Is Kevlar holding B&W back?

[bigburner]

I was talking to an ex-B&W owner today. He believes that these days there are better materials than Kevlar with which to build mid-range drivers, e.g. carbon fibre and modern plastics, but B&W can’t use these materials because Kevlar is now so integral to their brand.

Every time you see a picture of a B&W speaker there’s that golden Kevlar driver. Every time you pick up a B&W brochure the word Kevlar is prominent. It would be like The Coca-Cola Company changing their branding.

His issue with Kevlar is its lack of responsiveness when used in a 2-way or 2.5-way speaker. He gave the example of listening to Diana Krall singing with a double bass in her backing band. When a double bass note is played it sounds as if Diana steps back from the microphone because the Kevlar driver isn’t responsive enough to manage the change of frequencies.

He has less issue with using Kevlar for a mid-range (only) driver in a 3-way speaker because there are fewer demands on it to be responsive.

Would anyone like to counter these claims?

Nigel.

[Race Car Driver]

Id think its not the Kevlar that is so integral to their brand as the tweeter on top and "yellow" midrange driver.

Why not just throw a yellow CF driver in there then if cf is so much better?


As far as the artists "stepping back from the microphone" I do hear that in some of my albums, I thought it to be a few things, driver as one, but power and source as another. Maybe the amp isnt up to the duty?

Never really dug into it though.

[Fraise]

I was talking to an ex-B&W owner today. He believes that these days there are better materials than Kevlar with which to build mid-range drivers, e.g. carbon fibre and modern plastics, but B&W can’t use these materials because Kevlar is now so integral to their brand.

Every time you see a picture of a B&W speaker there’s that golden Kevlar driver. Every time you pick up a B&W brochure the word Kevlar is prominent. It would be like The Coca-Cola Company changing their branding.

His issue with Kevlar is its lack of responsiveness when used in a 2-way or 2.5-way speaker. He gave the example of listening to Diana Krall singing with a double bass in her backing band. When a double bass note is played it sounds as if Diana steps back from the microphone because the Kevlar driver isn’t responsive enough to manage the change of frequencies.

He has less issue with using Kevlar for a mid-range (only) driver in a 3-way speaker because there are fewer demands on it to be responsive.

Would anyone like to counter these claims?

Nigel.

Im curious since you mentioned that he's an Ex B&W owner, what is he running now and when he mentioned the kevler mids in a 2 way application, exactly which driver was he referring to. ie, 602's, or 805's. I do agree that the kevlar is extremely integrated into their branding but i can't comment as to whats better.

[RobP]

Here is a little info from B&W on that matter.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.techfeatures/ObjectID/3808A254%2D3AB8%2D11D4%2DA67F00D0B7473B37

[BTB]

As far as the artists "stepping back from the microphone" I do hear that in some of my albums, I thought it to be a few things, driver as one, but power and source as another. Maybe the amp isnt up to the duty?

I also thought it might be an amp issue... where the driving amp is unable to maintain current demands at certain volume levels or complex passages of music. I also used to hear alot of that sort of thing with my speakers until I recently "over amped" them.

That said B&W themselves seem to think that Kevlar finds it's best application in their mdirange only drivers.

Doesn't driver diameter also play a role here? Surely smaller drivers expected to produce low frequencies would be prone to compression?

[gerardhn]

bigburner.
Which member do you expect to give an answer to your question/ topic?
It is impossible to know this ; when you are not a researcher in this field.

[bigburner]

Im curious since you mentioned that he's an Ex B&W owner, what is he running now and when he mentioned the kevler mids in a 2 way application, exactly which driver was he referring to. ie, 602's, or 805's. I do agree that the kevlar is extremely integrated into their branding but i can't comment as to whats better.

He's currently running Paradigm Signature S8 speakers which you'll find here: http://signature.paradigm.com/Flash_...ifications.pdf

He started with 602 S3's. Next he bought 603 S3's and moved the 602 S3's to the back. Next he bought 604 S3's and moved the 603 S3's to the back. Then he replaced the 604 S3's with the Paradigms. I didn't ask what his other speakers are now.

[bigburner]

Here is a little info from B&W on that matter.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/...7F00D0B7473B37

Robert, I found that article on B&W's Web site too. It's interesting that B&W first started using Kevlar as a cone material in 1976.

Nigel.

[bigburner]

bigburner.
Which member do you expect to give an answer to your question/ topic?
It is impossible to know this ; when you are not a researcher in this field.

Hi Gerard,

I was wondering whether this is well known misinformation spread by B&W's competitors or the observations of an astute audiophile. If it's the former then I presume that some members of this forum would have heard this story before.

Nigel.

[ArtyG]

One departure from near total kevlar look is the 10" subwoofer speaker in the B&W ASW 675. This long throw speaker is primarily composit design consisting of aluminum, paper and Kevlar. However the typical Kevlar is fairly hard to "see" in the pictures of the product....

http://www.bwspeakers.com/images/SpeakerModel/images/ASW_675/main.jpg

[Kal Rubinson]

One departure from near total kevlar look is the 10" subwoofer speaker in the B&W ASW 675.

B&W uses Kevlar only in midrange drivers and, in addition, in 2way speakers where the mid and woofer are one. Thus, Kevlar is not used in subs or tweeters, for that matter.

Kal

[Sim reality]

Since this entire thread is based on conjecture, this is my theory:

When a company invests the amount of time an energy branding and researching the use of a particular material they pretty much understand the characteristic of the material, tweaked it's composition and designed around all the "curiosities" (IE: how else did they know how stiff to make the FST ring?).

If B&W switched materials now they would spend a lot of money and time to basically develop the "signature" sound that they have spend the last 30 years doing with Kevlar (if not, I bet a lot of owners would complain that the new sound is too ____).

I don't by the "modern plastics" argument because Kevlar is basically a plastic composite... The material to have a real advantage would be carbon fiber.

[dknightd]

Hi Gerard,

I was wondering whether this is well known misinformation spread by B&W's competitors or the observations of an astute audiophile. If it's the former then I presume that some members of this forum would have heard this story before.

Nigel.

I've heard the story. I have to idea if it is true or not.

[sikoniko]

I don't have time to read that article to see if it contains the same info, but I have read that the engineers prefer the aluminum type material of the nautilus over the kevlar.

[ArtyG]

I appears that B&W are using a new material in the 800 series bass speakers. They call this Rohacell. A search of their website does not reveal to me any particulars on this new B&W material.

Does anyone know what the Rohacell material is?

[Sim reality]

Rohacell should be under the 800 series development paper... If I remember it's carbon fiber sandwich with some sort of foam between the carbon fiber layers.

[RobP]

I know that this topic has been brought up before on other audio forums, and from what I remember it seemed to always start and come from B&W bashers and those who represented products that were in direct competition with B&W.
So, unless they can show some lab results showing what they claim, I tend to not to pay much attention to what they say.

Just remember its best to trust your ears first, not someone elses mouth.

[Race Car Driver]

I prefer to trust turkeys.

[dknightd]

I prefer to eat turkeys

[Andrew M Ward]

He's currently running Paradigm Signature S8 speakers

Well that makes sense,
no company on earth hates B&W more than Paradigm...

I'm sure he's been "re-educated" good luck

Note:
B&W is largely despised by other speaker companies, and mostly for predictable reasons, firstly, B&W is successful without disparaging other companies, they are successful without comparing themselves to anybody else, they are successful (period)

Pretty much since paradigm got purchased by and investment company they've really gotten mean, and seem to specialize in "pointing out" what everybody else is doing wrong instead of just making better speakers themselves... Ah, the Audio Wars...

Wilson Audio's attacks on B&W would make a politician blanch - lately they like to "make fun" of the B&W diamond tweeter yet Wilson does not even make a tweeter, they buy them off the shelf from JM Lab, what would Wilson know about tweeters?

The answer: Virtually nothing

But that does not stop them from disparaging other companies who apply engineering and science as best they can to build (actually build) their own products... Makes me kinda sad (oh well)

[Race Car Driver]

Gobble Gobble....

[dknightd]

I'd consider the paradigm S8 a significant upgrade from the B&W 604. Heck I prefered the Studio 100 to the 604 (but not the 703). I haven't actually listened to the S8, but, assume it is better than the 100. Does paradigm still dye their minrange drivers yellow?
I really don't pay much attention to what a driver is made of, or what color it is. What matters is how it sounds. Paradigm makes some fine speakers, I can easily understand why they might be prefered over b&w when compared $to$ for some people. I don't think the S8 was available when I was buying speakers, where does it fit dollar wise into the b&w range? Have you listened to it? How does it sound to you?

There are lots of good speakers out there. And I assume they all sound the best for the money to somebody. I think it will be interesting to see if B&W can make a driver better than the current FST midrange, and if so, will they give up on Kevlar? Maybe. . . Who knows maybe they'll go back to good old doped paper. . . I have no brand or material loyalty, when I next shop for speakers I'll do the same thing I did this time, I'll listen to as many as possible and buy the one that I like the best that fits in my budget. Carbon fibre, paper, kevlar, plastic, metal, wood, I don't care.

[RobP]

:T That is always the best thing to do!

[Fraise]

i dont think its fair to make judgements on kevlar as a material based on the 600 series. I also dont think paradigm are very good speakers. I've head several of them and wasnt impressed. the highs were very harsh.

[chinets]

dknightd,

Here Here!!!! Cheers!! Yup, That is the right way to go, and a great philosophy for buying anything for Music or HT!! :T

Let your ears make that vital decision!! ;x(

[RNKC]

Since we're on conjecture here ...

I would very much like to believe that B&W is limited only by what they think is the best sounding speaker possible. If there's a sonic reason to replce kevlar, I for one think they would do it. This is a company that has no problem building exotic-level speakers (The Nautilus "Snail" for example). So if some composite based on say, carbon nanotubes is invented and it sounds fantastic, don't you think B&W will lay their hands on some and start building speakers?

Until we can actually have a speaker with one driver for every Hertz ranging from 20 - 20,000 we'll always have the compromise of one driver trying to do a lot of work. Because of this, we'll always have to rely on the best material available for the sonic qualities we have all come to know and love from B&W.

Lastly, if kevlar has had it's day, then one must wonder why other kevlar-based items such as bullet-proof vests are still out there. For example, at the high-end of cookwear Teflon is more or less a thing of the past (though Teflon still finds use is other low-end items). Progress marches on and as better technologies are invented, they are (gradually sometimes) adopted by the marketplace. Given the lifetime of kevlar, I would then surmise that something better has yet to come along.