B&W 803 soundstage imaging - is it an amp/speakers/room acoustics issue ?

[Eliav]

Hi
I have been trying for three weeks to get some "rear-to front" depth with my system - without great results, is it my rotel 1095 ? my B&W803s ( no, not these guys....!), or my room acoustics?
I hear great open sound which is very wide( side to side) however, there is no depth, almost everything sounds front staged, some "backstaged" sounds are always either left or right side oriented , no true "center rear ".
My speakers are 4 feet away from the rear wall and 2 feet off the side walls, and about 10 feet apart.
Anybody's experience /advice ?

Thanks
Eliav

[RobP]

Anyway we could get some pics or a drawing of your room? If you make a drawing be sure to include any items in the room. Maybe we can tell then.

[xk8boy]

Eliav, the 803S are decent size(physically) floor standing speakers. To get the best out of them you need to play them loud. On my 802D I have to push the speakers fairly hard. When I first started breaking-in the speakers i did not play them too loud, and like you i found the sound stage coming from behind the speakers. But now, I finding myself turning up the volumn.

[caleb]

IMHO your imaging is more likely to be speaker placement than anything else.

Maybe they are just a bit too far apart, but the drawing of your room should shed somelight .

[Eliav]

Thanks guys
i will upload a drawing of my room later on today. The current placement of my speaker is where I find the best bass production which is very tight and clear,I am however always happy to explore more about my speakers...
BTW, I did not find any difference in soundstage imaging playing the speakers loud or low, either way they sound wide but with no image depth.
Eliav

[PewterTA]

Are you sitting in your sweet spot, about equi-distant from each speaker and slightly toed in? That could make a difference.

[RJW1138]

Personally, I would try moving them further in from the side walls. If they were 3 feet from the sides, they'd still be 8 feet apart, which should still be adequate. Yes, you want them to spaced out as much as possible from each other without losing your centre image, but I think that at 2 feet, they are just too close to a reflecting boundary.

Of course, your listening position should be at the third point of the equilateral triangle formed by your speakers. Are you following this basic guideline?

[Eliav]

Hi
Thanks again to all of you.
Yes I am keeping the 60 degree triangle between my listening spot and the speakers.
The reason I went so far toward the side walls is to get a decent bass response, prior to this arrangement the 803s were about 4 feet away from the side walls and sounded flat with poor bass.
I attached a photo of my room, one photo is looking at the speakers, the other is the right speaker's view ( looking at my listening spot). Room size is 20x15 feet.

Appreciate your input
Eliav

[RJW1138]

Well, that's no surprise. The reason you were getting poor bass at 4 feet from the side walls is because this was the exact same distance as the distance to your front wall. If the difference between these distances is not greater than at least 33%, you're asking for huge mode problems (cancellations and reinforcements in the bass frequencies). Since frequency response is obviously just as important as soundstaging, you don't want to be making any gross mistakes in this respect.

I would suggest placing the speakers 3 feet from the side walls, and then bringing them forward more to at least 5 feet from the front wall. I think that this setup may give you better frequency response than what you currently have, and may improve your soundstaging problem. The biggest offender in your soundstaging problem is probably that huge flat reflecting surface that you have, your TV. I think that the further you can move your speakers away from the plane of your TV, the better your front/back soundstaging will become. Try at least 5 feet from the wall, but really you should shoot for as much as possible. It looks like you have the room to move them more from what I can tell.

Now, are you talking about this problem with respect to surround sound, or 2-channel listening? If you're talking 2-channel, then I would definitely recommend throwing a big, soft blanket over that TV when you want to listen intently. This will help alleviate this reflection problem even more, and there's lots of evidence to support it. If you're talking surround sound with video, then you probably don't want to do this... :-P

[Eliav]

Hi RJW !
Thanks.
Actually I have the speakers 4 ft away from the rear and 2 ft away from the side. However, I will try the 5 feet away from rear and 3 feet away from side.
I had thoght about the TV as a potential problem but could not figure out what to do ( remove it ? .....)
I will try to cover it when listening to 2 channel ( about 70% of my listening time).
I will keep the forum posted.
I am certainly open to more suggestions !
Thanks again
Eliav

[Aussie Geoff]

Eliav,

A further thought is that the extra detail that creates the sense of depth in a sound stage requires high quality source, cables and amplification... A common issue in HT systems is that all these are compromised, resulting in sub-optimal stereo...

So for example:
What is your source (model DVD or CD player and how is it connected)
Are you running in pure stereo mode
Do you have the B&W's bi-wired...

I also know that the RMB-1095 will be a limited factor. They can generate a degree of 3D soundstage, but better amps certainly resolve more and create a more vivid 3D effect...

Geoff

[greggz]

This is a guide to speaker placement in a rectangular room...

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

...but I think your issue is mostly related to all the reflective surfaces you have in that room (walls, picture glass, wood furniture, leather furniture).

You need absorption on that wall behind your front speakers and maybe to the sides (I cant really tell where the drapes are relative to a primary reflection point to your listening position, but they may be sufficient.)

Leather furniture makes good bass traps but is reflective of high frequencies. Try adding some decorative throw pillows and blankets over the backs of the sofa to tame the highs.

Lastly, if possible, I'd try and do bookshelves with lots of varying books, CD's, DVD's, etc... across that back wall to create diffusion.

(Oh, and you might consider trying the center channel speaker on top of the TV rather than in front of it because you are getting an immediate reflection off that TV stand and the TV glass.)

[Eliav]

Hey Geoff
my source is a rotel 1060 dvd player, the processor is Rotel 1068. The B&W are biwired. the processor is set on a stereo, analog, bypass mode. I am using audioquest cables and AQ copperhead interconnections. I have read almost everything written in English about Rotel 1095 and I do suspect that this is the weakest link here, however, I am trying to squeeze the best of this current setting, mainly by playing with room acoustics
Thanks
Eliav

[Eliav]

This is a guide to speaker placement in a rectangular room...

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

...but I think your issue is mostly related to all the reflective surfaces you have in that room (walls, picture glass, wood furniture, leather furniture).

You need absorption on that wall behind your front speakers and maybe to the sides (I cant really tell where the drapes are relative to a primary reflection point to your listening position, but they may be sufficient.)

Leather furniture makes good bass traps but is reflective of high frequencies. Try adding some decorative throw pillows and blankets over the backs of the sofa to tame the highs.

Lastly, if possible, I'd try and do bookshelves with lots of varying books, CD's, DVD's, etc... across that back wall to create diffusion.

(Oh, and you might consider trying the center channel speaker on top of the TV rather than in front of it because you are getting an immediate reflection off that TV stand and the TV glass.)

Thanks Gregg
i actually thoght of removing some stuff AWAY from my room. such as the leather recliner. do you think re-arranging the room in a more symmetrical distribution of the leather seats should make a sonic difference? ( it will for my wife....)
thanks
Eliav

[Kobus]

How big a factor do you guys think the 1095 is playing in this?

[greggz]

How big a factor do you guys think the 1095 is playing in this?

Not much. You can take a $5,000 setup and put it in a properly treated room and it will sound dramatically better than a $25,000 setup in a poorly prepared room.

Ask anyone who has had their room professionally analyzed and treated and they will tell you that it was the single greatest improvement they could make in their system.

Take a look at this article for just one person's experience in treating their room...

http://206.225.87.49/volume_11_3/feature-secrets-lab-room-treatment-9-2004-part-1.html

(I'm in the same boat as most of you guys. If I stuck all that stuff on the walls and ceiling that this guy did my wife would kill me.) :nono:

[greggz]

p.s. If you are interested in finding someone in your area that does room analysis professionally, start with the HAA (Home Acoustic Alliance)

http://www.homeacoustics.net/

[Eliav]

This is a guide to speaker placement in a rectangular room...

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

...but I think your issue is mostly related to all the reflective surfaces you have in that room (walls, picture glass, wood furniture, leather furniture).

You need absorption on that wall behind your front speakers and maybe to the sides (I cant really tell where the drapes are relative to a primary reflection point to your listening position, but they may be sufficient.)

Leather furniture makes good bass traps but is reflective of high frequencies. Try adding some decorative throw pillows and blankets over the backs of the sofa to tame the highs.

Lastly, if possible, I'd try and do bookshelves with lots of varying books, CD's, DVD's, etc... across that back wall to create diffusion.

(Oh, and you might consider trying the center channel speaker on top of the TV rather than in front of it because you are getting an immediate reflection off that TV stand and the TV glass.)

Hey Gregg
The web site you have attached is great. I followed the formula and placed my speakers accordingly. I have never sat so close to my speakers before, it also looks quite strange having the speakers 6.7 feet AWAY from the rear wall..
as for the sound ; certainly more presence, more bass, more depth, the open side to side image is slightly reduced. It is certainly amazing to experience the huge influence room acoustics has on one's system.
What exactly does a 57" TV screen do to the sound ? I assume most of us has a TV screen somewhere around their speakers, do you all actually cover the screen when listening to music ?
Thanks so much again Gregg !!
Eliav