Advice for front speakers - 703s, 804s or something else?

[alpina]

hi all,

thanks for all your guideance to date

system is now nearing completion and has come a long way since i joined the group.

you can see from our signature what we have so far.

so big question is what to do for fronts?

be mindful that size does matter and we want to keep it as small as possible. the acoustics in our room will be shot regardless (ie, polished concrete floors, high ceilings, lots of glass, etc) so hopefully if nothing else, it should look good

having come a long way from in-ceiling or on-wall speakers, we have been looking at the 703/htm4 (like smaller size of center) and 804/htm3 (like sound but not size of htm3 and price ) now that we have the 705s and aws 750 not sure if there is any point in looking beyond b&w gear but happy to change viewpoint if viable. btw, we have gone with rosenut

let me say that this is one very expensive hobby you boys have

please assist.

regards,

julie

[Haakon]

Im woundering about the 805S right now. The HTM4S center is the perfect match for 805S, and they look perfect on some nice stands... They need a subwoofer, as they dont produce as much bass.

However, the HTM3S is not the perfect match for 703. Thats one of the reasons why i will not go for the 700-series.. they dont really have the matching center.

I`m also wondering about the 804S and the HTM3S, but I think it will kill my budget, also the HTM3S is very large, even under my 50" plasma. But then again, a 804S will probably sound "larger" with more bass.

:scratchhead:

[Joey_V]

I would go 804S having heard those 2 side by side.

[Nolan B]

Honeslty since room accustics makes a bigger difference then which speakers you use I wouldnt spend money on any speaker which which producess detailed sound...you would be wasitn your mind. You thought about buying on looks is a smarter approach. Look at the XT Series if you want B&W.


I also just read you have a 50" plasma....is it on the wall? If so look at the FPM 5s. They look and sound great, and again if you have poor room accustics they probably wont sound any worse then the 800 series...

[NonSense]

Wow

I think this is the first time I have ever read a recommendation not to get speakers which produce detailed sound.

Lively rooms can be treated, but poor sounding speakers are a little more difficult.

Alot can be done to a room that will make a big difference without going over the top. Your high ceilings should help. Book shelves with various sized books. Canvas artwork. Window treatments. A few pillows hear and there.

Think of the room as the next project, once the gear selection project is over.

Regarding the speakers. Keep in mind that for movies, the majority of the sountrack is mixed for the center channel. (the dialog) Therefore, having a good center channel is important. I also don't see any issues with using an HTM4 with the 804S if it works for you. The big sacrifice is the FST in the center channel. But you would have the same problem with choosing the 703 and its FST midrange driver. If you like 2CH music then the 804S for the mains are worth the stretch. (IMO) If HT is your thing, the 700 series to match your surrounds is still an amazing HT system.

For what it is worth, my local B&W dealer once told me this: In the older product range, they would rarely sell the CNT9's. They would generally push their customers from CNT7's to N804 as the incremental cost from CNT9 to N804 was minor compared to the jump in performance. Not sure if this carries any weight with the new 700 and 800 series, but I thought it was an interesting statement to pass along.

[Nolan B]

Wow

I think this is the first time I have ever read a recommendation not to get speakers which produce detailed sound.

Lively rooms can be treated, but poor sounding speakers are a little more difficult.

Alot can be done to a room that will make a big difference without going over the top. Your high ceilings should help. Book shelves with various sized books. Canvas artwork. Window treatments. A few pillows hear and there.

Think of the room as the next project, once the gear selection project is over.

Regarding the speakers. Keep in mind that for movies, the majority of the sountrack is mixed for the center channel. (the dialog) Therefore, having a good center channel is important. I also don't see any issues with using an HTM4 with the 804S if it works for you. The big sacrifice is the FST in the center channel. But you would have the same problem with choosing the 703 and its FST midrange driver. If you like 2CH music then the 804S for the mains are worth the stretch. (IMO) If HT is your thing, the 700 series to match your surrounds is still an amazing HT system.

For what it is worth, my local B&W dealer once told me this: In the older product range, they would rarely sell the CNT9's. They would generally push their customers from CNT7's to N804 as the incremental cost from CNT9 to N804 was minor compared to the jump in performance. Not sure if this carries any weight with the new 700 and 800 series, but I thought it was an interesting statement to pass along.

it was mentioned that the room is shot. If you assume the room wont be treated then paying lots of money for high end speakers is a waste...in my opinion.

[dyazdani]

it was mentioned that the room is shot. If you assume the room wont be treated then paying lots of money for high end speakers is a waste...in my opinion.

I do not agree with that logic. Lower quality speakers will sound low quality no matter what room you put them in.

Good speakers may not sound their best in a poor room, but it can be fixed. Room treatments can be made that do not cost much.

I haven't heard either the 703 or 804S so I can't comment there. Last 7 series I heard were the older CDM7SE.

[Nolan B]

I do not agree with that logic. Lower quality speakers will sound low quality no matter what room you put them in.

Good speakers may not sound their best in a poor room, but it can be fixed. Room treatments can be made that do not cost much.

I haven't heard either the 703 or 804S so I can't comment there. Last 7 series I heard were the older CDM7SE.

its a lot of extra money that will be wasting, and you are assuming they will make treatments. Of course 800s are going to sound better then 600s in a poorly treated room, but is it worth spending thousands more for the small increment in quality? Room accustics make more of a difference in overall sound then speakers do

[RobP]

I would go with the highest qaulity that I could afford, just because your room isnt perfect does not mean that you should go with a lesser speaker. The 804S would be a great choice out of what you have picked as options.

[dknightd]

The 804 is a better speaker, and, has a matching center (at least
I think it does). The 703 is a fine speaker (I own them, but used in 2-channel only system) and they match your sourround and subwoofer choice at least in appearance. But the 804 is better by almost everybodies opinion, mine included.
From what I've read there really is no center channel match for the 703 which makes it a questionable choice for home theatre (unless you buy 3, or 5, of them and can tolorate a tall center speaker).

Really you have to listen to the options. If I were in your shoes I might consider 5 805's with the matching subwoofer (but if you already own the 705 I can see you wanting to keep using them)

Room treatments make a HUGE difference. It is amazing what a couple
hundred dollars of rigid compressed fiberglass and some cloth will do.

They are all good speakers - buy what you like and can afford. Don't go just by advise from people you don't know and have never met!

[alpina]

really appreciate the advice to date.

firstly let me say that i would never buy any speakers without hearing them. having said this, in all likelihood regardless of whether i hear them first or not they are likely to sound very different when i purchase them and set them up at home.

yes, our room is not acoustically perfect - having said this, it's not really cost that is the issue but rather compromising on a room that to us visually looks nothing short of stunning - we like that hard, clinical, commercial look about the room (if that makes sense) and we are not too keen on softening it unless we can do it stealthly but your right, room acoustics can come later.

vancouver, our plasma is wall mounted and you may recall i've started many threads in the past about fpm's, in ceiling and boston p series speakers but now that we have purchased the amps, we are very keen to buy speakers that will do them justice.

our listening is 70/30 HT. we did consider the 805s and prefer them visually (small ) but upon listening to them in a 2ch setup vs the 703, we preferred the sound of the 703s. the fact that the 703s cost the same as 805s with stands was another bonus. we particularly liked the htm4 vs the htm7 and had it of had an fst driver we probably would have locked in the speakers by now - which brings us to the 804/htm3 combo - a very nice, more expensive (again) speaker with a largish center.

the other speakers that we liked were from dynaudio. initially we had discounted them because we were going to run everything off the yamaha but now things have changed. having said this, i would prefer hubbie to stick with one brand of speakers and as we have already committed to 705s and aws750, b&w fronts would be preferred.

the brystons pump out 300watts per channel so i think i should be able to drive any of these combinations comfortably.

please keep the comments coming as this is a big investment for us and although we will ultimately make the final decisions, it's alway good to call on other people's expertise, regardless of whether we know them personally or not

cheers,

julie

[dknightd]

703's are IMO a little on the bright side. Probably not a good match for a hard clinical room.

[perato]

Or you could buy an HTM7 for center channel and either a pair of 705 or a pair of 704 for front mains. You already have 705 with a subwoofer. I would suggest examining them to find out if you think they are lacking in some way. Also, examine the frequency response of your system using a CD with test frequencies (you can buy one or make your own) and a sound level meter. That will also tell you what problems you have and what you should look for in your mains and center.

If your subwoofer integrates well with your 705, do you think they are still lacking in some way? If so, try to get a refund and start over, if not your choice should be between 705 and 704 for mains with HTM7 for center.

If you listen to multichannel audio, such as SACD and DVD-A, you might find a mismatch between speakers that have FST midrange driver and ones that do not. The only way to know is to compare an FST to a non-FST (e.g. 703 vs. 704) to see what you think the difference is.

I have 705/HTM7/DS7/ASW650 and they work adequately for home-theater and reasonably for two channel music.

[Nolan B]

vancouver, our plasma is wall mounted and you may recall i've started many threads in the past about fpm's, in ceiling and boston p series speakers but now that we have purchased the amps, we are very keen to buy speakers that will do them justice.

yes i remember. I have heard FPMs and the similar Vienna Accustics hooked up to Classe, Rotel RSX 1067 and RMB 1077 and they are nothing to shake a stick at. It is very true however they wont due total justice for top of the line amps.

Have you considered the XT4s? I have been reading very good reviews when powered right and they have a great look to them.

on a side not with regards to a sub. I too put money and value aside when buying things that look good...i often wonder and have considered adding 2 more PV1 Subs to make 3 and line up against my wall. That would look amazing and im sure would sound...at least good?!

[Briz vegas]

I did a little listening evaluation today between the 805 and 804. Of the two I preferred the 804, as you would expect. I wanted to be happy with the 805 but the 804 was more convincing and made me focus on the music rather than the speakers. After listening to the 804 the 805 sounded too 705ish. That being said, I am happy with the sound from the705/htm7 when it comes to movies.

The only reason I am considering spending what I consider to be BIG BIG dollars on new speakers is for 2 channel listening. (I could never tell anyone I know I was considering spending $8K Aussie dollars on speakers - they would have me committed - unfortunately one or two of my friends are qualified to do just that). On the other hand you have spent a mint on your amplification so maybe the extra dollars for the 804 are not a big deal.

I can't see you actually sticking with 70/30 HT use. I have recently started listening to classical music, something I never quite "got" in the past. Listening to the Mozart Requiem on the 804s I could hear why some folk love the stuff. I reckon if you get the 804s you will suddenly discover that music beats movies any day (as much as I also love movies). You will have a fabulous sounding system.

happy buying

[Bluespower]

I just brought home a pair of 804s Friday. This was an upgrade from my 603 S3s. If someone asked me if they're 4 times as good (based on cost) I'd have to say no. Are they worth it to me... YES. The tweeter is phemoninal, they sound great right out of the box, and I know they're only going to get better. It's your call, but I would encourage you to put them towards the top of your short list.