Speakers make a difference, But beware of Snake Oil out there "Opinon"

[WI Rotel]

When I was in the service I lived in Wiesbaden Germany, right next to a town called Mainz Kastel. In that very small post recided the largest high fidelity "outlet" in the world. It was also the largest black market stereo (outlet) in Europe :twisted: All of the worlds major brands had permanent exhibits there of all their new goodies, some of the stuff there was never even offered to the general market. At kastel you could listen to anything from sony to Mc, DBX, Phase linear, you name it, some of the companies are now in oblivion (actually many). We tried the amplifier game many times doing A/B normalized comparisons. 99% of people could never tell amps apart the other 1 percent could get it right 50% of the time. Speakers, however, almost every one could tell apart from the first time up. BTW In Kastel you bought all components at retail! The super speakers of the day Infinity refference Kappas (which sold in the market for 40K in 1987!) could be bought there for 10K. Just a little example how anything close to retail price is actually ripping you a new one. Mirage and NAD were brand new "brands", Allison was expiriencing a brief rebirth. So yes, although I never bought any hyper expensive stereo equipment, I would listen to it almost every weekend! So as far as cultured ear, it doesn't get much better than that. BTW I had the pleasure of blowing the woofers on a couple of JBL's L 150's while listening to don Dorsey's Bachbusters with A DBX professional amp. Its the only time I have actually seen a cone actually rip off a box in my life :cry: but 8) ! So, mon Ami, I have pretty much seen and heard EVERYTHING!

[Dexterace]

I'm not much of an audiophile and I don't have expensive amps. I actually have more of a scientific bent. However, I will say I am more inclined to believe the likes of misterdoggy. I think the real problem is whether the specs (quoted or measured) tell you everything that consititues a difference in listening experience. It's my guess that most audiophiles would argue that it doesn't and I would believe them. I think subtle changes in frequency characteristics are not really captured in specs or translate very well to overall listening experience. Sure, electrically you would try to design an amplifier that had no loss in the passband and low noise figure. But how does the actual ripple that occurs in the passband affect listening experience? What about under dynamic loads? I'm sure there are tons of other things that would affect the experience and not really be captured in a half-page of specs. I guess it's also possible the some differences are only noticed by "experts" and may not matter to most people.

I also find it unlikely, considering the maturity of the industry, that most everything is hype or myth. I understand the arguments about speaker cable and interconnects and I do believe there can be differences due to loss, impedance mismatch and shielding. I don't really think a $6,000 cable is that much better than a $100 cable (but maybe better than a $6 cable). With amplifiers, however, I just don't think people are fooling themselves by spending a lot of money and then biasing themselves because they spent that money (or because they can see the components). I'm sure a few people might, but I doubt the industry and their target customers are like that.

But then again, what do I know? I'm just a person happy with his B&W 700's. :-)

[misterdoggy]

When I was in the service I lived in Wiesbaden Germany, right next to a town called Mainz Kastel. In that very small post recided the largest high fidelity "outlet" in the world. It was also the largest black market stereo (outlet) in Europe :twisted: All of the worlds major brands had permanent exhibits there of all their new goodies, some of the stuff there was never even offered to the general market. At kastel you could listen to anything from sony to Mc, DBX, Phase linear, you name it, some of the companies are now in oblivion (actually many). We tried the amplifier game many times doing A/B normalized comparisons. 99% of people could never tell amps apart the other 1 percent could get it right 50% of the time. Speakers, however, almost every one could tell apart from the first time up. BTW In Kastel you bought all components at retail! The super speakers of the day Infinity refference Kappas (which sold in the market for 40K in 1987!) could be bought there for 10K. Just a little example how anything close to retail price is actually ripping you a new one. Mirage and NAD were brand new "brands", Allison was expiriencing a brief rebirth. So yes, although I never bought any hyper expensive stereo equipment, I would listen to it almost every weekend! So as far as cultured ear, it doesn't get much better than that. BTW I had the pleasure of blowing the woofers on a couple of JBL's L 150's while listening to don Dorsey's Bachbusters with A DBX professional amp. Its the only time I have actually seen a cone actually rip off a box in my life :cry: but 8) ! So, mon Ami, I have pretty much seen and heard EVERYTHING!

WI Rotel,

Thanks for your story. The good old days..... I too had the pre Kappa's RSIIIb and later Kappa 9. I used to drive them with 2 Hafler 500's that I got from a top recording studio in 1987.

I'm not questioning your Savoir Faire actually and definitely did not want to come off like you don't know anything. But if you Got one of these modern Top Amps like, the Krell 400cx, Mark Levinson 400 series, or other top stuff, it really is a whole new world. Some say not better, but I am very happy.

Actually one can be very happy with great sounds at reasonable prices and Rotel is a great solution for this. I mean the steps up from a Rotel top Amplifier and a pair of 804S speakers are smaller steps than from lesser Amps and speakers.

The music is what counts, and at a certain point it can become obsessive trying to find perfection.

I keep saying this is it, this is it. I really am coming to a dead end as I've got what I think is pretty much one of the best setups money can buy and now its time to enjoy it.

I could go a bit further, 800D's, etc but I don't have the space for more.

Time to cool out and listen to the music.

You said you had been in Annecy. I was driving thru here one day and it was so beautiful that we stopped and decided to live here. It is one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen.

[WI Rotel]

WI Rotel,

Thanks for your story. The good old days..... I too had the pre Kappa's RSIIIb and later Kappa 9. I used to drive them with 2 Hafler 500's that I got from a top recording studio in 1987.

I'm not questioning your Savoir Faire actually and definitely did not want to come off like you don't know anything. But if you Got one of these modern Top Amps like, the Krell 400cx, Mark Levinson 400 series, or other top stuff, it really is a whole new world. Some say not better, but I am very happy.

Actually one can be very happy with great sounds at reasonable prices and Rotel is a great solution for this. I mean the steps up from a Rotel top Amplifier and a pair of 804S speakers are smaller steps than from lesser Amps and speakers.


The music is what counts, and at a certain point it can become obsessive trying to find perfection.

I keep saying this is it, this is it. I really am coming to a dead end as I've got what I think is pretty much one of the best setups money can buy and now its time to enjoy it.

I could go a bit further, 800D's, etc but I don't have the space for more.

Time to cool out and listen to the music.

You said you had been in Annecy. I was driving thru here one day and it was so beautiful that we stopped and decided to live here. It is one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen.

Don't take me wrong I'm not poopooing krell either Its a fabulous amp it's just not that good of a value. Of course, that is relative, compared to a Halcro its a steal :B And I must agree the 80's were the heyday of audio, CD's digital DSP etc, many trully audiophile brands in competition. In the 90's it all came crashing down with market consolidation, it was a true loss. One of the best speakers I ever heard were the Allison CD9. I don't think that speaker ever made it to market. While there I did buy a pair of ESS with heil tweeters. The highs were great and sensitivity was an incredible 97db you could drive them with any receiver. I also had a litany of AR's (the real ones including the AR9 and of course I did own a set of 901's (nice for loud parties)! Another brand that took the market by storm was Mirage, they had and still have fantastic imaging and sound! But alas the good times are gone. Luckily for us old farts video is moving electronic sound reproduction ahead. Some of the new audio surround formats are amazing indeed. Although stereo will probably never die the era of its sonic supremacy has truely come to an end. Listening to Diana Krall, Fleetwood Mack, Carmina Burana, Santana or whatever in any of those new surround formats (on a fine stereo of course) is a revelation. They offer what stereo only tried to emulate the sense of being there. Dynamic range, distortion ambience and clarity of these recordings put essentially all stereo recordings to shame since even the very best of stereo cannot duplicate the surround advantage. ;x(

[WI Rotel]

You said you had been in Annecy. I was driving thru here one day and it was so beautiful that we stopped and decided to live here. It is one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen.

Amen to that, I thought the same thing. But there is still too much work to get done (like the accountant in The Petit Prince). Have a mimosa on me while looking over the lake! I hope you found one of the gorgeous local girls to keep you company!

[ZX10 Guy]

One thing lost in the mix when comparing amps is that you really need to gain match the amps you're comparing. If they are not perfectly gain matched, any increase in loudness given the same volume setting can be mis-construed as better sound.

[Race Car Driver]

Ok I will bite, since im unsure.

How would you gain match home amps?
Im familiar with doing that to mobile audio, as the amps have gain control right on them, and you can measure with a multi meter.

Maybe im thinking to hard here.
*dunno*

Thanks for the answer, it will clear this up in my head

[WI Rotel]

Ok I will bite, since im unsure.

How would you gain match home amps?
Im familiar with doing that to mobile audio, as the amps have gain control right on them, and you can measure with a multi meter.

Maybe im thinking to hard here.
*dunno*

Thanks for the answer, it will clear this up in my head

Using an SPL meter is the easiest way. The best comparison listening level is around 75 db. Lower or higher than that and your ear becomes less sensitive to the differences. Of course all other variables must be equal. In germany we used to have a switch box that allowed pretty easy comparisons.

[Race Car Driver]

So your not adjusting the gain per say on the amps (like in mobile audio)
But you actually adjusting the volume (on your reciever, pre, pro etc) so that your listening at the same SPL?

So say vol 4 with one amp might = "N" SPL, and vol 6 with another amp might = "N" SPL?

Just making sure im understanding this right

[WI Rotel]

So your not adjusting the gain per say on the amps (like in mobile audio)
But you actually adjusting the volume (on your reciever, pre, pro etc) so that your listening at the same SPL?

So say vol 4 with one amp might = "N" SPL, and vol 6 with another amp might = "N" SPL?

Just making sure im understanding this right

Yes, that is the easiest way. Man, you need a civic Si :W

[Kal Rubinson]

So your not adjusting the gain per say on the amps (like in mobile audio)
But you actually adjusting the volume (on your reciever, pre, pro etc) so that your listening at the same SPL?)

Same thing. It's just on which end of the interconnects the potentiometers live.

Kal

[AptosJeff]

Level matching?

This may sound crazy, but when listening to amps and sources, I do not find it necessary to match the volume. Yes, they will sound different at different volumes (and I do try to match them), but I find that these components retain their characteristics over a range of volume levels.

This thread has branched out a bit - some of you may want to checkout the thread "Do All Amps Sound the Same?"

Getting back to this thread, I second most of what misterdoggy said, but want to emphasize the importance of the source. Seems the source is at least as important as the playback system and room put together.

[misterdoggy]

Jeff,

Source meaning the CD. HDCD's even more so. If you are able to get real HDCD you will be very impressed between the difference.

Sometimes we don't have the luxury of the best recordings ie: Horowitz playing a performance in the 1940's or something, or Michaelangeli as these recordings and many others were recorded before hi tech.

Bob Marley recordings were not very good, but it doesn't stop me from listening to music I love.

[Andrew M Ward]

hmmmm.....

Excluding Speakers and the room - Which are the most variable factors - and I say most important factors without question (in my mind and in my experience)


When trying to get good sound, everything after or below the room and the speaker, be it Preamplifier, power amplifier or source device... are extremely close or competitive at 75 db. ...

A well made receiver (at 75 db) will give a cost no object system a run for its money if the speakers and the room are the same. So I’m saying just swap the electronics out - keep the speaks and the room the same and the volume low, like 75db and mid-fi gear is very very good!

I believe you separate the pretenders from the contenders at reference volumes, where the amplifier section is being taxed and the preamplifier has to drive the line level signal and the sources ability to execute detail will be more easily revealed, then your money will start to "show up"

But I argue,
A pair of $44500.oo Wilson Maxx II speakers in a good room will sound awesome (amazingly awesome) with a Rotel receiver in two channel mode at 75 db...

Now go to 95 db and Oops, what happened?
What's that noise?

Hey! Where's my Classe' CP-700 preamplifier and my CA-M400 mono-blocks?


:rofl:

Mid-fi gear is actually usually very good and should not be taken lightly, but it has its limitations... but it is out there and successful for a reason, it works great and is an honest deal, in turn some "Hi-end" products are suspicious (at best) and down right fraudulent - at there worst - but usually you get some quality improvements - as noted in this string of posts...
Just my 2 cents

[MJKing]

So following your logic, which I have not seen expressed before (thanks!), my 100 dB/watt/m speaker system should sound very good in my small to mid size room driven by my pair of Rotel 200 watt amps. The amps don't get pushed that hard even at extreme volumes. It would seem that super efficient speakers and lower cost amps are an interesting option if spending significant cash is not of interest or an option.

[RebelMan]

When trying to get good sound, everything after or below the room and the speaker, be it Preamplifier, power amplifier or source device... are extremely close or competitive at 75 db. ...

A well made receiver (at 75 db) will give a cost no object system a run for its money if the speakers and the room are the same. So I’m saying just swap the electronics out - keep the speaks and the room the same and the volume low, like 75db and mid-fi gear is very very good!

I believe you separate the pretenders from the contenders at reference volumes, where the amplifier section is being taxed and the preamplifier has to drive the line level signal and the sources ability to execute detail will be more easily revealed, then your money will start to "show up"

What is very close??? Volume??? Any system be it Lo-Fi, Mid-Fi or Hi-Fi will sound the same if we equate everything to units like dB, but loudness does not equate to quality. What really separates the pretenders from the contenders is how well the frequencies are reproduced and amplified at ANY volume. I can turn up the volume on my car radio to the same levels as my home stereo and hear the same recognizable song play. But no one, not even a layman of our fine hobby, would be confused as to which would sound better.

Sorry Andrew, some systems are just much better at pre-recorded playback than others. I really enjoyed my Rotel system but Classe' has literally opened up the door on what was hidden behind all those musical bits and pieces. I know some people reject the notion of night and day differences and in many cases I would agree, but not this time. This time the differences between the two "systems" (notice I said SYSTEMS, i.e., the electronics frontend and amplifier) were HUGE. You disappoint me Andrew! :cry:

[Andrew M Ward]

So following your logic, which I have not seen expressed before (thanks!), my 100 dB/watt/m speaker system should sound very good in my small to mid size room driven by my pair of Rotel 200 watt amps. The amps don't get pushed that hard even at extreme volumes. It would seem that super efficient speakers and lower cost amps are an interesting option if spending significant cash is not of interest or an option.

Well,
The key is: Are your super high efficiency speakers any good? (Right?)

I guess the point I was making was "Buy great speakers" not mid-fi not pretty good, but GREAT SPEAKERS! - Then treat you room appropriately and effectively - this can be pricy but it's the best investment payback (Period!)

After all that, I would start "worrying about the electronics" but not until then...

[misterdoggy]

Sorry Andrew, some systems are just much better at pre-recorded playback than others. I really enjoyed my Rotel system but Classe' has literally opened up the door on what was hidden behind all those musical bits and pieces. I know some people reject the notion of night and day differences and in many cases I would agree, but not this time. This time the differences between the two "systems" (notice I said SYSTEMS, i.e., the electronics frontend and amplifier) were HUGE. You disappoint me Andrew! :cry:

RebelMan,

You better believe it. People keep confusing power with quality.

Its the same story over and over again. The group that says All SS amplifiers sound the same.

Why don't I just send over my $12K Levinson and switch it for a 200 watt Rotel.

I can just do the room, and save myself $11k.

[Andrew M Ward]

Gosh...
I didn't realize this was a contest!

I thought we were trying to help people understand what was important in our opinions and what made the biggest difference as far as obvious "pay back" … I just happen to think (in my experience in the industry) that your average living room is usually a pretty crappy place to listen to music, and I believe it’s usually a bigger problem than what amp you have or what CD player your using.

If you've ever been to a high-end recording studio (The place where they record the discs we listen to) they feel fairly confident about how important the room is... in fact it's all they talk about …

However it is clearly the most misunderstood factor (as this string has made obvious) in fact it’s downright volatile.

………………………………………………………………………………………………

After all that’s been said, I have great electronics – I also have mid-fi electronics – I love them all (like children) and find it difficult to part with any gear… I’ve got Mark Levinson – Linn – Classe’ – Rotel – B&W – You name it, my collection of gear is ridiculous… so it’s not like I don’t have any experience with $15,000.oo amplifiers or $8,000.oo CD players

[Indytown]

Gosh...
I didn't realize this was a contest!

I thought we were trying to help people understand what was important in our opinions and what made the biggest difference as far as obvious "pay back" … I just happen to think (in my experience in the industry) that your average living room is usually a pretty crappy place to listen to music, and I believe it’s usually a bigger problem than what amp you have or what CD player your using.

If you've ever been to a high-end recording studio (The place where they record the discs we listen to) they feel fairly confident about how important the room is... in fact it's all they talk about …

However it is clearly the most misunderstood factor (as this string has made obvious) in fact it’s downright volatile.

………………………………………………………………………………………………

After all that’s been said, I have great electronics – I also have mid-fi electronics – I love them all (like children) and find it difficult to part with any gear… I’ve got Mark Levinson – Linn – Classe’ – Rotel – B&W – You name it, my collection of gear is ridiculous… so it’s not like I don’t have any experience with $15,000.oo amplifiers or $8,000.oo CD players

Not all living rooms are crappy, somewhat crappy as the volume gets lounder.

[stewfoo]

Not all living rooms are crappy, somewhat crappy as the volume gets lounder.

mine sucks

[caleb]

I agree - even the best of equipment won't give it's best in a room that has not been treated in some way.

My TAG Av32DP has a room equalisation circuit (TMREQ), which has made a huge difference in taming the boominess in the low frequencies, but I bet I can do better with some room treatments.

Even putting in some velvet drapes on the walls made a big improvement.

[misterdoggy]

My living room isn't ideal, but its my "living" room. The room where I spend most of the time, the room where my family spends most of the time watching HT movies, satellite TV and music.

So the living room is the place where it happens.

I've got a good friend that has a dedicated HT in his cellar, but only go down once a month to watch a new movie (they've gone thru most of their collection several times) and its like the system has been banned to Siberia.

No the living room works just fine, even if its not ideal. I mean we do want to enjoy ourselves easily don't we.

[Karma]

HI All,
This has turned into a very interesting thread. I would like to open up this point. NO ONE COMPONENT, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE ROOM, IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OTHER. A great sound system is a synergy of all the components. Each must be selected not only for its intrinsic qualities but its ability to support the whole presentation.

The presentation is a personal choice. There is no "best". There is only our taste that must be satisfied.

I do think that very broad experience is necessary to create a quality baseline for our choices. It's clear to me that many folks have not heard a truly great system. If they had they would not be touting, for example, Rotel, as the end all of amplifiers. I'm only using Rotel as an example known to many on this site. I have nothing against Rotel or others in its price/performance range. But equipment at that level of performance is only the tip of the iceberg. Such equipment is a fine stepping stone but certainly not the end of the journey.

Truly great systems do things that are almost beyond imagination and almost beyond description. There are subtle internals in a sound field that can be reproduced but rarely are. They are the things that bring reproduced sound closer to reality. They allow our minds to overcome our disbelief and allow us to immerse ourselves in the sound and music and forget that we are just in our listening room. These are the reasons why some (me) insist that analog audio is better than digital at the extreme edge of performance though the gap is closing.

We should always remember that the benchmark is live music. There are no other references. Yet, I don't see live music mentioned very much on this site. J. Gordon Holt, founder of Stereophile, and the best ears I have ever been around, constantly referenced live music in his reviews. He was right but I fear this standard is going out of style.

This thread has concentrated on what I would term first and second order issues. It's getting the basics right. But in the next valley is where truly great sound resides. One must pass over the mountain to achieve the next level. It is expensive, requires experience, demands attention to detail, and develops exquisite taste, not to mention great ears. I call it the Art of System Building, Art being the operative term.

It is the next valley that ignites my interests.

Sparky

[Andrew M Ward]

My living room isn't ideal, but its my "living" room. The room where I spend most of the time, the room where my family spends most of the time watching HT movies, satellite TV and music.

So the living room is the place where it happens.

I've got a good friend that has a dedicated HT in his cellar, but only go down once a month to watch a new movie (they've gone thru most of their collection several times) and its like the system has been banned to Siberia.

No the living room works just fine, even if its not ideal. I mean we do want to enjoy ourselves easily don't we.

Thus your gear will always sound like "Hi-end gear in a living room" which is major compromise (In my opinion) which is what we've been discussing; we all choose our compromises...

I am fortunate enough that my music room (or should I say both of my music rooms) are easily accessible and used every day that I'm home 8)

(I'm just not home enough)

[caleb]

Karma,

You are so right, the ONLY reference can be live music.

Now think of hearing your favourite band or orchestra at a venue that is good for sound and then in a venue that is crap for sound.

Same band - same music - different sound.

Will it sound the same - I think not!

So it is with the room that your kit is in.

[sikoniko]

Karma,

You are so right, the ONLY reference can be live music.

Now think of hearing your favourite band or orchestra at a venue that is good for sound and then in a venue that is crap for sound.

Same band - same music - different sound.

Will it sound the same - I think not!

So it is with the room that your kit is in.

I've got one! How about same room, same band, same equipment, but a different person running the mixing board?

[caleb]

I've got one! How about same room, same band, same equipment, but a different person running the mixing board?

Hmmmm .... you've got a good point there!

[misterdoggy]

Recorded Music is the Best (or just you in the room with a guitar and the musicians)

Good points all. Live Music.

However..... Live music is Not as good as recorded Music in Reality. And this is why.

Live music in a club or venue or stadium has lots of problems, acoustics, backround noise, the size of the stage or club and its broadcast through a mixing board to send the best sound possible to the audience.

In a large stage and I was on stage at a Rolling Stones Concert in San Francisco, the Singers can hardly hear themselves. Only the mixing board really gets the picture. The Beatles said they couldn't hear themselves at any of their concerts over the screams, and finally decided on being recording artists. Now its MTV.

I had the privilege to be in the Beatles recording Studio when they were recording the White Album.

You have all your acoustics separated with treatments, so there is no feedback, then a completely separate compartment to hear the music recorded over speakers in a confined very small space with top qulaity speakers.

There are times when the same musician plays different instruments on the same recording. Or sings backup to himself on the same recording. They replay the record and remember in a recording studio all musicians HAVE to wear head phones to hear themselves in the mix. So a musician can play twice on a recording by listening to the mix and adding a track with him either singing along or playing along.

The point being that this type of recording is meant to be heard as a record/cd/DVD and the best place to hear it is on your stereo, or in the studio, in the "listening room"

[fauzigarib]

Great thread!!

Misterdoggy!

What an amazing thread... I love the conviction you display by saying the things that everyone is thinking, but no one has the gall to say. I have really found myself justifying to myself and my ears the amount of difference i hear when I lay down a couple grand on some equipment. So to be able to come out and post this thread... Hats off!

A couple specific points I had: I think that Power Conditioners are not snake oil in the least. My personal experience has been unbelievable... but that's only because the power in our area (Karachi, Pakistan) is just horrific. I have had pride oozing down my shorts about how great my Klipschorn / McIntosh system was... until I plugged in a borrowed PS Audio PowerStation into the link. It was just a tremendous improvement.... But I can see that if you already have a gorgeous sine wave coming out of the wall, no amount of money you spend will improve upon it.

The other thing is that it seemed that Andrew got a little ripped on when he brought up the room factor into the sound. Personally, (and this is just a personal opinion), I think that perhaps as high as 80% of people out there have very little room correction implemented into their systems. For whatever reason: They don't know about it, don't want to bother, etc. That's not the point: The point is that the room plays a HUGE role in the sound that reaches your ear. Whether one knows that they're experiencing standing waves, skewed reflections... It will all contribute to the pleasure or lack thereof of the experience.

Personally, I would rank speakers, amplification and room in the top 3... but that's me.

However, on a more general note, I think this thread of yours has really started to make a commentary on the state of the industry and its customers in general. It's just simply amazing how nowadays as opposed to say 15 years ago, how HUGE of a role marketing plays in this field. Case in point: Bose. Need I say more? :M

The market has expanded like never before in the history of audio. There are companies with practically 0 R&D budgets that are spending as much on advertising and promotion as they are on material purchases!

And with this expanded market, where each supplier is getting a piece of the pie, you are bound to run into snake oil vendors... it's just the laws of economics.

I think an unmentioned aspect of a company and their products that I look for that can not be hidden by any amount of marketing is the company's history. Any company that has sustained for 30 years, well... either they're really taken the public for a ride, or they actually know what they're talking about.

Sorry for the long post... just my 2 cents...

Great thread, and good job of keeping people's tempers in check!

Fauzi

[misterdoggy]

Fauzi,

Thanks for the flowers from Pakistan !!

Because of your input I thought it necessary to modify my original statements to read "

....NOTE I have modified this after the fact. This was my experience, but it could be the sine wave in my electricity does not need conditioning and that it could be all the difference if you live in an area with dirty electricity. (thanks Fauzi !)......."

I've heard this from several reports, and as I have always said, I respect everyone's opinion who gives one that's firsthand. Although I did not experience it, I respect your judgement and believe that you did.

[sikoniko]

Good points all. Live Music.

In a large stage and I was on stage at a Rolling Stones Concert in San Francisco, the Singers can hardly hear themselves. Only the mixing board really gets the picture. The Beatles said they couldn't hear themselves at any of their concerts over the screams, and finally decided on being recording artists. Now its MTV.

"that was then, this is now"... today bands have a seperate board and engineer for monitors and most artists have ear monitors as well.

I had the privilege to be in the Beatles recording Studio when they were recording the White Album.

Id be interested in hearing stories! John is my all time favorite singer/songwriter. did you get to talk to them much? I heard john was a real jerk to most people... ok, i am star struck when it comes to the most influential band in the world that managed to cross all borders, races and change music as we know it. just my opinion...

[misterdoggy]

"that was then, this is now"... today bands have a seperate board and engineer for monitors and most artists have ear monitors as well.



Id be interested in hearing stories! John is my all time favorite singer/songwriter. did you get to talk to them much? I heard john was a real jerk to most people... ok, i am star struck when it comes to the most influential band in the world that managed to cross all borders, races and change music as we know it. just my opinion...

They still have listening rooms today. And a Good Stereo could be like your own listening room

I've edited this a little, about things that will be private.

[Briz vegas]

Interesting discussion. Some of the best sounding recordings are done live (everyone playing together) in my opinion. In fact I don't think there is any other way of doing a good classical recording. A musician (classical guitar) I know who has recorded told me that they don't patch things together the way they do for pop or rock. Makes sense really, although I am sure that it can be done technically, you must loose some of the spontaneity and cohesion in the music by recording each instrument separately. We want to hear the instrument and the room responding to the sound of the instrument, what about the interaction of those sounds with the other instruments that you get with a live performance? It all comes down to preference as I know some people who think all live pop/rock recordings are bad news.

[misterdoggy]

Having been at a lot of live recordings, I can say that there is spontananeous things (chemistry) going on, both in the music and with each other and with the people working on the recording and not the larger audience. There are still one of a kind things happening, just different.

Many Classical Musicians like Horowitz who have recorded Piano pieces in his home have had quality recordings, better than you could get in a music hall.

Live recordings are great too, dont get me wrong.

Its just in the studio, all the elements for laying down tracks are ideal for playback.

[Russ L]

I had the privilege to be in the Beatles recording Studio when they were recording the White Album.

:E ;x( ;x( ;x( Thats truly Beatlesque! Witnessing recording history...I'm amazed! You must still be on a high from the experience. -Russ

[misterdoggy]

:E ;x( ;x( ;x( Thats truly Beatlesque! Witnessing recording history...I'm amazed! You must still be on a high from the experience. -Russ

I feel like Forrest Gump, I was just in the right place at the right time. Nothing to brag about.

[DM3000 Owner]

Misterdoggy,

This is a great thread. Nice of you to share your experience.

I am looking for a digital interconnect for my Transport to DAC. I see that the DH Labs D75 gets great reviews in its price range. It is $75 and said to be in teh same league as connects in teh $250 or so range.

I see that you fell in love with a certain digital cable. What do you reccommend?

Thanks,

Chris

[stewfoo]

I would talk to Lex about his digital coax. They truly are phenomenal pieces of work that show great craftsmanship.
Stew

[misterdoggy]

Misterdoggy,

This is a great thread. Nice of you to share your experience.

I am looking for a digital interconnect for my Transport to DAC. I see that the DH Labs D75 gets great reviews in its price range. It is $75 and said to be in teh same league as connects in teh $250 or so range.

I see that you fell in love with a certain digital cable. What do you reccommend?

Thanks,

Chris

Chris,

Best thing to do is try out different ones to see "if" there is a difference, and then "if" it is noticeable, then chose which one.

I use Nordost Silver Shadow in 110 OHM , but they are $400-$500 for 1m dedicated dual coaxial 110 Ohm AES / EBU (XLR).

I have heard good things about Lex's Cat Cables and it sounds like they might be the perfect solution for your price range.

[Andrew M Ward]

Good points all. Live Music.

However..... Live music is Not as good as recorded Music in Reality. And this is why.

Live music in a club or venue or stadium has lots of problems, acoustics, backround noise, the size of the stage or club and its broadcast through a mixing board to send the best sound possible to the audience.

In a large stage and I was on stage at a Rolling Stones Concert in San Francisco, the Singers can hardly hear themselves. Only the mixing board really gets the picture. The Beatles said they couldn't hear themselves at any of their concerts over the screams, and finally decided on being recording artists. Now its MTV.

I had the privilege to be in the Beatles recording Studio when they were recording the White Album.

You have all your acoustics separated with treatments, so there is no feedback, then a completely separate compartment to hear the music recorded over speakers in a confined very small space with top qulaity speakers.

There are times when the same musician plays different instruments on the same recording. Or sings backup to himself on the same recording. They replay the record and remember in a recording studio all musicians HAVE to wear head phones to hear themselves in the mix. So a musician can play twice on a recording by listening to the mix and adding a track with him either singing along or playing along.

The point being that this type of recording is meant to be heard as a record/cd/DVD and the best place to hear it is on your stereo, or in the studio, in the "listening room"

In general this argument is Ridiculous...
True; recordings can be Mastered and Engineered in the studio and mixed down to whatever ‘enth degree one so chooses, for better or worse...

But to say recordings are better than live music... Please :roll:

"I was on stage with the rolling stones" and "in Abby road studios during the white album" equates to wonderful experiences but should not be regarded as the playing card allowing one to dismiss "live music" as secondary to studio music...

Here's one for you: I've worked in recording studio's - I've recorded in studio's and I've played live (many many times) and all forms have their advantages. (it’s not so simple as better or worse)

Some live venues are acoustically superior to your average living room

And how about performance:
I saw King Crimson in 1983 (Robert Fripp-Tony Levin-Adrian Belew-Bill Bruford) live and by a suggestion from a drunk girl on stage they covered "I'm Down" (Beatles version) and Fripp played a 2 minute guitar solo and Adrian Belew switched places with Bill Bruford and had a short (and brilliant) drum solo, it was timeless and masterful...

I have only about 100 example of such accidental brilliance and sheer artistic joy at live shows

And what about the fact that most Jazz musicians (as a general rule) feel that their live work is "always" better than anything they do in the studio, including such masters as Stan Getz - Keith Jarrett - Bill Evans - Charles Mingus - Miles Davis (all) regarded the studio as a necessary EVIL and a distant second to playing live... and that goes not just for performance but also for sound quality... Hmmmm...

Perhaps Yanni is better on CD, but I can think of so many examples of bands that are just so amazing live... such as the Austin Texas band "Spoon" and the New Orleans band "Galactic" and the incomparable NYC "they might be Giants" all fabulous live bands that always do something amazing and spontaneous live...

Or how about "Gov't Mule" ... when they play live you have no idea what might happen next, the list of random "guest artist" is staggering, unbelievable guest musicians just walk on and do amazing (random) live stuff...

Only live...

(Just my 2 cents)

Saying that "hyper engineered" studio music is superior to live music is dangerous in my opinion, it's like saying that meeting people on the internet is better than going out and actually meeting people!!!

Final Note: What about a music recital?
To this day I remember watching my older sister at her piano recital, it will always be apart of who I am, it was profound. A once in a lifetime moment not ever to be repeated, not recorded not captured in anyway, but simply perfectly stored in my childhood memory (as it should be) simply perfect

Don't take this essay of mine too seriously, but we both can't be wrong, so I must be right!
8)

[sikoniko]

... and the incomparable NYC "they might be Giants" all fabulous live bands that always do something amazing and spontaneous live...
8)

"purple toupee, the kind I never had before"

sorry, couldn't resist.. im "going back to cow town".

one of my favorite albums... aerosmith...live bootleg. I have always liked it when artists improv... it is severly lacking in todays music.. except RHCP and a few others.

[misterdoggy]

Andrew,

I wasn't using my experience as a reference to that I would be an expert.

As always I only give my opinion of which I am allowed.

I have seen many live performances where lots of magic happens, Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf, Butterfield Blues band, Bob Marley and many more in very small clubs in New York and really what could compare with the smoke filled atmosphere watching the greats perform in a club like Steve Pauls "The Scene".

Or my son who is studying to be a concert Pianist. Just to be in the room while he is practicing can bring tears to your eyes.

This isn't what I was saying.

What I was saying was many records are created and performed in the studio, and if you worked a studio you know there are lots of rooms, or different corners, with separation, and remix, overmixing, adding tracks and everyone listening through their headphones to see how it all comes together so they fit in perfectly.

THIS recording is better listened to thru speakers in the mixed portion or mixing room, than the way it would sound if you were standing there with the musicians.

It is MADE to be heard that way. This is what I was saying.