Need advice: Amplifier for Nautilus 802

[zakhaku]

Hello club members

I am a newbee to the B&W fan club. I just got a pair of used Nautilus 802 for an unbelievable price. The reasons I got them were (1) They sounded awesome and (2) The price was too low to resist. There is no way I could have afforded the $4 - $5K that they actually go for these days. So here is my question, without breaking the bank account, how can I get the most out of these speakers?
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My listening room is about 12 X 20 feet and the application is a home theater system. I was thinking of the following, please dont laugh at my limited choices ( I have rack space + money constraints):

1. I already have a Marantz SR8500 receiver which puts out 125 wpch into 8 Ohms. The amplifier is rated only down to 6 Ohms. However, this is a 7.1 ch receiver and I will be using it in 5.1 mode. I have the option of bi-amping the 802 with the two extra outputs (all channels are rated at 125 watts into 8 Ohms)

2. I run a home theater PC. I could use the 5.1 output of my soundcard (a fairly high end card) into one of the following amplifiers that I have access to, a B&K 7250 (200W X 5) or an Adcom GFA 7500.

3. Buy a reasonably priced two channel amplifier (something with 200WPC) and add it to my receiver just for the front N802.

Just one more question, are the rollers on the speakers meant to be used only while positioning the speakers (toe-ing in etc) or can I use them to actually move the speakers?

Thanks for any help your guys can give me, as you can see I am trying to get the most out of a limited space/budget.

[Aldo]

I take option 3, that will give you the best result!
For the rollers, you can keep them, the speakers CAN be moved around very easy with them and you can live the on. With time you are going to experiment more with the placement and when you are absolutely shure where the speakes are going to be you can put the spikes on!
Just take your time with the spikes, to find the right placement for the speakers takes a lot of listening!

[zakhaku]

Sounds great now

Thanks, Aldo. I purchased a used 200 WPC B&K amp from a local seller and the speakers sound fantastic.

The only problem, almost half my CDs sound like crap. I guess these speakers really do highlight the quality of the recording!

[RNKC]

Nautilus and Diamond series, particularly 802 upwards will highlight whatever is wrong with your system. Your choice of CD transport, DA converter as well as amp + preamp all play a role here. To a limited extent, even the interconnects and speaker cable you use will have sonic differences.

Back to your immediate situation, the B&K amp is a good place to start. Eventually (when finances permit) you might want to consider something else on the amplification front. Biamping from the Marantz probably won't help very much. Generally these kinds of all-in-one units only have one power supply. So even though there are technically multiple channels of amplification, there's only one pool of power from which they can draw. The result is a limited sound that tends to come from the mains with not a whole lot left over in the surrounds and centre.

[akhter]

Thanks, Aldo. I purchased a used 200 WPC B&K amp from a local seller and the speakers sound fantastic.

The only problem, almost half my CDs sound like crap. I guess these speakers really do highlight the quality of the recording!

What CD player do you use?

[chinets]

Yeah, What CD player do you use??

The better the Speakers ,the more revealing will be your final output sound ,and the better the Amp the louder the revealing of the final Output of sound ,so you have to get a good CD source player to get your final sound right!!

Give us your options!! What si your budget?

Keep us posted!!
Cheers

[zakhaku]

I have a Sony DVP NS3100ES SACD/CD player. I used the analog outs from the player. I am using this in conjunction with a B&K Ref 30 preamp/processor. It seems like the DACs in the Sony are a little better than the ones in the processor.

On another note, what's the best way to bi-amp these speakers? I was thinking of using 4 out of the 5 outputs from the power amp to drive the N802s. For the surrounds, I can get another amplifier.

I heard that to realise the true benefits of bi-amping, you need to apply a cross-over BEFORE the power amp. But that would mean disconnecting the N802s internal crossover, I am not willing to touch the insides of these beautiful speakers. So, if I did not use an external crossover (before the power amp), does that mean that I have lost most of the benefits of bi-amping (apart from the fact that now I am driving 400 watts into the speakers).

Thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate it.

[Kal Rubinson]

I heard that to realise the true benefits of bi-amping, you need to apply a cross-over BEFORE the power amp. But that would mean disconnecting the N802s internal crossover, I am not willing to touch the insides of these beautiful speakers. So, if I did not use an external crossover (before the power amp), does that mean that I have lost most of the benefits of bi-amping (apart from the fact that now I am driving 400 watts into the speakers).

Yes. And worse. You are not getting the equivalent of a 400wpc drive by using 2x200wpc for biamping since the woofer ain't seeing 400w.

Kal

[DM3000 Owner]

Work on your chain and go used to stay within your budget. Start with the CD player then the preamp then the amp because you have a power amp that will get you by for a while.

Preamp (Musical Fidelity):

Great perfmormance for the price:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1169665562

If too pricy:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1169614822

CD player - AH Njoe Tjoeb. Awesome bargain:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1168208000

Great amp:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1167418781

If too pricy, or if you really like it loud, try this (Crown K2):

http://cgi.ebay.com/Crown-K2-Power-A...QQcmdZViewItem

If you go with a pro amp like the Crown you will need xlr to rca cables. No big problem.
Everyone here will tell you that the Crown is not refined enough. Listen to it for yourself and decide. Really attractive for the price. Lots of really clean power. I ran a QSC pro amp with horns and it was a smooth as tubes (horns are known to be harsh and the QSC was a smooth as can be - it is very similar to the Crown. I recommend the Crown because it does not use a fan).

Good luck!

[Race Car Driver]

Ive heard Crown is very decent, being a pro amp, everything seems to be positive.
Id love to give one a shot some day.

Power for the N802, id suggest buy as much as you can afford.
I originally had mine running off a 200 watt two ch, and it worked fine, but it was very lacking, stepped up to a 250 watt amp, and the sound improved, but i think the majority was the amp itself, not the power increase. Now Im running a pair of older Bryston Monos, rated at 500 watts or so (not that I believe they both push that power, or can safely with my old house wiring) I can say that the sound and bass has improved quite noticably.

From my understanding the N802s are not as efficient as the 802Ds, i dont know why exactly, but my assumtion would be the ohmload the crossover network puts on the amp. But thats just guesswork, i havent looked into the two different speakers.

[zakhaku]

Great tips and leads, guys. I am on my way to a real audiophile system. I think the first thing I will do is get a good CD player. My total system budget is about $2500 for now.

[johan]

Yes. And worse. You are not getting the equivalent of a 400wpc drive by using 2x200wpc for biamping since the woofer ain't seeing 400w.

Kal

Thanks Kal for enlightening this as most people seem to have misunderstood it.

Johan.

[DM3000 Owner]

Great tips and leads, guys. I am on my way to a real audiophile system. I think the first thing I will do is get a good CD player. My total system budget is about $2500 for now.

I use Bryston 7B St's and had a chance to directly compare (in my living room) them to a QSC 3402 pro amp. They were very close, especially considering the Bryston's are $6,000 a pair and the QSC was discounted to about $850. If I could have gotten a refund on the Bryston's I may have kept the QSC. The Brystons are better btu teh price difference is huge.

For $2500 or slightly more you can get the Musical Fidelity A308CR (I have one, it is really nice), the AH Cd player (I have one of these too, very nice player, especially for the money) and a Crown K2.

A lot of people here have nicer stuff, and there is better out there, but this will be an outstanding system and it is in your budget. I am running a very similar system but use N801's and also run a Benchmark DAC1.

Good luck.

PS - I know of a Crwon K2 for sale for $650. I think you can get it for less because he has had it for sale for a while.

[zakhaku]

Guys, whats your opinion of the Rotel RB-1090? I have a local seller selling it for $1000. It is in mint condition. Its a beast at 90 lbs!! Or do you think I can do better for $1000. I have no idea what the Rotel is going to sound like with the N802. The seller is not giving me the option of trying it out on my speakers before buying it ( I guess I could always buy it and if I dont like it then turn it around and sell it, it appears to have a fairly good resale value).

Here is what I think my final setup is probably goind to look like (I have to use it as a home theater too):

AH Njoe Tjoeb CD player
Sony DVPNS3100ES DVD/SACD player
B&K Ref. 30 preamplifier/processor
Rotel RB-1090 stereo power amp for the N802
Adcom GFA-2535 (in bridged mode) to drive my center channel (Mirage OM-C2) with 200 watts and my surrounds with 60 watts each.

My next upgrade would be an HTM2 center channel.

[Glenee]

Here I go again just asking to be burned beyond belief. I have read the advice of several people and the most honest ones all have the same smart advice let your ears be the judge. I have the 802D's and a HTM3S CC. Bought them from a Rotel, Classe,Mac, and B&W dealer. So I had the chance to try a Rotel on them. Very Good Sound. But something was missing. I like to listen to certain Music louder. The Rotel wasn't right for my ears at this level. I finally picked up 2 Crown K2 Amps. One for the 802's and One for the Center channel on EBAY about $700 each to get me by until I found what I wanted. I also wanted the Amps to match. Matched them with a very good Pre,Cables,Connectors, and speaker wire. I made my own jumpers out of Kimber 8TC and ditched the jumpers from B&W. Turned it on just to get By. My ears have me now shopping for another K2 Amp.
Glenee

[chinets]

Go for it Zakhaku!!!

Zakhaku,

RB-1090 In mint condition and for $1,000 ? Go for it!! Take it and RUN!! :T

That RB- 1090 will run your N802 beautifully ,and has enough juice to do the job very well!!! You'll love that Rotel with your set up, and the N802 will thank you, and yes, you could sell that Amp. easily at that price if the Rotel sound is not your cup of tea. You will have Upgraditis later on, but for the time being ,I really believe that Rotel will run those N802 nicely and make them sing!!

Enjoy your New toys!!!

Cheers!!

[DM3000 Owner]

Here I go again just asking to be burned beyond belief. I have read the advice of several people and the most honest ones all have the same smart advice let your ears be the judge. I have the 802D's and a HTM3S CC. Bought them from a Rotel, Classe,Mac, and B&W dealer. So I had the chance to try a Rotel on them. Very Good Sound. But something was missing. I like to listen to certain Music louder. The Rotel wasn't right for my ears at this level. I finally picked up 2 Crown K2 Amps. One for the 802's and One for the Center channel on EBAY about $700 each to get me by until I found what I wanted. I also wanted the Amps to match. Matched them with a very good Pre,Cables,Connectors, and speaker wire. I made my own jumpers out of Kimber 8TC and ditched the jumpers from B&W. Turned it on just to get By. My ears have me now shopping for another K2 Amp.
Glenee

I'm glad that people are sticking up for these amps. I was skeptical at first, but am a believer now. Like I stated above, I used them with horns, which will sound as harsh as can be with the wrong amplification, and the QSC pro amp worked wonders. I would have bought a Crown because it does nto require a fan, but they are $1400+ new and not available used back then and money was tighter at the time.

As far as the Rotel, if the seller will not come over with the amp and let you try it, why deal with him (unless he is way below market price)?

[zakhaku]

Hmm. I think I will buy the Rotel and if I do not like it, I will sell it off, I dont think it should be aproblem. Plus, the seller has the original box and packaging too.

I am also debating between the Crown K1/K2 and the QSC 3402. However, I am a little concerned about the fan noise from the QSC. What about a Crown K1? I know the K2 is highly recommended, but the K1 is slightly cheaper. I could buy one K1 right now and then later on buy another one and mono block the two speakers.

[Glenee]

The Rotel is a Very Fine Amp. Just not my sound too mushy in the lows. I like my sound room filling and in your face when I want it. The Rotel cannot do that to my satisfaction. The Key here is to MY EARS. One of the things I have found out is the K series amp has a Y switch on the back that allows me to run one on each speaker with two sets of post available one for the Highs and One for the lows Just use the Left or right input connection to output that channel in Mono to both post on the speakers this will supply 500 watts seperated and still carry down too a a 2ohm load easily. I can also use the Mono Bridge switch to deliver 1200 watts but no into a 2ohm load only a 4ohm. In other word theses amps can be configured easily for what ever use I have for them in the future. Go to Crown website Look for the manual. Look under hookups and look at figure 3 and you will see the hookup I described first. So they can grow as you do.
Glenee

[DM3000 Owner]

The Rotel is a Very Fine Amp. Just not my sound too mushy in the lows. I like my sound room filling and in your face when I want it. The Rotel cannot do that to my satisfaction. The Key here is to MY EARS. One of the things I have found out is the K series amp has a Y switch on the back that allows me to run one on each speaker with two sets of post available one for the Highs and One for the lows Just use the Left or right input connection to output that channel in Mono to both post on the speakers this will supply 500 watts seperated and still carry down too a a 2ohm load easily. I can also use the Mono Bridge switch to deliver 1200 watts but no into a 2ohm load only a 4ohm. In other word theses amps can be configured easily for what ever use I have for them in the future. Go to Crown website Look for the manual. Look under hookups and look at figure 3 and you will see the hookup I described first. So they can grow as you do.
Glenee

Be careful monobriding these things. Your impedance curve dips pretty low, keep a factor of safety. These amps make so much power you really just need one stereo unit anyway.

The QSC amps fans are not that noisey, but they do make noise. I put a low flow fan that is silent in my QSC 200 woc amp, but I use it on horns and they don't use very much power at all. Go for the Crown. No fan and no worries.

[zakhaku]

Guys

Awesome advice. Here is what I have now:

Sony DVP NS3100ES SACD player
Integra Research DTC-9.4 HT processor
Crown K2 driving the front N802's
Adcom GFA 7500 driving the center and surrounds
Canare XLR cables

Speakers:
N802 fronts
Mirage OM-C2 center
Mirage surrounds

The whole thing (except speakers) cost me about $1900. The system sounds AWESOME!! I know there are some weak links (Integra pro, adcom amp, Mirage center channel speaker), but as time goes by, I will slowly upgrade these. I am on the lookout for an HTM2.

The most surprising thing is, I dont think I will ever need a subwoofer. The bass goes very low and is incredibly clean on the N802's driven by the Crown K2.

I will try and post sone pictures just as soon as I get my living room in order!

[DM3000 Owner]

Guys

Awesome advice. Here is what I have now:

Sony DVP NS3100ES SACD player
Integra Research DTC-9.4 HT processor
Crown K2 driving the front N802's
Adcom GFA 7500 driving the center and surrounds
Canare XLR cables

Speakers:
N802 fronts
Mirage OM-C2 center
Mirage surrounds

The whole thing (except speakers) cost me about $1900. The system sounds AWESOME!! I know there are some weak links (Integra pro, adcom amp, Mirage center channel speaker), but as time goes by, I will slowly upgrade these. I am on the lookout for an HTM2.

The most surprising thing is, I dont think I will ever need a subwoofer. The bass goes very low and is incredibly clean on the N802's driven by the Crown K2.

I will try and post sone pictures just as soon as I get my living room in order!

Great. Glad you like the K2. Sony makes some very good CD players. You can always add a good DAC like a Benchmark DAC1 and use the Sony as a transport. As far as a Pre, I stick by the Musical Fidelity. an A3, A3.2 or A3.5 woudl be less than the A308cr, but the 308 is really nice (and heavy).

[Glenee]

You are going to love that little amp, doesnt take up much space does it. I am after my third one but these guys keep out bidding me on EBAY. Just tried a set of Bel Canto REF 1000 Mono Blocks against it. I think I will keep my K2. The K2 is too good for my ears and my wifie just loves the little thing.
Glenee