed, that I sold the 803S and went for the mighty diamonds. The Velodyne-802 combo is still phenomenal.

Admittedly, I haven't screwed around with the crossover frequencies too much. I did use the room calibration software that came with the sub to achieve the flattest possible repsonse for my room, and the end result is a sound that I'm really happy with, whether I'm listening to two-channel or 5.1.

Hope this helps.

[moonlightdrive21]

Guys, does the doubling of bass between a sub and mains result in less tight, less detailed and natural sounding bass in the room? I know it will depend on many variables, but I mean generally speaking.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Thanks!!
Dave

[jack d]

Guys, does the doubling of bass between a sub and mains result in less tight, less detailed and natural sounding bass in the room? I know it will depend on many variables, but I mean generally speaking.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Thanks!!
Dave

Pretty much yes. I've been playing around with my bass management and I changed the configuration so that I set all my BWs to "small" and set the crossover at 80hz. It's definitely tighter than when I was doubling. I might play around a bit with the xover but my initial impression is that I prefer it without the doubling.

[earwit]

I have had the 802d's for about a year know, and
have experimented with several pre-amps and configurations.

Remember when you set the crossover frequency it usually
is not a cut off point, it's more like a roll-off point.

In my experience everytime the 802d sounds best set to small
speaker, and the crossover at 80HZ..again lower frequencies
do roll off lower then 80hz. ( this really applies to any floor speaker)

As far as subs go, I use a sub for multi channel music, and theatre.
For basic 2-channel I don't use a sub.. Sound more natural without .

Bob

[moonlightdrive21]

Remember when you set the crossover frequency it usually
is not a cut off point, it's more like a roll-off point.

Bob

Please forgive my ignorance, I'm not very technical. Can you please clarify what you mean by the statement above?

If I have RCA interconnects going from my Classe CA50 2 channel preamp to my subwoofer, and then interconnects going from my subwoofer out to my Classe CA200 power amp, AND I set the cross over on the sub itself to 55hz: Won't this mean that *all* of the signal below 55hz is only going to the sub, and *all* of the signal that is above 55hz is going to my main 802D speakers? In this case all of the signals are going "somewhere" without roll off - right? I assume this is the recommended approach to avoid a potentially muddy bass?

Also, in the configuration I described above, is 100 percent of my Classe CA200 power amp's juice going to the mains for signals above 55hz, or is some of its power getting lost in the mix due to my configuration?

Thanks!!!
Dave

[earwit]

Dave,

What kind of sub-woofer do you have...??
Does your sub have its own built-in amp??

IF I understand you you have a Sub output from the pre-amp to the sub,
and another back to the pre-amp.

Bob

[moonlightdrive21]

Dave,

What kind of sub-woofer do you have...??
Does your sub have its own built-in amp??

IF I understand you you have a Sub output from the pre-amp to the sub,
and another back to the pre-amp.

Bob

Hey Bob:

I will be getting a JL Fatom F113 sub (don't have it yet). I have all the other components mentioned already. It is a powered sub (built in amp).

The configuration I am considering is have the "regular out" on my Classe 2 channel "preamp" going to my sub. Then my sub out going to my Classe 2 channel "power" amp. I don't know if this configuration is ideal or correct, but if I was going to go with the view that I don't want to double the bass between my sub and main speakers, then I *think* this is the best way to hook it up???

Thanks,
Dave

[earwit]

Dave,

If your Classe pre-amp has a Subwoofer output:

Simply send a interconnect cable from the preamp to the sub.
I highly recommend set the crossover at 80hz (on the preamp) and just listen for a while.
No need to send a line back to the pre-amp...

By rolling off I mean, that even if you set the cross-over for the speakers at 80hz you will still get signals lower then that to the 802d's//


I hope this helps..

Bob



This way you

[Kal Rubinson]

Please forgive my ignorance, I'm not very technical. Can you please clarify what you mean by the statement above?

If I have RCA interconnects going from my Classe CA50 2 channel preamp to my subwoofer, and then interconnects going from my subwoofer out to my Classe CA200 power amp, AND I set the cross over on the sub itself to 55hz: Won't this mean that *all* of the signal below 55hz is only going to the sub, and *all* of the signal that is above 55hz is going to my main 802D speakers?

Nope. Usually, the crossover frequency is where each side (main and sub) is 3dB down. Below this, the output to the main tapers off gradually as defined by the crossover slope (6dB/8vo, 12dB/8vo, etc). Above this, the sub tapers of in the same manner (although the slopes do not have to be symmetrical).

Thus, at 30Hz, the main speaker is still outputting some sound and the same can be said of the sub at 100Hz.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

Hey Bob:

I will be getting a JL Fatom F113 sub (don't have it yet). I have all the other components mentioned already. It is a powered sub (built in amp).

The configuration I am considering is have the "regular out" on my Classe 2 channel "preamp" going to my sub. Then my sub out going to my Classe 2 channel "power" amp. I don't know if this configuration is ideal or correct, but if I was going to go with the view that I don't want to double the bass between my sub and main speakers, then I *think* this is the best way to hook it up???

Sorry. There is no full-range or LP output from the f113. You need to feed it separately from the main speakers and you probably want to add some external HP filter to the main speakers.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

With a conventional preamp such as this, there is no subwoofer output. The f113 does not have a HP output for the main speakers. Unless you want to run the 802Ds full-range, you will have to add/buy a HP filter/crossover for them. I use the Outlaw ICBM but that is now discontinued.

Kal

[moonlightdrive21]

Sorry. There is no full-range or LP output from the f113. You need to feed it separately from the main speakers and you probably want to add some external HP filter to the main speakers.

Kal

Thanks Kal!

Do you mean that, unless I purchase a separate device, the configuration of my Classe CA50 preamp with the sub would be limited to just RCA interconnects going from my "regular out" on my Classe to the inputs on the sub? I have done this before using Y connectors on the reg out of my Classe preamp, so I can have one interconnect going to the power amp and another going to the sub. In this scenario, the bass that goes to the sub would also be going to my main speakers, thereby doubling it up - correct? So, there is no way for me to "mostly" separate out the bass that goes to the sub vs. the main speakers without getting another device?

What configuration do you recommend I use?

Thanks,
Dave

[moonlightdrive21]

With a conventional preamp such as this, there is no subwoofer output. The f113 does not have a HP output for the main speakers. Unless you want to run the 802Ds full-range, you will have to add/buy a HP filter/crossover for them. I use the Outlaw ICBM but that is now discontinued.

Kal

I know it depends, but in general would you say that running the 802D's at full range and setting the sub crossover (e.g., to 50hz) would be the best way to go for 2 channel music listening? This would be doubling the bass if I understand correctly, which a few posters said would be less optimal in their experiences. My room is 21 feet by 15 feet with ceilings that start at 9 feet high and gradually extend to 20 feet high.

Thanks in advance for tolerating my questions. Sorry if I am not understanding all of your explanations.

Dave

[Kal Rubinson]

Do you mean that, unless I purchase a separate device, the configuration of my Classe CA50 preamp with the sub would be limited to just RCA interconnects going from my "regular out" on my Classe to the inputs on the sub? I have done this before using Y connectors on the reg out of my Classe preamp, so I can have one interconnect going to the power amp and another going to the sub. In this scenario, the bass that goes to the sub would also be going to my main speakers, thereby doubling it up - correct? So, there is no way for me to "mostly" separate out the bass that goes to the sub vs. the main speakers without getting another device?

Sadly, all true.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

I know it depends, but in general would you say that running the 802D's at full range and setting the sub crossover (e.g., to 50hz) would be the best way to go for 2 channel music listening? This would be doubling the bass if I understand correctly, which a few posters said would be less optimal in their experiences. My room is 21 feet by 15 feet with ceilings that start at 9 feet high and gradually extend to 20 feet high.

Exactly. With double bass, you may have phase issues and you lose most of the advantage of the f113 to EQ the low end.

Kal

[moonlightdrive21]

Exactly. With double bass, you may have phase issues and you lose most of the advantage of the f113 to EQ the low end.

Kal

Kal, Thank you!!

What device can I get to allow me to split the bass between the mains and the sub in my situation? Any specific products/models you can recommend that won't break the bank, but work very well?

Thanks!!
Dave

[moonlightdrive21]

Exactly. With double bass, you may have phase issues and you lose most of the advantage of the f113 to EQ the low end.

Kal

Looking at Marchand Electronics HP crossover devices:

http://www.marchandelec.com/xovers.html

I have a choice of getting an HP/filter crossover device with 24db/octave (2 way) or 48db octave (2 way). Which do you suggest getting?

Also, *before* making the purchase, I have to decide what frequency to get for the crossover setting. Their products don't allow you to adjust the frequency with a switch/knob (they said that fixed resistors allow for better sound). So, the customer has to pick a fixed frequency module to purchase. They can buy a few frequencies and install the hardware themselves.

So, if I want 60hz, and 80hz for example, I would have to buy two different modules, and take off the cover and install only one of them depending on my choice. Of course the dilemma there is that I don't know yet what frequencies I want.

If you *had* to pick 3 cross over frequencies to get, what would they be? I will use this setup for movies and 2 channel audio (reminder that I have 802D's as mains).

By the way, does using an HP filter/crossover device adversely impact the quality of the sound in any way?

Thank god for this forum and people like you and the rest who are willing to help with the gritty details!

Thanks!
Dave

[Kal Rubinson]

I have built crossovers with Marchand modules and they are pretty good but not entirely transparent. 24dB should be sufficient but I have no idea about picking frequencies since that would be particular to your room and setup. I'd start with some measurements to see what your 802Ds are doing now.

Kal

[moonlightdrive21]

Thanks Kal!

I have built crossovers with Marchand modules and they are pretty good but not entirely transparent.
Kal

Is there another choice you can recommend that is under a grand?

[Kal Rubinson]

Off hand? Dunno. Transparency costs. Used Bryston 10B? Or consider one of the Revel subs as they have adjustable HP filters but that means passing the 802Ds signals through the sub all the time. Another possibility is the MartinSound http://www.martinsound.com/pd_mma.htm

Kal

[chinets]

Your answers you put forth in numerical order with 4 ASW 855 subs:
1) With HT and Multichannel listening such as SCAD, DVD-A and HDCD.
2) I use it for HT and Multichannel and even Stereo too when I fancy that.
3) I do cross overs with HT so not as to be too boomy ,and double the bass for Satelite T.V. or for 5 channel relaxing music when I have people around and not auditioning.
4) Yes, I vary according to the source i am listening to or viewing.

Any other question will be it DEPENDS...just kidding.
Hope that gave you an insight on a 802D owner's views.
Cheers and Good Luck.

[moonlightdrive21]

Thanks Chinets and Kal!

Well, for the sake of sharing with other forum members, I thought I would share my first experiences with my new sub and 802D's.

I received my sub last night and hooked it up to my traditional Classe 2 channel preamp. I don't have a filter crossover device yet, so my current setup has me running the 802D's at full range and the JL sub low pass filter was set to 65hz, and 12DB (whatever that means - I had a choice of 0,12 or 24 DB) ). Master volume level was flat.

I only had a couple of hours to try out music and was not yet able to do the ARO calibration that your supposed to do with JL subs.

The sub only has one place it can be in my room, which is in the front right corner next to my speaker. The sub is one foot away from the side wall and about a foot and a half away from the back wall. I have no other choice but to place the sub here in the room. My room is 21 by 15 feet, ceilings start at 9 feet and go to 20 feet (one 15 foot wall is wide open to the kitchen).

I tried listening to a few CD's comparing with the sub on vs. sub turned off.

So, after trying CD tracks from Eric Clapton Unplugged, Alicia Keys Unplugged and Pink Floyd's The Wall, I found that in every instance it sounded better "without the sub" Yikes!! While the bass was weightier and more prominent in the mix with the sub on, it was also less articulate and natural sounding. In some ways, the other sounds coming out of the midrange and tweeter of my 802D's seemed to not sound as good either with the sub in the mix. Weird.

Of course, please take everything I'm saying with a grain of salt, because I have not tweaked everything yet in the sub configuration settings and am very much an amateur at all this. Kal, who is an expert of course, really liked combining the 802D's with the sub I have and he knows what he is doing, unlike me.

Plus, maybe the cross over filter device that we have been discussing in the thread above will make the 802D's with the sub sound better than them without the sub. Problem is that I have to spend $800 on the device to determine this. :roll:

The sub did sound great when I played a Star Wars DVD (5.1) with my Lexicon SSP thrown into the setup.

My next step is to try and live with it for a few days and see how much tweaking can help. Otherwise, I'm going to plop down the money for the filter cross over device and see if that does the trick.

Makes me wonder if there is a SSP out there (for under $5,000), that gives you the high pass and low pass filtering that the Marchant filter does, plus can give me equivalent or better 2 channel audio listening than my Classe CA50 preamp (10 years old). Then instead of spending on the Marchant, I can put that money into the new processor, sell my Classe CA50 and Lexicon DC-1 SSP, and invest in a new SSP/preamp. I always had a separate preamp for 2 channel audio because 10 years ago the SSP's in my price range could not give you the same sound quality for two channel audio as the Classe traditional preamps could. At least from my experiences

Of course any suggestions/tips are very much welcome!!

Thanks!
Dave

[moonlightdrive21]

I should point out that the JL sub is proven to be a world class and phenomenal sub. Many people regard it to be the best out there. So, please don't think that my predictament is a sign that the sub might not be that great. The problem is with my setup and is defintiley not due to the quality of the sub.

Dave

[Kal Rubinson]

I only had a couple of hours to try out music and was not yet able to do the ARO calibration that your supposed to do with JL subs.

Aye, there's the rub.

Kal

[dknightd]

You might consider the TACT RCS 2.2 XP
http://www.tactlab.com/Products/RCS2...tegration.html

It provides for subwoofer integration, and, also room correction for both the subs and mains. I have no first hand knowledge of the the unit, but it sure seems like it should be perfect for your (our) needs.

[Kal Rubinson]

The TacT is a completely digital device, so that must be considered in terms of integration into a system.

Kal

[moonlightdrive21]

My JL sub is calibrated and tweaked and as expected sounds MUCH better. The problems I had with "unnatural sounding bass" is no longer an issue with 2 channel music. Some CD's do still have more articulated bass without the sub, but many CD's "overall" sounded better with the sub. Without a bass management processor/preamp, you have to use the sub settings, which is a pain in the ass to keep adjusting (will adjust it depending on the source) and is limited. But once it's tweaked, it's terrific.

Movies are superb. Never ever had bass that you could feel in my system, now I do. And it does that while still being tight.

Dave

[dknightd]

The TacT is a completely digital device, so that must be considered in terms of integration into a system.

Kal

You can get AtoD and DtoA converters for it if you need.

[Kal Rubinson]

You can get AtoD and DtoA converters for it if you need.

Sure but, to state the obvious, that is less than an optimum situation.

Kal

[dknightd]

Sure but, to state the obvious, that is less than an optimum situation.

Kal

I'm not so sure it is obvious.
10 years ago I would have absolutely agreed. Today I'm not so sure.
With the improvement in AtoD and DtoA converters I think you may be better off doing the correction and crossover in the digital domain, rather than in the analog domain. If you use only digital sources that simplifies things even more.

What would you consider the optimum solution?

[dknightd]

Actually, I suspect the Velodyne SMS-1 does its correction in the digital domain as well. But I could be wrong.

If so, it does AtoD, digital parametric equalization, then DtoA. Don't you use one of those? Does it work that way? Does it work OK?

[Kal Rubinson]

I'm not so sure it is obvious.
10 years ago I would have absolutely agreed. Today I'm not so sure.
With the improvement in AtoD and DtoA converters I think you may be better off doing the correction and crossover in the digital domain, rather than in the analog domain. If you use only digital sources that simplifies things even more.

What would you consider the optimum solution?

Well, it's not all black-and-white and it depends, as I said, on the system. I use a Meridian 861 in one of my systems and it digitizes all its analog inputs. It does it damn well and it has very good roomEQ but I'd still prefer not to insert additional conversions.

So, I think that a good analog crossover followed by digital EQ for the sub would work best in this system, which seems to be basically an analog one. For an all digital system, the TacT or the Meridian or other all digital EQs would be fine.

BTW, in response to your other post, I do often use the SMS-1 but the crossover is implemented ahead of it and it only digitizes the bass/sub signal. As you know, reasonably transparent conversions are much easier for the LF.

Kal

[dknightd]

Reads like it should be a good solution. But how do we do it? For people who haven't made the multi channel jump yet (me, among others) where can we find a good analog crossover? Do we have to build one? Can a good one be bought for reasonable cost?
I'm leaning toward using digital as source - I'll keep a record player to do AtoD on stuff that is no longer available, and for those times I just want to listen to vinyl.

For somebody with 802 mains here is what I'd suggest. First, treat your room.
Then treat it some more. Move your speakers and seat around. Treat your room some more.
1) try using 802 by themselves for stereo.
2) If you still think you need a subwoofer, let the 802's do their thing, use a sub (or two) below 40hz.
3) If you do Multi channel, just let it do its thing (after calibrating it - and allowing
for personel preference)

Got to go. Post or delete? I post and hope there is nothing stupid.

[Kal Rubinson]

Reads like it should be a good solution. But how do we do it? For people who haven't made the multi channel jump yet (me, among others) where can we find a good analog crossover? Do we have to build one? Can a good one be bought for reasonable cost?
I'm leaning toward using digital as source - I'll keep a record player to do AtoD on stuff that is no longer available, and for those times I just want to listen to vinyl.

For somebody with 802 mains here is what I'd suggest. First, treat your room.
Then treat it some more. Move your speakers and seat around. Treat your room some more.
1) try using 802 by themselves for stereo.
2) If you still think you need a subwoofer, let the 802's do their thing, use a sub (or two) below 40hz.
3) If you do Multi channel, just let it do its thing (after calibrating it - and allowing
for personel preference)

Got to go. Post or delete? I post and hope there is nothing stupid.

Quite reasonable. I'd build the crossover or buy a used one from the days when these were fashionable (and modify it to suit). Another possibility is simply a switched capacitor at the input of the main amp to the 802Ds; will get you a first order rolloff.

Kal