HT without center channel

[zakhaku]

Hello
I am building up my home theater piece by piece and I was looking for some words of wisdom. I have a pair of N 802 for the fronts and was considering getting an HTM2 for the center channel. Rather than use an average center channel like the HTM2, how about no center channel at all? Has anybody experimented with this?

I use an Integra DTC-9.4 pre/pro. Assuming it does a good job of mixing the center to the fronts, what should I expect?

Since I do not have an HMT2 as of now, I was wondering if anyone ever tried this and noticed a significant change in dialogue quality.

Thanks

[chinets]

In HT, The Center speaker is a MUST !

HT without center speaker is like having a Ferrari in your door way, without a Ferrari motor under your hood. :E ( It ain't going to fly!). You seriously lose vital Dialogue and information, as the most important speaker In HT or Multichannel 5.1 etc in SACD and DVD-A is the center speaker ,so if you chose to take it out, then you might as well enjoy Stereo HT :W
For those N802 ,I would seriously contiplate getting the HTM1 instead ,and forget the HTM2, that is how vital and important a center speaker is In HT and Multichannel :T
To me ,No center No HT 8O
Pizza without the dough ain't pizza!!! ops:
Get that center:- No Pain No Gain!! :lol:
My 2 cents and cheers!

[akhter]

Hello
I am building up my home theater piece by piece and I was looking for some words of wisdom. I have a pair of N 802 for the fronts and was considering getting an HTM2 for the center channel. Rather than use an average center channel like the HTM2, how about no center channel at all? Has anybody experimented with this?

I use an Integra DTC-9.4 pre/pro. Assuming it does a good job of mixing the center to the fronts, what should I expect?

Since I do not have an HMT2 as of now, I was wondering if anyone ever tried this and noticed a significant change in dialogue quality.

Thanks

If you care mostly about music, HTM2 will be fine. If you care a lot about HT than wait till you can get the HTM3S. Sooner or later you'll need a center.

[zakhaku]

So, my question is, why is the center channel so important? If you have a good front speakers, shouldnt they do the job well. Its not like the information is lost, instead of going to the center, the dialogues go to the front speakers.

[William]

Actually while I don't approve or use it is simply a phantom channel setup. This process has been used (and is used) on stereo almost since the beginning. The original concept for stereo required a center channel but was dropped due to complexity before the stereo LP came out.

So for all the die hard 2 channel buffs you are actually listening to a phantom center.

[htsteve]

So, my question is, why is the center channel so important? If you have a good front speakers, shouldnt they do the job well. Its not like the information is lost, instead of going to the center, the dialogues go to the front speakers.

zakhaku,

Modern soundtrack (Dolby Digital and DTS) and multi-channel music have discrete channels of music or dialog. In these formats, there is specific information sent to the processor to play on a dedicated center channel. If no center channel is there, the best case is that the processor will down mix three channels of information into two channels. This will degrade the original presentation, especially in home theater. Someone speaking in the center of the screen with the voice coming out of the right speaker just doesn't sound right. My bottom line is that for HT, a center is essential.

Hope this helps.

[ColoKurt]

I have the same setup: 2 N802's and no center channel. I admit I am not and HT afficianado but it sounds fine to me. The processor breaks up the center channel info into the two fronts and you get a fine phantom image. I mean, I trust the phantom image to reproduce the finest of vocalists in my music, why isn't it good enough for dialog in a movie? I do agree, though, that if you are not sitting in the sweet spot the dialog may not appear to be coming from the right place.

I'm mostly a two-channel audio guy but I do have some multi-channel SACDs and I hate staring straight into a speaker while listening to music in 5.1. To me, it ruins the stereo effect entirely, even if there's no sound coming out of the center speaker. I think 4.1 makes much more sense for music. Keep in mind, if you skip the center channel speaker you can spend ~50% more for your main front speakers and stay within the same budget. I know this opinion is not widely shared on this site, but in my opinion the center channel speaker is not a good way to spend money.

[Kal Rubinson]

I have the same setup: 2 N802's and no center channel. I admit I am not and HT afficianado but it sounds fine to me. The processor breaks up the center channel info into the two fronts and you get a fine phantom image.

No doubt. It just is not the same as a real source.

I mean, I trust the phantom image to reproduce the finest of vocalists in my music, why isn't it good enough for dialog in a movie?

Because your stereo sources do not have a real center, so they do the best they can (and it's pretty good) with two. Once you have three discrete front channels remixing the center signals into the L/R results in phase/time interference that make it impossible to resynthesize the same center image from those two speakers.

I'm mostly a two-channel audio guy but I do have some multi-channel SACDs and I hate staring straight into a speaker while listening to music in 5.1. To me, it ruins the stereo effect entirely, even if there's no sound coming out of the center speaker.

Close your eyes, if you must.

Kal

[ColoKurt]

Hi Kal, thanks for the reply. I'm a big fan of your column.

I think I do recall reading that argument before in your column. To me, this is an argument for a separate speaker for every instrument in a band. If the stereo image isn't good enough, isn't that what we're left with? Is that nth degree improvement from having a single source really worth an entirely separate speaker, which requires you to reduce your stereo speaker budget by one third? I think the sound stage you get from a good stereo setup is really a miracle, and I don't want to have to close my eyes.

[Kal Rubinson]

The test, imho, is simple. Pick your favorite RCA LS SACD and compare the 3 channel SACD track with the 2 channel over a 3+ channel system and, further, with the 3 channel using a phantom center.

The original experiments done by Blumlein, EMI and ATT all pointed to 3 channels being the minimum needed for stereo but technical limitations in market delivery resulted in only 2 channel stereo. Yes, more discrete channels might be even better but then we would have to develop record/playback standards for them.

As for the visual presence of center speaker, you do get used to it and, yes, sometimes, I think it's on with a regular 2channel source but, given the option, it's always better with an active, discrete center.

Kal

[style]

center

I think center is very important for HT, but see the Rowen speakers
dealer www.dynavox.ch : with 4 speakers they make 7 channel system!?!


Style

[ColoKurt]

Fair enough.

To me, though, the cost element is key to the multi-channel question. I can get away with lesser speakers in the rear without much penalty, but the requirement for three identical speakers up front is where I balk. Is a two-channel source (or even 4.1) better with two 802D's up front or is it better to have three 803D's. The speaker cost is the same, and I'm ignoring the cost of another channel of premium amplification for a good center.

[Kal Rubinson]

Fair enough.

To me, though, the cost element is key to the multi-channel question.

Fair enough.

Is a two-channel source (or even 4.1) better with two 802D's up front or is it better to have three 803D's. The speaker cost is the same, and I'm ignoring the cost of another channel of premium amplification for a good center.

I have no answer for this specific question and I do not consider it a slam-dunk either way. You would be distinguishing between the different advantages/disadvantages of the two approaches and such a choice (lesser of two evils) would be highly personal. In fact, I suspect that I'd make a different choice in each of my two systems (and not just to be perverse). In the big system, I'd go for a pair of 802Ds (although I now have three) but in the other system, I'd go for 3 803Ds.

I just want to make the point that having a real center channel when there is a discrete center channel source is better. That does not mean that there aren't other real-world considerations.

Kal

[ColoKurt]

Well Kal, I think I will pull my center channel speaker back out and give it a listen. It's only an N805 so it's not ideal but maybe it deserves another shot.

[zakhaku]

So, I have been watching movies for the past 3 days without a center channel, and vocals sound fine to me. However, I just picked up a Matrix HTM on Audiogon and its on the way to me, should have it by middle of next week. Till then I will watch a bunch of movies and get accustomed to watching a movie without a center channel. When my center channel arrives, I will plug it in and see how much difference it makes. I will post the results.

If I do not find much difference, I will put the center channel up for sale. Space below and above my TV is very tight and I would sure prefer not having to keep one.

[Kal Rubinson]

Actually, most of my observations come from listening to music as that is the primary use for my equipment. HT/movies is secondary and I optimize for music.

Of course, the same rules of physics and acoustics do apply to both; it's just that I am more critical about the music.

Kal

[ColoKurt]

So, I have been watching movies for the past 3 days without a center channel, and vocals sound fine to me. However, I just picked up a Matrix HTM on Audiogon and its on the way to me, should have it by middle of next week. Till then I will watch a bunch of movies and get accustomed to watching a movie without a center channel. When my center channel arrives, I will plug it in and see how much difference it makes. I will post the results.

If I do not find much difference, I will put the center channel up for sale. Space below and above my TV is very tight and I would sure prefer not having to keep one.

Hey, that's a good plan. Trust your ears!

[moonlightdrive21]

So, I have been watching movies for the past 3 days without a center channel, and vocals sound fine to me. However, I just picked up a Matrix HTM on Audiogon and its on the way to me, should have it by middle of next week. Till then I will watch a bunch of movies and get accustomed to watching a movie without a center channel. When my center channel arrives, I will plug it in and see how much difference it makes. I will post the results.

If I do not find much difference, I will put the center channel up for sale. Space below and above my TV is very tight and I would sure prefer not having to keep one.

Please let us know what you conclude. I am in the same boat as you. Thanks!

[zakhaku]

OK. So after living without a center channel for 2 weeks, I finally got my Matrix HTM center channel (admittedly not a perfect match for my N802, but thats all I can afford right now). I plugged my center channel in and watched two movies (Miami Vice and the Fellowship of the Ring). My conclusion: A CENTER CHANNEL IS A NECESSITY!!

During the time that we (me and my wife) did not have the center channel, we did not really have a problem listening to the dialogues, they sounded fine. But once I plugged the center channel in, they were vastly clearer.

My advice: GET A CENTER CHANNEL. I am not sure whether it is important to spend a lot of money on it or not, but even a modest center channel like the Matrix HTM makes a significant improvement in movie watching experience, even when the fronts are fabulous speakers such as the Nautilus 802. My feeling is, since its only vocals that go to the fronts, a modest center channel is probably good enough for most people.

For reference, my complete setup is:
- HTPC for DVD playback
- Nuforce AVP 16 processor
- Crown K2 driving the fronts
- Adcom GFA 2535L driving center and surrounds (center is 2 channels bridged mon0, 200 watts).

I tried PLII Music also, did not like it very much, immediately switched back to 2 channel stereo mode. I have not tried SACD/DVD-Audio though.

[moonlightdrive21]

OK. So after living without a center channel for 2 weeks, I finally got my Matrix HTM center channel (admittedly not a perfect match for my N802, but thats all I can afford right now). I plugged my center channel in and watched two movies (Miami Vice and the Fellowship of the Ring). My conclusion: A CENTER CHANNEL IS A NECESSITY!!

During the time that we (me and my wife) did not have the center channel, we did not really have a problem listening to the dialogues, they sounded fine. But once I plugged the center channel in, they were vastly clearer.

My advice: GET A CENTER CHANNEL. I am not sure whether it is important to spend a lot of money on it or not, but even a modest center channel like the Matrix HTM makes a significant improvement in movie watching experience, even when the fronts are fabulous speakers such as the Nautilus 802. My feeling is, since its only vocals that go to the fronts, a modest center channel is probably good enough for most people.

For reference, my complete setup is:
- HTPC for DVD playback
- Nuforce AVP 16 processor
- Crown K2 driving the fronts
- Adcom GFA 2535L driving center and surrounds (center is 2 channels bridged mon0, 200 watts).

I tried PLII Music also, did not like it very much, immediately switched back to 2 channel stereo mode. I have not tried SACD/DVD-Audio though.

Thanks for the info!!

But what about watching and listening to DVD concerts? Better in two channel or using the center channel? In my setup, I find the bass and imaging better with two channel as opposed to multispeaker choices on my Lexicon DC-1 surround sound processor (10 years old, but high-end). But, I have the 10 year old original B&W HTM, so maybe if I had a much better center channel, it would be better than using 2 channel (except for the bass).

[Kal Rubinson]

Better in two channel or using the center channel? In my setup, I find the bass and imaging better with two channel as opposed to multispeaker choices on my Lexicon DC-1 surround sound processor (10 years old, but high-end). But, I have the 10 year old original B&W HTM, so maybe if I had a much better center channel, it would be better than using 2 channel (except for the bass).

It's your processor and your source. With real multichannel sources, there's rarely a case where the center channel speaker is not advantageous. With stereo sources, the issue is complicated by the type of processing applied and how the variables are manipulated.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

I have not tried SACD/DVD-Audio though.

Ah! The advantage of using a real center will be even more apparent with these sources.

Kal

[zakhaku]

I dont quite agree with that (although I dont have any DVD concerts to listen to). I think a center channel is advantageous only when the original recording was made with a center channel in mind (like most of the new 5.1 soundtracks).

The reason I say this is because I tried using PLIIx for watching 2-channel cable broadcast, and I didnt like it one bit. Dialogues seemed very subdued and far away in the distance. Now this could very well be because of poor processing in my processor (which is what Kal is saying) or because I have a fairly ordinary center channel speaker (Matrix HTM). However, I believe that Nuforce is a very competent processor and that should not really be the issue.

It's your processor and your source. With real multichannel sources, there's rarely a case where the center channel speaker is not advantageous. With stereo sources, the issue is complicated by the type of processing applied and how the variables are manipulated.

Kal

[zakhaku]

moonlightdrive21:

After I realised that do want to have a center channel, I decided to upgrade my one-day old HTM.

I just ordered myself a B&W HTM2 (nautilus series) center channel, it should arrive around the new year. I will post an update once I plug it in, I hope to hear a significant difference.

Thanks for the info!!

But what about watching and listening to DVD concerts? Better in two channel or using the center channel? In my setup, I find the bass and imaging better with two channel as opposed to multispeaker choices on my Lexicon DC-1 surround sound processor (10 years old, but high-end). But, I have the 10 year old original B&W HTM, so maybe if I had a much better center channel, it would be better than using 2 channel (except for the bass).

[Kal Rubinson]

I dont quite agree with that (although I dont have any DVD concerts to listen to). I think a center channel is advantageous only when the original recording was made with a center channel in mind (like most of the new 5.1 soundtracks).

The reason I say this is because I tried using PLIIx for watching 2-channel cable broadcast, and I didnt like it one bit. Dialogues seemed very subdued and far away in the distance. Now this could very well be because of poor processing in my processor (which is what Kal is saying) or because I have a fairly ordinary center channel speaker (Matrix HTM). However, I believe that Nuforce is a very competent processor and that should not really be the issue.

PLIIx can be very effective if you can adjust the parameters but it ain't discrete, is it? TriField is, imho, superior and, as I've heard from others, so is Logic7. My comments were based entirely on the fact that a stereo source, processed for MCH, is not discrete and, imho again, not something that I would make the effort for. YMMV.

Kal

[moonlightdrive21]

moonlightdrive21:

After I realised that do want to have a center channel, I decided to upgrade my one-day old HTM.

I just ordered myself a B&W HTM2 (nautilus series) center channel, it should arrive around the new year. I will post an update once I plug it in, I hope to hear a significant difference.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

[zakhaku]

OK Guys. I received the HTM2 yesterday, and I have watched two movies (Miami Vice and Spiderman 2) and a couple of episodes of Star Trek.

The difference in sound quality between the HTM2 and Matrix HTM is immense. The HTM2 has far clearer dialogues. I hooked the Matrix HTM back in and it seemed that the dialogues were coming from behind my TV! But when I switched the HTM2 back in.. Voila! Also, the HTM2 is quite a bit brighter than the Matrix HTM.

I was quite happy with the Matrix, but, $300 later, I am happier. Maybe ignorance is bliss, but I think that was an extra $300 well spent.

If anyone is looking for a Matrix HTM at a great price, please contact me.

[scanido]

Got an HTM3s for XMAS and going from a wall mount speaker to the HTM3s is night and day! Dialogue and sound effects from the new center are clearer and more immense.

[DeepEndX]

60%-70% of HT comes from Center Channel. The math speaks for itself.

RH