Hello! New Member with Questions

[mrohde]

Hello,
I must say that I am excited to be amongst B&W brethren here!

I have a treated (Alpha Certified) 7.1 HT room that is entirely B&W speakers (more on that below). This room has gone through several upgrades. As many of us have had to face, I am due to do the HDMI upgrade. I am currently using:

Denon DWV 5910CI (HDMI ready)
Sony DA4ES receiver (NOT HDMI ready)
Samsung 52” DLP (NOT HDMI ready)

So the upgrade is a two step process step one is the receiver/amplification step 2 is the TV lets not talk about step 2 and concentrate on step 1 the audio.

Equipment:
Receivers: Sony DA4ES
Speakers: All B&W
Fronts 803S’s Bi-wired w/ MIT Terminator 2 Speaker Hose
Center: HTM2 Bi-wired w/ MIT Terminator 2 Speaker Hose
Sides: DS8S’s
Rear: 805S’s


This system sounds great but the sound stage might not be as good as that demonstrated at the dealer.

So, I’m looking to upgrade the receiver/ Amp system. I’d appreciate any suggestions on a system that brings out the potential of my fine B&W’s. I really can’t go real high end but can go mid-range. I was thinking about starting with a Denon AVR-4806CI and adding a 7.1 amp.

Things I don’t care about:
Multi room
High end remote (I have an RC 9500)

Stupid question time:
I know B&W’s crave more than most integrated systems can provide I don’t think it is wattage so is it amperage?

I should also mention that I watch a lot of movies but listening to music is also important to me probably 60% movies 40% music.

I’d appreciate any feed back!

Glad to be here!

Thanks!
Mike

[Jeff]

Powering all those B&W's with your receiver would be the low point in your system. Does your receiver have 5.1 pre amp out? If so, look to purchasing one or more off board amps. I have the Sony 777ES pre/pro with off board amps. The sound is very good. That way you can hold off on updating your pre/pro until the needed funds are available.

It sounds like your looking to upgrade your receiver. Given the level of your speakers, I wouldn't go with a receiver. An HT pre/pro should be considered and separate off board amps.

I'm not sure what your buget is, but a STARTING point for a 5 channel amp would be the Rotel RB-1095 (200x5). It's performance is above it's price range. However, your speakers can produce much smoother mids and highs than the rotel can deliver. Naturally, you must have a higher budget for these betterments.

Perhaps purchasing both HT separates is a little more than you wanted to do. However, if you purchase the Denon, it would be a bigger mistake than waiting (if necessary) to purchase an HT pre/pro and off board amp. IMHO

[Ted]

:agree:

Rotel would be a good place to start without getting too expensive. As Jeff said, if you could at least get a new separate amp and use your Sony as a Pre that would be a step in the right direction for you.

For others giving you advice, you may want to include what price range you'd be willing to spend for an amp and perhaps a pre/pro. Also, a lot of people may steer you towards used equipment and perhaps depending on your budget you could get into Classe another higher end piece.

Good Luck!

[mrohde]

Thanks for the replies!

OK, I'm going into unkown territory (for me) the Denon AVR-4806CI has 7.1 preamp out. Doesn't that mean that I could use the 4806 as a pre/pros and connect it to an amp?

Price wise i'd like to stay under 6k if i can.


Thanks again!

[sg2]

Hi,

Yes, that is exactly what it is intended for.

If you don't want another upgrade soon, here are a couple things to watch :

- is the HDMI connectivity of the new receiver going by the "1.3" HDMI spec ? If this is not the case, then as soon as new media players (HD-DVD or BluRay) are able to produce high color content (16 bit color depth on each of R/G/B), you will be feeling updatitis again... This also stands true for the source and display elements of course...

- a receiver having "HDMI connectivity" essentially says nothing at all. Here are at least three things to carefully watch :

o is the receiver able to upconvert *all* video inputs (composite, S-video, analog RGB, analog YCbCr components) to HDMI ?

o if this is the case, is it able to upconvert to *any* HD resolution ? at least the standard 720p, 1080i and 1080p

o is the receiver able to process and decode the two new high definition audio encodings that come with HD-DVD and BluRay ? (Dolby TrueHD and the DTS variant of the same uncompressed high bandwidth PCM streams)

- room equalization (an absolutely essential item to me at least for very low frequency room modes, it makes no sense to spend tons of $ into high end linear hardware which will end up resonating +12 dB at 25 Hz) seems to mature now. As it is all-digital these days, it can only be integrated in the digital domain BEFORE volume adjustment (otherwise you end up using only a few bits of the EQ dynamics, which makes absolutely no sense at all). Thus, having it integrated in the AV receiver or pre-pro, at the output of the decoders and before volume selection, is the perfect place. Now that Denon has moved to Audyssey EQ, it seems to at last start yielding usable results. If you have a chance to try it at home in your own room, use a $50 RadioShack digital SPL meter and a frequency tunes CD (like the excellent http://binkster.net/extras.shtml) and check that after auto calibration, all 1/3rd octave tunes play equally loud. In my opinion, only the top end version of the Audyssey EQ is good for that purpose, and as far as I understand it, only the top end Denon's have the top end Audyssey EQ...

- still on HDMI - it is really a mess of traps... If you have managed to work out a source/processor/display chain that looks a priori coherent as in what streams it can handle (typically, all devices "HDMI 1.3", plus source 1080p, processor able to upconvert anything to 1080p, display 1080p), and you think you've done good, then youvery likely did not, and will soon start to wonder why in hell you have all those motion artifacts, deinterlacing artifacts, and so-called "judder" as in any moving scene often looks all but smooth (or if it looks smooth it is also totally fuzzy). The main reason behind this is, the original film capture was done at a certain image rate (let's say 24), and if your chain at some point is not able to handle that frame rate (but rather 50 or 100), then you will have a component doing its best to convert 24 images/second into 25 or 50 or 100, which can *only* end up in bad results. The only way to determinstically get rid of any motion artifact is to have a chain which is end-to-end compatible with all framerates that you can have at the source medium level, and their multiples up to "flickerfree" rates. Imho, this should be all of 24, 25, 30, 48, 50, 60, 75, 100, 120. And it is totally unlikely that you can find a source/receiver/display setup which handles all those framerates *now* (while it will of course come in the close future). Just a hint : none of the currently available HD-DVD and BluRay players that I'm aware of are capable of outputting 24 frames per second of 1080p video, they all deliver 50 or 60 frames per second with some internal processing.

- still on HDMI (a book should be written :-), there is another trap, which is HDCP content protection (a scramble mechanism used to enforce that you cannot grab the uncompressed digital picture flow anywhere in your system). The catch is : it is not because a given device is HDCP-compliant, that it will be able to effectively process HDCP-encrypted flows... Because HDCP is two things : both a processing algorithm, and a "key", specific to the given device, that the manufacturer has to purchase from the HDCP administration. You see it coming... some low end manufacturers will implement the HDCP processing hardware just to put the HDCP sticker on their stuff (which is allowed as soon as they have the hardware), but won't buy the key and put it into the device's firmware, to cut corners... So HDCP, but no film at 11 For example, all of the currently available pretendedly HDCP-compatible PC video boards (nvidia- or ATI-based) fall in that category : the manufacturers have embedded the HDCP hardware but none has put a valid HDCP key in the firmware.


All in all, in my opinion, now is the absolutely worst moment to invest money in the AV elements, because all this HD/HDMI/HDCP/whatever associated bloated crap is all but mature and stabilized. I think you'd better be aware of that before actually draining the wallet.

Now, all this said, and if you are still willing to do so, here are a few pragmatic suggestions :
- on the display side, the only displays available now that are HDMI1.3 (including deep color) and able to display all frame rates are some projectors (look for the HC5000 etc.)

- on the receiver side, newer Denons w/ Audyssey EQ seem good for the money but check all of the HDMI related matters above. The new Lexicon MC12HD has a really good EQ, but it unclear how it handles all the HDMI pitfalls above (and it is very expensive).

- on the source side, all HD-DVD and bluray players available now (very slow, do not deliver deep color content, nor 24 frames/second flow) are clearly to be taken as "first generation" stuff, sold for a premium price, and I'd bet that in a couple months, prices will be massively slashed, while the features and responsiveness will be where they should. In other words, too much money for very bare stuff now.

- in all of the chain's components (source, receiver, display), the upconverting/deinterlacing/motion compensation hardware is a crucial component, and all those components were not born equal. Even though I claim above that none is really satisfying as they are now, I'd venture to suggest to look for Gennum chips which yield the "less bad" results I've been watching.

I know I sound negative, but unfortunately all the marketing bla-bla does not highlight the items above, which still stand.

Regards,
--
Stéphane

[akhter]

Hello,
I must say that I am excited to be amongst B&W brethren here!

I have a treated (Alpha Certified) 7.1 HT room that is entirely B&W speakers (more on that below). This room has gone through several upgrades. As many of us have had to face, I am due to do the HDMI upgrade. I am currently using:

Denon DWV 5910CI (HDMI ready)
Sony DA4ES receiver (NOT HDMI ready)
Samsung 52” DLP (NOT HDMI ready)

So the upgrade is a two step process step one is the receiver/amplification step 2 is the TV lets not talk about step 2 and concentrate on step 1 the audio.

Equipment:
Receivers: Sony DA4ES
Speakers: All B&W
Fronts 803S’s Bi-wired w/ MIT Terminator 2 Speaker Hose
Center: HTM2 Bi-wired w/ MIT Terminator 2 Speaker Hose
Sides: DS8S’s
Rear: 805S’s


This system sounds great but the sound stage might not be as good as that demonstrated at the dealer.

So, I’m looking to upgrade the receiver/ Amp system. I’d appreciate any suggestions on a system that brings out the potential of my fine B&W’s. I really can’t go real high end but can go mid-range. I was thinking about starting with a Denon AVR-4806CI and adding a 7.1 amp.

Things I don’t care about:
Multi room
High end remote (I have an RC 9500)

Stupid question time:
I know B&W’s crave more than most integrated systems can provide I don’t think it is wattage so is it amperage?

I should also mention that I watch a lot of movies but listening to music is also important to me probably 60% movies 40% music.

I’d appreciate any feed back!

Glad to be here!

Thanks!
Mike

I would recommend the Arcam AVR350 as a great reciever for about USD2500. You can think of it as one of the best pre/pro for the price, with built in power-amps. If you want better then look in to the Arcam AVP700/P1000 combination (total USD4000). Personally if I had 6k to spent on your setup, I would make sure I have a good sub (like a Velodyne DD series) and an AVR350. With left over money, I would get a good power amp (and using the pre-outs) for the front L+R or L+C+R.

[chinets]

mrohde,
Welcome to the forum!!
You really need a good pre/pro and amp for those speakers you are driving.
Good place to start would be ,the Rotel 1098 pre/pro and 1095 amp to drive those speakers if cash is a problem.
If cash is not a problem ,then I would seriously look at the Krell line, Classe line or the Bryston and Mcintosh lines for Pre/Pro and Amp!!
Let your ears make that final decision, as different equipment will make your speaker sing a different tone, so make sure what sounds good to your ears out of all these equipment and makes that I have just suggested to you.
Good Luck and welcome on board!!