Speakers make a difference, But beware of Snake Oil out there "Opinon"

[misterdoggy]

Well time has gone by and its been about a year and I've spent probably close to $100,000 buying top quality Hifi and HT material and its starting to become clear what things make a difference, what things appear to be snake oil.

I thought I would share my view's

1. Speakers make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost. 700's to 802D's definitely the big payoff !! Bigtime difference

2. Amplifiers make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost, but at the top there is hardly a difference, just slight enough to say I prefer this sound to another.

3. Preamplifiers make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost. ditto to the Amplifier

4. Processors make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost although with Films its less apparent than Preamlifiers with music.

5. DAC's make a difference. but the difference's are subtle

6. Interconnects make a difference. You can hear the difference between a low quality and a high quality cable, but I have not been able to hear ANY difference between 2 different high quality cables Buy a good quality, but after there's does not seem to be a difference between good quality and great quality Snake Oil...

7. Speaker Cable This is an area where I have not been able to hear as much a difference between cables. I actually had heavy guage "x" brand and $1000 "y" well known brand and although there was some difference in sound I could not say that one was better only different.

8. Line Conditioners Snake Oil personified. No difference what so ever. Hype Hype. Sorry...... Tried $1000 conditioners nothing NOTE I have modified this after the fact. This was my experience, but it could be the sine wave in my electricity does not need conditioning and that it could be all the difference if you live in an area with dirty electricity. (thanks Fauzi !)

9. Power Cords Snake Oil, no difference. One guy offered me $1000 power cords and there was no difference between that one and the $75 brand "X". and none between brand "X" and $6.00 cord made in china.

LATER EDIT I was using a good power cord, when a distributor for one of the top brands send me a $2500 power cable to try out. He offered it to me for $400 . So I compared it playing the same piece over and over again in MONO with the $250 power cord in the right amp and the $2500 power cord in the left Amp. I have to admit with eyes closed there was an ever so slight difference for the better with the more expensive cable. But $2250 more definitely not. It was hard to say no, due more to the 'value', than the improvement, so I bought it for $400.
This could be that the electricity in my area or home is pretty clean and not true for everyone.

10. Digital Cables make a difference. You can hear the difference between a low quality and a high quality cable, but I have not been able to hear ANY difference between 2 different high quality cables Buy a good quality, but after there's does not seem to be a difference between good quality and great quality Snake Oil..

11. Upscalers Big difference between the picture before and after, but probably no difference between one brand and the next or so slight you can only measure with special color templates, and tests that reveal differences. Your eyes really don't see it. 1080p is great 1080i is great but to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p is pretty hard. Yes there is a difference between 476i and 720p thats for sure, but probaly no difference between a unit thats $700 and $6000.

12. CD/DVD players make a difference. You can hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost although with Films its less subtle than with music.

Anyhow, these opinions are based on my personal experience and do not represent an absolute truth for anyone else but me. I have bought everything right up to the top materials and Brands, top of the line and feel if something would reveal itself, it would with these components.

The biggest single difference is the source material. A good CD/DVD recorded well will make a big difference

[Briz vegas]

Dang! I was hoping I could skimp on something. Now it looks like, based on your experience, that I may need new everything (components) to get the best out of my new speakers.

regarding CD players, you say that films improve more with better gear than music ie the opposite to what you say for preamps(music) vs processors (movies) where you say music benefits more?

ie I might be better off getting a dedicated pre-amp or HQ integrated (currently using receiver with power amp) than a dedicated CD player (currently using a NAD DVD player) to improve my music significantly.

I have been wavering between the two (I have lots of time to consider) and was currently favouring a good CD player to improve music the most. Like the secrets of good cooking "its all in the sauce.....er ......source"

[misterdoggy]

Dang! I was hoping I could skimp on something. Now it looks like, based on your experience, that I may need new everything (components) to get the best out of my new speakers.

regarding CD players, you say that films improve more with better gear than music ie the opposite to what you say for preamps(music) vs processors (movies) where you say music benefits more?

ie I might be better off getting a dedicated pre-amp or HQ integrated (currently using receiver with power amp) than a dedicated CD player (currently using a NAD DVD player) to improve my music significantly.

I have been wavering between the two (I have lots of time to consider) and was currently favouring a good CD player to improve music the most. Like the secrets of good cooking "its all in the sauce.....er ......source"

Actually let me state better in detail that when I said DVD I meant only DVD with relation to DVD Films. I do not listen to DVD music 5.1. I only listen to Stereo Music 2.0 and my comments only are about DVD in relation to movies.

Everything from my experience is better "dedicated" rather than incorporated. Ie: for music a preamp is better than a processor or integrated Amp, a cd player is better than a DVD/CD player etc.

I have one of the best combo DVD/CD players out there, an Ayre D-1XE which goes for $10k+ with all the frills, but CD's still sound better on a 390S Mark Levinson dedicated CD HDCD player.

Or 2 channel music sounds better thru a dedicated preamp like the Mark Levinson 326S than a top of the line Processor like the Lexicon 12B.

I went thru lots of changes, changing all the time, but its slowed because a pattern has revealed itself, and any changes now would just be going in circles and throwing money away for no gains. ;x(

[Hoffi]

Misterdoggy!

I totally agree with you. I made the same experience.You can throw tons of money into some "tuning" equipment with only small or no benefit. Save your money guys and buy the best dedicated equipment you can affort!
Priority list (just my opinion):
1. Speakers
2. Amp
3. Preamp
4. Source (CD,DVD etc)
5. HT Processor

So I´m waiting for you to come along with some B&W 800D´s next and use your 802D´s for rears :W

Hoffi

[Karma]

HI doggy,
Great summary. Thanks. You have gained a lifetime of experience in just a year. Generally, I agree with your findings. May I add, respecfully, that you have now exited the first phase and are now entering the second, more difficult phase. Namely, understanding and developing your personal taste in sound.

As I'm sure you realize by now that at the very high end of the spectrum (no pun!) you get great sound but there are still differences to be acknowledged. Let's call this the style, or theme, of your system. These differences will feed two results. First, the overall sound will be affected by the specific mix of the components; the one's that make a difference. I'm speaking of the synergy of the components. Next, one comes to the point where one must ask if the sonic style or theme is ultimately what you desire. This is where the art of system building becomes the dominant factor. At this point, spec sheets are meaningless. It's your ears and taste that count.

Not mentioned in your post is the room. I realize that the room was not the point of your summary. I also know you are fully aware of the acoustic implications of the room. But I must bring it up because the art of system building is dominated by the little things that turn out to be big things. The room is certainly one of those.

I bring up the room because it is so often ignored. Just take moment and look through the gallery of system photographs on this site. Time and time again one sees a huge investment in equipment that live in obviously acoustically terrible rooms. So this tangent is aimed at those who read this post and come away with the impression that a system can be great without a carefully considered listening room. It simply is not true.

Whew, this is as hard to write about as it is to judge. My vocabulary fails me. Again, thanks for your great post.

Sparky

[misterdoggy]

Karma,

You are abslutely right about getting there, then sculpturing to your own tastes. One could spend $100k and discover they prefer the Krell sound over the Goldmund or Halcro sound.

Like prefering the hum of a Ferrari over the pure power of the Viper. Like Stereos the analogy is any Car can get you from A to B, but if one had the means, he might chose a Ferrari because it suits his tastes more.

I actually have been in HiFi since the late 60's and have owned Mcintosh for many years and many other top brands. Finally came down to either the Krell or Mark Levinson sound and preferred Mark Levinson in the end.

My one fish, an Indonesian Arawana 2 feet long, died a few weeks ago, and I took the opportunity to slide my whole system around from Caddy corner to straight across the wall where the Aquarium was, so the positioning is "almost" optimal for my room acoustics.

Like someone said, its like ingredients in a soup, you need to make the right blend everywhere, room, cables, components that go well together for the soup to taste good. This is important for newbie's to understand. No one component can make a system. Its the blend.

My point was where to invest, and not to invest IMHO.

This last week I had read that Nordost Heimdalls were much more musical than the Nordost Red Dawns, the model just under which I own. Hmmmm I thought, new model (mine were last years) and people were saying much more musical AHA !!

So I ordered 2 sets of XLR intrconnects and a pair of biwire Speaker cable for just the Stereo portion of the system for $2k+ for a couple of wires. NO DIFFERENCE. It was then that it struck me, about the hype, Snake Oil and throwing away money.

[Ade]

So I ordered 2 sets of XLR intrconnects and a pair of biwire Speaker cable for just the Stereo portion of the system for $2k+ for a couple of wires. NO DIFFERENCE. It was then that it struck me, about the hype, Snake Oil and throwing away money.

I find it slightly amusing that you're complaining about snake oil for cables and yet you continue to preach other snake oil fallacies. Just my opinion of course.

Nice place to live btw - I used to take a trip to Annecy with friends on the occasional weekend when I lived in the Geneva and Pay de Gex area. I was always amazed how the signing on the major French highways could be so good (the best I've seen in any country) and yet the signing within towns could be so awful (some of the worse I've seen).

Not that any of this has anything to do with B&W…

[misterdoggy]

I find it slightly amusing that you're complaining about snake oil for cables and yet you continue to preach other snake oil fallacies. Just my opinion of course.

Nice place to live btw - I used to take a trip to Annecy with friends on the occasional weekend when I lived in the Geneva and Pay de Gex area. I was always amazed how the signing on the major French highways could be so good (the best I've seen in any country) and yet the signing within towns could be so awful (some of the worse I've seen).

Not that any of this has anything to do with B&W…

Which other fallacies. I might be in agreement "in a fashion"

I mean I had a $39.95 Digital Cable and a quality digital cable and there was no question there was a difference, but as my friends at B&W always say to me, its not about coloration or changing the sound, its about "loss" or not losing original sound.

I could hear the difference clearly so for this one I have to accept whats in front of me. I only spoke of things I really could clearly hear or saw.

My main point was in the cable domain that good quality is enough and the difference between good and very very expensive is IMHO hype.

I live right on the Lake. Very nice lifestyle in France.

[Ade]

Which other fallacies. I might be in agreement "in a fashion"

Uh, well I thought you'd read the "Do amplifiers sound the same" thread for one.

I mean I had a $39.95 Digital Cable and a quality digital cable and there was no question there was a difference, but as my friends at B&W always say to me, its not about coloration or changing the sound, its about "loss" or not losing original sound.

I'm one of these computer guys so I know a little about the digital domain. Tell me, how do you think that one digital cable can sound different from another?
Here's a quote from audioholics that I happen to agree with, "it would take truly monumental incompetence to design any digital interconnect that was incapable of passing a digital signal without corruption."
I think that's about all I'll say about cables though - the site owners frown on too many cable criticisms.

I could go on and tell you that blind tests on DAC's have indicated no audible differences as is the case with CD players, preamplifiers, etc etc. Actually your post covered most of the industry and there’s enough material to discuss there to keep a thread going indefinitely.

I live right on the Lake. Very nice lifestyle in France.

Yes, the French lifestyle is rather laid back, relaxed and usually involves long lunch breaks and copious amounts of alcohol if I remember correctly. :B

[misterdoggy]

I hear you... digital is just X's and O's and I'm a webmaster and do all the digital foto work (all formats) on the website and fully understand information is written and sent and that should be it.

I knew you would go to the digital cable and that's why I mentioned the $39.95 Cable and Brand "X". To my dismay the Brand "X" didn't sound a little better, but a lot better.

This is one of those things I can't seem to grasp, but there you have it. On paper it shouldn't but in reality it did and does. why I don't know?

[Karma]

HI doggie and Ade,
Well, I make my living by designing digital commnication equipment and have spent many years operating my own business repairing, maintaining, and baby sitting high end audio equipment. I am a long term (about 40 years) audiophile. So much for credentials. The only one that really counts are our ears.

I can tell you for sure that there are vast differences in digital cable implementations. Note that I used the word implementation and not solid high frequency theory. It's the nature of high speed digital cables that rise times, impedance matching, and bandwidth are crucial to the theoretical performance of the cable. But is the best theoretical signal shape required in digital audio?

With the relatively low bit rates and benign niose environment represented by digital audio, the theory can be manipulated because ultimate bandwidth and signal fidelity is not required. For example, a cable can be under compensated which results in a rather horrible looking square wave when viewed on a scope. Yet this sub-optimal signal has some important characteristics that are good for digital audio data recovery. Its rise times can be faster than the optimal cable can provide. This allows the signal recovery circuits to reduce bit to bit jitter to a minimum.

John Atkinson, editor of Stereophile, has run long tern tests and has correlated digital sound with jitter produced by signal recovery. The sub-optimal cable, if it is properly defined can aid the reduction of jitter. I have personally used this trick to reduce clock jitter without incurring bit errors.

This poses problems for EE's. Rather than digital cables conforming to theory that can be readily understood, digital cable designers become wire artists. And some are better at this game than others. Does this justify the huge differences in digital cable costs? I don't know. But it does take it out of the snake oil category in some cases.

Sparky

[Race Car Driver]

I could go on and tell you that blind tests on DAC's have indicated no audible differences as is the case with CD players, preamplifiers, etc etc.

So what actually does make an audible difference?
In a blind test of course,...... we couldnt have it any other way. :roll:

[Briz vegas]

Ade

I would have to disagree with you if you are saying all CD players sound the same. I still recall back in the mid 90s when my '86 model Sony CD player died. At the time I was convinced that all CD players should sound identical, but did a listening test at the recommendation of the salesguy who left me alone with 3 different players. Each player had quite a distinct sound which surprised me. I have been dissappointed at the lack of difference on other occasions.

More recently I had a guy trying to sell me a tricked up Sony. He was using an unfamiliar setup so I asked him to add the same model DVD player as my one at home so I could compare. Despite very different speakers I instantly recognised the sonic signature of the DVD player, which again I did not expect.

When I home demo for my next CD player purchase I will ask a friend to run a blind AB test for me. I will be surprised if the differences I have heard with my most recent auditions evaporates, but I should probably hand back my science degree if I was not prepared to test the hypothesis. (PS this may not be for a while - no cash for CD players until next year)

Just don't get started on the enhanced greenhouse effect/global warming as possible "snake oil". Relatively I don't think B&W makes much of a contribution so it would be way way off topic.

[D-bucket]

misterdoggy, I find your observational summary reflecting on your experiences with the relative value upgrading different a/v system components very interesting. Your perspectives seems to resonate closely with my experiences also, thanks for sharing. :T

I'm wondering if someone had expressed to me those same exact 12 viewpoints many years ago when I was just starting my a/v journey, would I have been even able to fully recognize the merits back then without having had the benefit of the many subsequent upgrade experiences (both good & bad) that allows me to now understand and appreciate where you are coming from. For instance, now knowing both the longevity, influence & importance of speakers in the audio chain, if I had to do it over I would make every effort I could to get the best speakers I could earlier even if it meant going over budget and/or postponding other components.

[misterdoggy]

D-Bucket

Speakers are where it all comes out. Where we actually hear what we've done with our mixing blending components and for the artists mixing and blending their music.

Speakers for me are THE most important component of a system. Everything else can work towards getting better, but always judging thru the speakers.

My recommendation is to get the very best speakers you can and fine tune everything else using them as the guide. After all if you had great equipment and lesser speakers how could you tell anything ?

[Ade]

I hear you... digital is just X's and O's and I'm a webmaster and do all the digital foto work (all formats) on the website and fully understand information is written and sent and that should be it.

I knew you would go to the digital cable and that's why I mentioned the $39.95 Cable and Brand "X". To my dismay the Brand "X" didn't sound a little better, but a lot better.

This is one of those things I can't seem to grasp, but there you have it. On paper it shouldn't but in reality it did and does. why I don't know?

That's the point really, it shouldn't, it doesn't, but to you and to others it does right? So why is that? It's not at all possible that your hearing is being manipulated by your inherent bias is it? Maybe that's why these differences vanish during blind tests....

It's the point that I've tried to make over and over now... People. Cannot. Trust. Their. Ears. Under. Sighted. Conditions. It's a very simple concept and it's why double blind trials are used throughout the scientific community when they need to be absolutely sure that personal bias (conscious and subconscious) doesn't skew results.

So every single time someone says, "it sounds different because I hear that it does" it means next to nothing when they are trying to prove a point.

[Ade]

So what actually does make an audible difference?
In a blind test of course,...... we couldnt have it any other way. :roll:

Well, I've stated this in another thread but here it is again in expanded format;

95-99% of what you hear: Speakers, room, source recording quality. How much of a contribution each makes to the mix will vary.

Solid state electronics: Ignoring sound processors/equalizers etc which are designed to manipulate and change sound, the other bits and pieces will mainly sound the same or very similar when used within their stated limits; even if there are miniscule measurable differences as our ears aren't sensitive enough to hear them.

Yes, there are reasons to buy different types/more expensive kit – feature set, quality, larger tolerances and upper limits, brand name kudos and design.

[misterdoggy]

D-Bucket

Speakers are where it all comes out. Where we actually hear what we've done with our mixing blending components and for the artists mixing and blending their music.

Speakers for me are THE most important component of a system. Everything else can work towards getting better, but always judging thru the speakers.

My recommendation is to get the very best speakers you can and fine tune everything else using them as the guide. After all if you had great equipment and lesser speakers how could you tell anything ?

So every single time someone says, "it sounds different because I hear that it does" it means next to nothing when they are trying to prove a point.

Ade,

I hear what you are saying. I had no axe to grind and was not searching for anything when I heard what I heard. Remember, I have over $2000 in Power cords and I have listed them as hype.

I have over $2000 in Line conditioners and think its a hype.

If anyone wanted to believe these things changed something, I have $4k of my hard earned cash not wanting to say I threw it away.

by the way, my A/B comparison was between a inexpensive $39.95 Rca/Rca 75 Ohm Digital versus a $600 Aes/Ebu (xlr's) 110 Ohm top quality digital cable running 1m. In this case I was very happy with the result.

Sorry to say it was no small difference between the 2 where I said, "Oh Yeah...... that does sound a little better" It was "Wow I gotta get throw that cable in the Garbage and change it quick as I can't listen to that another second in comparison"

Remember what the B&W Tech guys always say. Its about "limiting loss". I'm not saying you should spend $2k for every cable, but decent quality is all we need.

[Ade]

HI doggie and Ade,
Well, I make my living by designing digital commnication equipment and have spent many years operating my own business repairing, maintaining, and baby sitting high end audio equipment. I am a long term (about 40 years) audiophile. So much for credentials. The only one that really counts are our ears.

I would challenge you to hear any difference in a blind test between an inexpensive shielded 75ohm coax digital interconnect and the most expensive one you can buy. Same goes for optical except I say find the cheapest you can buy and test that against the most expensive.
I'd be very surprised in either case if you or anyone else could hear a difference.

John Atkinson, editor of Stereophile, has run long tern tests and has correlated digital sound with jitter produced by signal recovery. The sub-optimal cable, if it is properly defined can aid the reduction of jitter. I have personally used this trick to reduce clock jitter without incurring bit errors.

This is the same John Atkinson that's been criticized for his wishful thinking methods by the Boston Audio Society. It seems like the credibility of his results are suspect.

I'm not calling your EE expertise into question here Sparks but no matter who you are or what your expertise, you are as prone to listening bias as anyone else. Here's an amusing example of that fact, again from the BAS, where Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn fame undergoes a blind test to test out some of his more bizarre claims.

[Ade]

I hear what you are saying. I had no axe to grind and was not searching for anything when I heard what I heard. Remember, I have over $2000 in Power cords and I have listed them as hype.

Yes, I understand that and I fully believe it but one thing that most people do not realize is that they don't have to have a conscious bias either way. In fact, you can have the opposite and actively support that things don't make a difference and still hear differences during sighted tests - marketing and subconscious bias all have an affect whether we like it or not.

This is illustrated in the Stereo Review test when the skeptics heard differences during the sighted part of the test only for those differences to disappear during the blinded part.

One thing I whole heartedly agree with you on though; people should get the best speakers they can or that they feel gives them the most for the money. :T

[caleb]

Mrdoggy - couldn't agree more with your list - I've also been down the upgrade route, and the MOSt significant was to upgrade from 802s to 800Ds - no questions.

Also my change from Tag McLaren 205x3 to my Bryston 7B SST for my fronts made a huge improvement.

After that - well I went through all the cable stuff, anf basically found the same as you - if you have good cables then at that level they are down to personal preference.

Just to prove it - I had a good set of bi-wire and changed to Chord signature (single wire with matching jumpers (V important in my view) - and I liked this sound.

Before this - I was a serious bi-wire advocate - just shows how you can be biased for the wrong reasons.

However, i just disagree with the power cord part.

I made my own from an internet forum - 3 wires braided and then braided again with teflon cover, wire screened and then nylon braid covered (just to make them look nice!) and I DID HEAR AN IMPROVEMENT.

Having said that they only cost me about $80 most of which was the wattgate connector parts.

Apart from that - we are on the same page.

[misterdoggy]

Just to prove it - I had a good set of bi-wire and changed to Chord signature (single wire with matching jumpers (V important in my view) - and I liked this sound.

Before this - I was a serious bi-wire advocate - just shows how you can be biased for the wrong reasons.

Caleb,

Just thought I would like to share this with you.

I'm no expert and have no credentials in the Hifi Realm. So I called my tech friends at B&W in the UK when I took delivery of a set of biwires that were singled ended.

I asked them if it made a difference to use Jumpers or better to go biwire.

The advice of B&W was to go biwire. I didn't understand totally what was told to me not being Scientific, but basically understood that during a short run like a jumper there can be feedback of the signal, while on the long run there can not.

There was a word negative somehing. I can ask them this week to clarify the word.

So I made sure to have biwire. I mean if you think it through, they provided 4 posts on a speaker for a reason they had.

Just for all of your information, my friends at the B&W factory in the UK follow this group, but never participate. They have their own opinions but are not allowed to give them here.

[misterdoggy]

I would challenge you to hear any difference in a blind test between an inexpensive shielded 75ohm coax digital interconnect and the most expensive one you can buy. Same goes for optical except I say find the cheapest you can buy and test that against the most expensive.
I'd be very surprised in either case if you or anyone else could hear a difference.


This is the same John Atkinson that's been criticized for his wishful thinking methods by the Boston Audio Society. It seems like the credibility of his results are suspect.

I'm not calling your EE expertise into question here Sparks but no matter who you are or what your expertise, you are as prone to listening bias as anyone else. Here's an amusing example of that fact, again from the BAS, where Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn fame undergoes a blind test to test out some of his more bizarre claims.

Ade,

I read these articles and am always amused about blind tests etc. 3000 participants etc, but so many people, knowledgeable or not, in situations that don't recreate properly, or with unfamiliar situations, unfamiliar music and unfamiliar equipment.

IMHO, It takes time to familiarize to your own equipment let alone an unfamiliar situation.

If I am going to change something and know how it is affecting then it will be in my own home with music that I know by heart, heard over my own system over and over again. Then when something changes I can truly say I notice the change.

I put on PIANO music not voices, not Rock and Roll pieces. Piano notes are pure and clear. Either Brendel, Rubinstein, or Horowitz playing Mozart or Beethoven single piano clear pieces. I know each of the notes. I can notice a change.

In this atmosphere, I can make one change and close my eyes and tell you what I am hearing. My son is studying to be a Classical Concert Pianist and we have a Steinway in the same room. I listen to the notes played one by one. I listen to the same pieces by Rubinstein and pay attention to the interpretation.

I know the piece, I know how it sounds on my system and I am aware of differences that occur. I don't care about how much money I've thrown away on hype and can readily admit anywhere and

I will always let my ears be my guide on my system in my home with my music.

[jericho]

Misterdoggy

I've got a line conditioner PS Audio 1000 (almost 6000 euro) and I would say this makes a very great difference in sound.Just putting it before the Pre, and the Cd player, also using cables from PS audio (1000 euro each), makes my sound more transparant.

[misterdoggy]

Misterdoggy

I've got a line conditioner PS Audio 1000 (almost 6000 euro) and I would say this makes a very great difference in sound.Just putting it before the Pre, and the Cd player, also using cables from PS audio (1000 euro each), makes my sound more transparant.

Jericho,

Then I accept that this is "valid" for you. I only spoke about what I felt was valid for me. I actually respect each and everyone's opinion, their own ability to discern what works for them.

I have Hydra 6 Shunyata line condition and a Furman 2306 voltage regulator and hear no difference.

So I respect what you say, and you can do the same for me.

Maybe there are other things affect these occurences (like elctricity in one area is dirtier than another area). The bottom line is each and every indivdual setup is different and will have different results in their homes, just as blind tests in other situations.

We need to believe our own ears. Thats the bottom line.

[Aussie Geoff]

Ade - cease and desist now!

Ade.

No more. You have stated most of your views in this thread, several times. "Amplifiers make no difference" and "cables make no difference". You have let all of us know that we are deluding ourselves as afar as you are concerned. Let me see - you have missed the "burn in is a myth" view from some of your other posts. Now I've said that for you and saved you the trouble. Please don't waste anyones time repeating your views again in this thread or I will suspend your membership for a while.

Indeed right now you are "having fun" in several threads accross HTGuide saying the same things over and over again... That's getting boring too! You may want to take a break from posting in the HTGuide unless you can be constructive

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

Well It comes down to each person hears something different because of what ever factors.

Be it Room Acoustics, Cables, Amplifiers, psychologic suggestion, but the bottom line is that everyone wants to make the right choice.

The Group helps us make the right choices, people share input, and intelligence will prevail.

I personally, read, listen, take advice, but ultimately go with my own ears no matter what anyone says.

I can assure anyone out there that has spent $10k on an Amplifier and $16K on a pair of 800D's that its been money well spent, and common sense will rule no matter that some say there's no difference :blah:

Come on.... Its sounds more like sour grapes :boohoo:

Only the village idiot could play devils advocate IMHO :stupidpc:

[gerardhn]

Bonjour monsieur le chien,

Nice to think that I live the closest to you. [1100 km] Which I could hear your set up.
I know your beautifull lake already....

[misterdoggy]

Bonjour monsieur le chien,

Nice to think that I live the closest to you. [1100 km] Which I could hear your set up.
I know your beautifull lake already....

Hi Gerardhn,

Yes we have lots of Dutch people here in the Summertime. I think its 9 or 10 hours to Amsterdam from the Lake.

[NoHype]

I cant say I agree with all the comments you made about things making a diffrence, but i do respect your right to your opinion .

I was glad to see that room acoustics got atleast a tiny mention. I would say right under speakers the very next thing that I would list as effecting the sound quality a system would be acoustic treatments . Acoustic treatments will yield you much larger gains then even the most expensive amp/pre-pro out there. This not opinion it's a fact and it can easily be measured and proven .

I cringe when i see folks with 20-30-40k worth of gear in their rooms and every crazy audio tweek out there yet the room doesnt have one acoustic panel or bass trap.

[misterdoggy]

I cant say I agree with all the comments you made about things making a diffrence, but i do respect your right to your opinion .

I was glad to see that room acoustics got atleast a tiny mention. I would say right under speakers the very next thing that I would list as effecting the sound quality a system would be acoustic treatments . Acoustic treatments will yield you much larger gains then even the most expensive amp/pre-pro out there. This not opinion it's a fact and it can easily be measured and proven .

I cringe when i see folks with 20-30-40k worth of gear in their rooms and every crazy audio tweek out there yet the room doesnt have one acoustic panel or bass trap.

I know this to be true although I have not played with it. There are the constraints of the "little lady" to live with. All our walls are full of "Art" and there has to be some trade offs.

Acoustic Treatments can do amazing things.

Everything I have said has been my personal experience in my home with my components and by no means represents "absolute" truths. Its only results from my experimenting, like reporting what I found to be true or not.

[NoHype]

Are you trying to tell me that your better half cant appreciate the fine look of 4 inch thick acoustic panels placed on your walls along with a nice 8ft bass trap in the corner ?

I can understand 100% that if your not in a dedicated room acoustic treatments are tough to pull off . Its a real shame becuase they do make a massive improvment in sound .

Also , sorry if i came off like i was telling you what you should be hearing , that was not my intenet . Like I said I respect your opinions .

[B&W 700 Guy]

Well time has gone by and its been about a year and I've spent probably close to $100,000 buying top quality Hifi and HT material and its starting to become clear what things make a difference, what things appear to be snake oil.

I thought I would share my view's

1. Speakers make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost. 700's to 802D's definitely the big payoff !! Bigtime difference

2. Amplifiers make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost, but at the top there is hardly a difference, just slight enough to say I prefer this sound to another.

3. Preamplifiers make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost. ditto to the Amplifier

4. Processors make a difference. You can clearly hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost although with Films its less apparent than Preamlifiers with music.

5. DAC's make a difference. but the difference's are subtle

6. Interconnects make a difference. You can hear the difference between a low quality and a high quality cable, but I have not been able to hear ANY difference between 2 different high quality cables Buy a good quality, but after there's does not seem to be a difference between good quality and great quality Snake Oil...

7. Speaker Cable This is an area where I have not been able to hear as much a difference between cables. I actually had heavy guage "x" brand and $1000 "y" well known brand and although there was some difference in sound I could not say that one was better only different.

8. Line Conditioners Snake Oil personified. No difference what so ever. Hype Hype. Sorry...... Tried $1000 conditioners nothing

9. Power Cords Snake Oil, no difference. One guy offered me $1000 power cords and there was no difference between that one and the $75 brand "X". and none between brand "X" and $6.00 cord made in china.

10. Digital Cables make a difference. You can hear the difference between a low quality and a high quality cable, but I have not been able to hear ANY difference between 2 different high quality cables Buy a good quality, but after there's does not seem to be a difference between good quality and great quality Snake Oil..

11. Upscalers Big difference between the picture before and after, but probably no difference between one brand and the next or so slight you can only measure with special color templates, and tests that reveal differences. Your eyes really don't see it. 1080p is great 1080i is great but to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p is pretty hard. Yes there is a difference between 476i and 720p thats for sure, but probaly no difference between a unit thats $700 and $6000.

12. CD/DVD players make a difference. You can hear the difference everytime you move up in quality and cost although with Films its less subtle than with music.

Anyhow, these opinions are based on my personal experience and do not represent an absolute truth for anyone else but me. I have bought everything right up to the top materials and Brands, top of the line and feel if something would reveal itself, it would with these components.

The biggest single difference is the source material. A good CD/DVD recorded well will make a big difference

I agree with your experiences. When it comes down to it, they are your experiences. A person can go out and spend $200,000.00 and make bad purchase judgments, and have a system that doest sound like a 200k system.
This forum is a guide and not Gospel. A person who is serious about Audio/HT must go out and listen and make their own judgments.

Every room has its own issues as does matching equipment for the best sound. Speaker cable does matter. Try Silver Speaker Cables with my 703 speakers and they will ring. People say a $100.00 Power Cable won’t make a difference; well I tested, and then purchased one for my Subwoffer and the cable made a big difference. If you have power problems, maybe a double conversion UPS will help, I don’t Know? Can buying one amp make your sound system sound better, yes, I bought a Sunfire GTA 5200 and I noticed a big improvement.

I don't hear it as much here as other Forums, but, I hate "Are you going to believe me or your lie'n ears" I am not saying that this is you, but, Just because a person spends allot of money on a system, doesn’t mean that they paired the right equipment together.

[Andrew M Ward]

I would say right under speakers the very next thing that I would list as effecting the sound quality a system would be acoustic treatments . Acoustic treatments will yield you much larger gains then even the most expensive amp/pre-pro out there. This not opinion it's a fact and it can easily be measured and proven .

You speak the truth

It is very hard to get people to understand this simple fact... "The Room The Room The Room" in that order, everything else is secondary...

That said, most folks have never heard a good room... So there you have it.

(Just my 2 cents)

[Russ L]

Mr. Doggy- Thanks for sharing all your experience with audio-video equipment. Also thanks for all the great pics you've posted of your system upgrades. Quite the journey building your amazing $100,000 system. ;x( Its helped make the HT Guide an interesting and informative forum -Russ

[Andrew M Ward]

I would challenge you to hear any difference in a blind test between an inexpensive shielded 75ohm coax digital interconnect and the most expensive one you can buy. Same goes for optical except I say find the cheapest you can buy and test that against the most expensive.
I'd be very surprised in either case if you or anyone else could hear a difference.


This is the same John Atkinson that's been criticized for his wishful thinking methods by the Boston Audio Society. It seems like the credibility of his results are suspect.

I'm not calling your EE expertise into question here Sparks but no matter who you are or what your expertise, you are as prone to listening bias as anyone else. Here's an amusing example of that fact, again from the BAS, where Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn fame undergoes a blind test to test out some of his more bizarre claims.

Ade,
Thanks for attaching those links, I really enjoyed them.
Uhh.... I would hope you find a way to "stick around" the forum, without compromising yourself...

:W

[WI Rotel]

Misterdoggy, your points are all correct but these are points any decent stereo fan has known since the inception of the electronic phonograph. It's all simply physics. On speaker cables the only difference is size the longer the cable the thicker it should be, no mystery there a 12 ga cable can carry more current than an 18 ga one, in physics:resistence in a metal conductor is inversly proportional to it's gauge. Furthermore there is no better cunductor than copper, other metals (gold) simply corrode less, silver is actually worse its very corrosion prone.
On interconnecting cables the same applies, but the currents are very weak thus gauge is not crucial, what is crucial is shielding since all wires create a magnetic field when carrying a current, again not rocket science but better shielding and non corroding connectors are important and add a little to the price. A decent interconnect may cost 2-3 times what the 2 dollar radio shack special may cost.
As I have said before an amps job is to amplify without adding distortion or noise, thus any amplifier that has enogh power to power your speakers without being driven to distortion is excellent, of course that costs money but you are simply playing the fool by buying an amp thet costs 3 times what another one that has the same specs does (thats why I appreciate rotel). Unfortunately, you only know all the specs when some publication does the appropriate tests. Digital interconnects are another piece of nonsense, all they do is transmit ones and zero's if you use an ooptical cable they all work the same, there is no mystery in the transmission of photons. Its tried and true (not to mention cheap) technology. Pre pro, same thing as an amp but they only switch and add a varistor (AKA volume) another very old simple technology. As far as processors, there are differences specifically what the can decode and how fast they are but that is it, the main determinator of quality here is the analog fidelity of the D/A conversion. Finally the speaker, obviously, by a long, long shot the most critical aspect of you're audio expirience. They come in alll shapes sizes and prices. The perfect speaker is the one that converts the electrical signal into sound, again, without adding or substracting anything from the signal. Unfortunately this is where the easy physics ends and the piles of money start disappearing. In my long history of audio, no one really does fidelity as well as BW but even they produce speakers that are far from perfect fidelity-wise. Case in point the 300 series which have middling accuracy scores but are still liked by the low budget listener because the are bass heavy. But even in speakers the law of dimishing returns and foolhardiness prevails. A simple example is the 800 and the Nautilus, the 800 is a better sound reproducer than the nautilus, nevertheless, the nautilus cost more than twice than the already obscene cost of the 800, the nautilus is thus the emperors "new clothes".

[misterdoggy]

As I have said before an amps job is to amplify without adding distortion or noise, thus any amplifier that has enogh power to power your speakers without being driven to distortion is excellent, of course that costs money but you are simply playing the fool by buying an amp thet costs 3 times what another one that has the same specs does (thats why I appreciate rotel). Unfortunately, you only know all the specs when some publication does the appropriate tests.

To think there is no difference between Rotel and the Top Stuff is not exactly right.

I can give first hand advice here. I had the top of the line Rotel 1090 (big Sucker) here before I replaced it with a Krell FPB400CX. Rotel was a nice Amp, but when the Krell played the same Piano pieces you could hear things that weren't there with the Rotel.

It was though the "light" cotton in my ears had fallen out. My son who is the Pianist, was sitting listening with me, and we looked at each other with amazement.

Even between top Amps like Krell and now I've settled on Mark Levinson, there are subtle differences, but it has to do more with taste.

Yeah I'm afraid build quality, and different materials render different sounds.

Interesting note, is there are companies that take CD/DVD players and do a "mod" job on them. Their point is that even at the high end, mass produced players need to be cost effective and skimp in certain areas. They replace certain parts with top quality stuff and many have said they can't believe the difference afterwards.

With so much stuff inside an Amplifier, its not as simple as signal comes in and signal goes out. For whatever reasons, 70 lbs of build one way has to be different from 70 lbs of build another way to put it in the simplest terms.

There will always be those that say lamp wire is the same as speaker wire and one SS amp is no different than another, backed up with scientific facts and figures.

Even one guy here on the group (I went back and re-read his posts to figure what he had) who has a 4306 and 704 speakers that insists there is no difference with anything and almost says all stereos are the same. Actually someone like this has no place in an audiophile group as its like an athiest in a church group. Well let me plop 2 Krell FPB750MCX Monaural (2 x 750 Class A watt Amplifiers) in his living room with a pair of 800D's and show him the gospel. Even he would see the light. ;x(

[Briz vegas]

It was me, it was me!!!!

I was the guy with the 704s and the 4306....honest. I was going under a different name and all that. Do you want my address now? and can I keep the gear for a bit? It might take me a while to tell the difference and truely appreciate the difference. Think of it as an indefinite loan. Promise to give them back in the same condition if I go deaf in my old age, at which point I will say "sorry sonny, can't hear any difference"

[misterdoggy]

Very Funny :T

Actually, I'd like those 800D's sent to my home.

I would never say another bad thing about anything anywhere :dothewave:

There must be a Good HiFi Fairy that will send us a pair if we are good :righton:

[WI Rotel]

Very Funny :T

Actually, I'd like those 800D's sent to my home.

I would never say another bad thing about anything anywhere :dothewave:

There must be a Good HiFi Fairy that will send us a pair if we are good :righton:

Mister doggy I hadn't seen your location! We stayed at at the Imperial Palace hotel last summer. I must attest that you live in one of the most beautiful places in the world, simply stunning, "cest tres jollie" :^x . We followed our stay there by a couple of days in Gruyeres, which in our trip book still stands as our number 1 favorite place! We hadn't been to Europe in 20 years since my army days and had a great time!
As to the Krell your point drives the point even better, more power without adding distortion= better sound. You simply doubled your power! If you played both at the same output level the sound would be identical but once the demand goes up the less powerful amplifier will obviously start to suffer sonically, specially in the most dynamic parts. An amps most important feature is not its RMS, its its dynamic headroom (again, clean headroom not just raw power). So yes the krell you are quoting does sound better than the rotel due to its power, on the other hand, a krell of the same output sounds the same but still costs twice as much. :T

[DL86]

Hmmmm thanks for the inspiration to all rotel owners. But I see a Halcro dm68 2 channel amplifier retailing here in australia for $58 000 and a rotel rb-1080 for $1600. Both have the same rated power output, ok the halcro might get more power down to 2 ohms and under and have more dynamic headroom as you say, but would someone with a right mind even consider them to be close to each other in terms of performance just because their power rating is similar?

[misterdoggy]

Hmmmm thanks for the inspiration to all rotel owners. But I see a Halcro dm68 2 channel amplifier retailing here in australia for $58 000 and a rotel rb-1080 for $1600. Both have the same rated power output, ok the halcro might get more power down to 2 ohms and under and have more dynamic headroom as you say, but would someone with a right mind even consider them to be close to each other in terms of performance just because their power rating is similar?

Exactly the point :T You got the ring !!

Actually where I hear the most difference is not when I'm pushing power but at low volumes there is greater detail.......

With Amplifiers, you get what you pay for ;x(

[WI Rotel]

Hmmmm thanks for the inspiration to all rotel owners. But I see a Halcro dm68 2 channel amplifier retailing here in australia for $58 000 and a rotel rb-1080 for $1600. Both have the same rated power output, ok the halcro might get more power down to 2 ohms and under and have more dynamic headroom as you say, but would someone with a right mind even consider them to be close to each other in terms of performance just because their power rating is similar?

There are turntables that cost 50K, Do they sound better than a 1K one? Not really, furthermore, one listening to a 15 dollar DVDA and you will simply dump the turntable into the crapper! Tube amplifiers do offer better sound at lower listening levels since transistors do their job more efficiently at warmer temperatures than tubes. Of course, tubes will only play low volumes, thus they are totally useless for video. The only readily dicernible difference between a Halcro and a top flight rotel or any other fine amp is that little voice inside your head whispering "you're an idiot with money to burn" They are simply toys for brainiacs like Snoop Dog and Kid Rock!

[misterdoggy]

There are turntables that cost 50K, Do they sound better than a 1K one? Not really, furthermore, one listening to a 15 dollar DVDA and you will simply dump the turntable into the crapper! Tube amplifiers do offer better sound at lower listening levels since transistors do their job more efficiently at warmer temperatures than tubes. Of course, tubes will only play low volumes, thus they are totally useless for video. The only readily dicernible difference between a Halcro and a top flight rotel or any other fine amp is that little voice inside your head whispering "you're an idiot with money to burn" They are simply toys for brainiacs like Snoop Dog and Kid Rock!

I have to ask, because there are always skeptics like yourself that doubt that expenisve equipment doesn't sound better.

Please don't take this wrong, as everyone needs to spend within their means, myself included. I could not afford to lay out $50k for an Amplifier, but $12 an Amp is OK.

You say "it won't sound different" whatever turntable or Amp, but Have you (and please answer honestly) ever owned a $12k Amp or had the opportunity to try one out IN YOUR HOME.

If the answer is no, I listened in a store or I saw one at the Audio Show or it doesn't make any sense scientifically, then this is not firsthand experience.

I can tell you first hand experience, in my house, with my speakers, same cables, same cd player, same everything except the Amp that the Krell FPB400CX at low volumes offers much more detail than the top of the line 1090 Rotel which I lived with for 6 months.

I had the Rotel for 6 months, Krell for 6 months and now Mark Levinsons 432 and 433 for only a couple of months, but can tell you I am familiar with these Amps as I have spent many listening hours and know them well.

Now if you believe me, and think I am reasonably intelligent and competent, then I am confirming to you, that in the Amplifier realm you WILL get what you pay for. $1600 will get you $1600 and $12k will get you a lot more :T