Lack of clarity, HTM2D center channel

[nkb]

I just recently installed my system:

B&W 802D (R/L)
B&W HTM2D (center)
B&W inwall surrounds
B&W ASW825 sub

McIntosh 501 monoblocks for the R/C/L
McIntosh 252 for the surrounds

Anthem D2 pre/processor

I am happy with the audio(primarily stereo) aspects of my setup, but am finding that for HT that I am having trouble hearing dialogue clearly. I have some concern that because the HTM2D is placed in a cabinet (open in front and half of back), that I may be getting some distortion. I have tried multiple things:

a. moved the speaker out a bit from the cabinet cavity, although still perched in the cabinet

b.put the foam plugs in the ports

c.adjusted speaker settings, equalizations, etc. in the D2 pre/processor.

Nothing really seems to improve things.

I should note that all the speakers are brand new. So there has been no real breakin. Is it possible with time that the clarity will improve noticeably?

I haven't tried killing the L/R and run the center only to see if the problem still persists. Perhaps their interactions are causing the problem. I have the basic volume settings the same for all speakers. I used a sound meter to check this and have a flat response. Maybe I should boost the center relative to the fronts? Haven't tried that either.

Any suggestions from those that have been through this before?

[Kal Rubinson]

Ditch the cabinet. You and B&W have invested so much in the Nautilis devvelopments to, among other things, improve dispersion and you put it inside a box. What can you expect? Try the HTM2D by itself, in and out of the cabinet and draw your own conclusions.

Kal

[nkb]

Not that easy

I understand your point, but given the layout of my room(s) this is not so easy.

Envisage the cabinet as a room divider (partial wall) with the HTM2D on shelf below the plasma. There are open volumes to back, left and right, and front. The top however, is close.

I'll move the speaker completely forward outside of the cabinet, temporarily, and see what the difference is. If it is much better, not entirely sure what I can do permanently however. Perhaps some damping material on the insides of the cabinet. I'll experiment further.

[Kal Rubinson]

Try anything. Rather than damping, perhaps 1"fiberglass liners to minize the internal reflections in the cabinet.

Kal

[caleb]

I recently upgraded from the old HTM1 to the new HTM2D and am thrilled with the improvements.
I agree with Kal - get the HTM2D out ofd the cabinet and onto a stand on it's own and you will hear a tremendous difference.

[misterdoggy]

I have the exact same speakers you have except for the surrounds. The htm2d likes to be forward out at least sticking out of the cabinet. Forget the foam plugs as that doesn't have any affect on the tweeter.

Sounds like the cabinet. My htm2d is on a shelf that is open on all sides and the sound is great and precise. That Anthem is a good unit and you should not have any issues with the center channel.

Open the front and back and try to put it on as big a shelf as possible with lots of room around it. Place it as forward as possible, even sticking out of the front. Make sure its pointed to the center of the listening area. If the speaker is low, point it up to the angle that corresponds to head height. All these things can help.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Hi NKB,
I use a CDMCNT located on a shelf under the tv and had to do some experimenting before the speaker sounded good.

First thing, what is the HTM2D sitting on in the cabinet? I would recommend spiking it with large brass spikes. B&W makes spikes for it. There are also good spikes in the aftermarket that will work also.

If the speaker is lower than the rest of the speakers, tilt it up when spiked onto a solid surface. I use a 2x4 stained to match my cabinet and the sound is a lot clearer.

If the speaker must be in the cabinet, you can get a pull-out shelf from a cabinet supplier for cheap. It will come on a bracket system like a kitchen drawer. Just pull it out when in use and slide back after. Just get one with a shelf that is solid enough for that speaker.

Further break-in will also help a lot. Try to use the speaker a few hours a day, even at low volumes. After a month it should be better.
Good luck
Steel

[nkb]

Improvement with modified settings

I modified the treble/bass settings for the center channel and this has helped quite a bit.

[stewfoo]

I understand that it is not ideal to have a cabinet. But, aesthetics count as well. I paid nearly $12k for this custom piece of furniture. I was way too committed by the time I learned anything about audio.

I have included a pic of my solution. I simply purchased auralex foam and lined the entire cabinet. The results were dramatic. Echo and distortion is essentially eliminated. I do however eliminate the speaker's ability to "breathe."

I just made the best of a bad situation

[Kal Rubinson]

When my daughter and son-in-law did their main theater, they reached a good compromise. At rest, the Revel Gems and the Revel Voice are behind grills in the 30w'x12'h wall-to-wall book-case/cabinet. For real use, the screen lowers, the grilled doors open and the three speakers roll forward almost 3'!! Since the lights and the black-out shades are down, the appearance then is moot.

Kal

[chinets]

I have My center in a cabinet too , but above the T.V. Therefore, I pulled the center out a little ,and put a a piece of wood covered in cloth to protect the wood of the center, and had the Center tilted downwards ,and that perfected the dialogue sound and is extremely clear.
I have no idea if this would be your particular solution, but it worked for me. Maybe that will give you some ideas.
Good luck though ,and keep us posted on the outcome.
Cheers!!

[Gump]

nkb,

Congratulations on your newly installed sytem! That is some great equipment!

Unfortunately, I'm in the same boat as you with the HTM2D center. Mine is on a shelf in a wall niche above the TV. I first noticed a problem when I played the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" DVD. Don's voice sounded a bit muffled.

I'm afraid I don't have any great solution either, other than what's already been suggested. I did pull my center out as far as I could so the tweeter sticks out in front of the wall a few inches and that seemed to help a bit. Boosting the gain on the center a notch or two is also a good idea presuming it doesn't effect the balance of the front soundfield.

I thought Steel's idea about the pull-out shelf was terrific and I'm going to check into that myself. (Thanks Steel).

My speakers are broken in now and it seems to be better.....either that or I've just gotten used to it! At any rate, good luck and remember that you have to balance the HT/HI-FI with the home decor. (unless you get a dedicated listening room!)

There's always compromises...

[misterdoggy]

This is my solution. Its on a shelf, but open all around.

[RobP]

Hows the center stage height with the glass over the tweeter Misterdoggy?

[misterdoggy]

I had the plasma higher before and the tweeter at the same height at the L+R, but was sacrificing viewing height.

Now I think it is important to have the relationship of the screen and the center channel as close together as possible to keep the "soundstage" tight.

Because the center channel is lower than head height I have it forward slightly out and clear of the glass and tilted or angled upward directed to head height (notice the white rubber feet on the front of the speaker and not at the back)

This carries the sound clear and centered to the viewer. And also as recommended the height of the Plasma should be no higher than head height at the bottom of the viewing screen. Ideally in the middle, but with all the equipment I have this works nicely, as the room is big and it needs to be a little higher for everyone to see.

by the way soundgravy, I meant to congratulate you on you becoming a moderator. All the best !!!!!

[ZX10 Guy]

Not to be argumentative or to start a flame war, but here's my take on the compromises dictated by form and function. Some of you all are spending a lot of money on your speakers to get the sound that speaker promises to deliver. Because of the placement of the speaker, the speaker will never ultimately deliver 100% of it's potential performance. So the question to me is....Wouldn't it make sense to buy a cheaper center speaker that might ultimately deliver the same sound as the more expensive one given the placement constraints? To me it seems like wasting money on a expensive speaker and then intentionally crippling the speaker because of placement issues.

Along that line, I made my own compromises by going with a center speaker. And I know in addition to the engineering compromises by having a center speaker, there are also acoustical issues by just having my center sitting on top of my equipment rack. I didn't think my purchase through thoroughly enough. Had I really thought things out on how I ultimately set up my sound room, I would have gone with another floor standing N804 so I have exact speaker matching and voicing across the front and the surrounds. I still my think about doing this but now I have to see if I can buy one N804 used and sell the HTM1.

[misterdoggy]

In a Home Cinema the center speaker IS THE MOST IMPORTANT speaker. Every effort should be made to have the best possible speaker as most of the speaking dialogue, and information is sent to the center.

PERIOD.

In an SACD setup ALL 5 SPEAKERS are equally important

In Stereo THE LEFT and RIGHT SPEAKERS are most important

Ideal would be to have 5 speakers of all the same timbre ie: all 804 or all 802D etc.

If I had the space I would put an htm1D, what a beautiful beast.

[ZX10 Guy]

In a Home Cinema the center speaker IS THE MOST IMPORTANT speaker. Every effort should be made to have the best possible speaker as most of the speaking dialogue, and information is sent to the center.

PERIOD.

In an SACD setup ALL 5 SPEAKERS are equally important

In Stereo THE LEFT and RIGHT SPEAKERS are most important

Ideal would be to have 5 speakers of all the same timbre ie: all 804 or all 802D etc.

If I had the space I would put an htm1D, what a beautiful beast.

I agree. Having the best center is critical for HT applications and would argue also for 2 channel and multichannel music (provided you listen to high res or use processing like Trifield for 2 channel music.) My point is why buy an expensive center which is meant to be set up a certain and intentionally cripple the center's performance by not optimally placing it? You're not getting all your money's worth spent on that center speaker. To me it's like leaving money or performance on the table unused. I contend you would save money and end up with a setup that would probably sound very close if a cheaper center was used in place of the more expensive one.

[misterdoggy]

I contend you would save money and end up with a setup that would probably sound very close if a cheaper center was used in place of the more expensive one.

Well, the answer is that no matter what the placement, the best results will come from the best speaker possible.

If the placement isn't great it won't sound as good as it could

The same bad placement with a worse speaker won't sound just as good, but worse. So its a another step down from where you were.

I'd rather have a great speaker with a bad placement, than a lesser speaker in a bad placement.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

nkb,

I thought Steel's idea about the pull-out shelf was terrific and I'm going to check into that myself. (Thanks Steel).

There's always compromises...

No Problemo.

[Stevebez]

I auditioned a HTM2D in my lounge - and well I was disappointed... It sounded really boxy ... what could have been wrong ? I desperately wanted it to be great - but it just was not ... maybe I needed to bi-amp it or it needed more power or I needed to fiddel with the crossovers more ... the overall sound spectrum was wider - but vouices sounded decidedly boxy ... maybe I just got used to non - barotone speech with my current (by comparison very poor centre) Boston Acoustics Micro90IIC ...

Any thots ?? ... sorry dont want to hi jackbut maybe we have a similar problem - I placed the unit ontop of a server just under the screen - the rear was pretty close to the back wall and think I may have picked up some reverb from it...

I think the HTM2D deserves to be freestanding on its custom pedastals to get the best out of it ...

[Aldo]

The HTM2D is a great, great center, I had one once and It sounded great! It was on the floor but tilted to my head, it shure needs to be out of that box, but if you can't take it out, tilt it, it will improve I can ashure!

[misterdoggy]

I have my HTM2D on an open shelf below head level but slightly tilted upwards directly to the height of a sitting person on the couch.

It sounds great. There are many factors why a speaker may or may not sound right ie: Amp, preamp, source, cables,most likely the room, position from the wall, surrounding pieces of furniture. I definitely don't think biAmping or biWiring is going to change anything.

[Aldo]

I'm with doggy!

[misterdoggy]

Aldo,

My compliments on your logo foto. The composition, balance shows Artistic appreciation. arte contemporáneo felicitaciones !! me gusto mucho

[Aldo]

Thank you very much!
Everytime you put a new picture there is something changed, you just can't keep your hand off your sistem right?
And all your ML's make me :M envy!
Congratulations on your new equipment aditions! ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x( ;x(

[Aldo]

Where is your 390S?

[misterdoggy]

thats the old picture heres the current system

[Aldo]

Mrdoggy: are you using the internal DAC of the 390? What do you think of it?

[misterdoggy]

Yeah, I think its great............

Me Gusto mucho !! The big difference was switching from the Ayre D1XE which is a great CD player and great DVD all in one ($10,000) to a dedicated CD only player more than the difference between the 390S' DAC and the 360S' DAC which I feld was unremarkable.

[Aldo]

OK! Thanks!

[PavelL]

Misterdoggy, how do you get good imaging in classic stereo with that reflective surface - your plazma - exactly between the fronts? And the spkrs are placed BEHIND the screen!?!?!? Did you try it without the plazma in between? then you can toe the spkrs in a bit...or do you usually cover the screen with some kind of acoustic foam when listening to stereo? I think I have reasons to ask :W

[Aldo]

That was an extended topic explained before several times!
As with many of us The Boss (his wife) has the last word on speaker placement!
He takes audio messures and gets the best he can from the setup!

[PavelL]

That was an extended topic explained before several times!
As with many of us The Boss (his wife) has the last word on speaker placement!
He takes audio messures and gets the best he can from the setup!

oh THAT explanation :roll:

[nkb]

Different Pre-amp made a big difference?

Well, after my initial post that started this thread I have gone through multiple Anthem D2 pre/pros (5!). All of them failed in one way or another (video, overheating, ...)

I now have a McIntosh MX135 paired with my McAmps. Whether these just complement each other and the B&W's better than with the D2 in the mix I don't know. Maybe I never got the D2 set up just right.

In any event, center channel clarity is much, much better. In fact I am no longer straining at listening to dialog. It may also be that time has passed and the HTM2D is more broken in?

Whatever the reason I am much happier with my system. The MX135 while lacking the bells and whistles of the D2, just flatout performs. I seem to have a much more "coherent" system now and can get down to true enjoyment. I even hooked up my old turntable and am having fun listening to vinyl that I haven't explored for a couple of decades. I'm listening to records in a "pure stereo" mode with no center involved. My 802D's sound fantastic in this situation. :P

[misterdoggy]

nkb,

Well Its no surprise that McIntosh would sound better than Anthem. I'm afraid Anthem isn't at the level of McIntosh just yet. Congratulations on your choice well done

[misterdoggy]

Misterdoggy, how do you get good imaging in classic stereo with that reflective surface - your plazma - exactly between the fronts? And the spkrs are placed BEHIND the screen!?!?!? Did you try it without the plazma in between? then you can toe the spkrs in a bit...or do you usually cover the screen with some kind of acoustic foam when listening to stereo? I think I have reasons to ask :W

Actually the speakers are pushed together for the foto. They ARE wider apart and toed in and although the foto looks like the screen face and the speakers are the same the Plasma is at the very back of the shelf while the speakers are forward. So the front of the speakers are about 2 feet in front of the screen

As for imaging, I got the perfect center image in stereo. If you were here Pavel and I sat you on the couch, you would not be able to tell if the center speaker was on or off in stereo. Its perfecto ........

[Aldo]

I though about a problem with your pre/pro since the beginning! But 5? Wow!
The Mac is great!
Enjoy your sytem!

[nkb]

I though about a problem with your pre/pro since the beginning! But 5? Wow!
The Mac is great!
Enjoy your sytem!

Yep, 5.

My dealer and I finally ran out of patience with the D2. After all, we spent >4 months and fooling with 5xD2 units and never could reach a satisfactory solution.

The dealer provided the McIntosh MX135 as a straight across replacement even though the MX135 is $2K more expensive.

He took the lead from this point on to deal with my returned D2 and Anthem, and thankfully took me out of the loop. A great example of how an excellent dealer can and should act in support of their customers.

[Aldo]

Wow! I already returm my Halcro SSP100 2 times maybe I will return it 3 times more and get the KRELL EVO for free!
Well I don't think so! :cry:
Great dealer, you must be very happy, the McIntosh is way better! ;x(

[misterdoggy]

Seems there are problems with the D2 and the Halcro from what I have read. When It comes to a processor I think going with the sturdy brands that seem to have no issues ie: Rotel, McIntosh, Lexicon..... these are some of the workhorses that keep on going and going.

I've owned all 3 brands and although I burned out a Lexicon 12B's power supply, it was more the fault of wavering power than issues with software and hardware. I'm sure some of you out there have other brands you would like to mention as well.

Brands like Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, Harmon Kardon and a host of others that while they may not be the top sound, their software ease of use and reliability in governing the system counts for a lot.

I have heard good things about Halcro, but many have written about problems. sounds little shakey to me. Anthem is at the cutting edge and the first to use the inboard upscaling, but at a price that makes it slightly unreliable. Of course this is from only what I have read from previous posts.