Just got my surrounds today!

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  • BlazeMaster
    Senior Member
    • May 2004
    • 644

    Just got my surrounds today!

    I finally picked my surrounds for the 5.1. I got a pair of DM600s to go with my 601s and LCR600s as fronts. The 600s are now wall mounted. I should of picked up spades connections instead of bananas since I can't get them to closer to wall due to the extra space needed for bananas. So instead of plugging the bananas straight in, I have the go thru the hole when you loosen the caps a little bit. When I go right next to the speaker while playing LOTR, I noticed that the music coming out of them are not as smooth, sounds like there is little pause coming from the trebles and midrange. I'm using different speaker length for them, left side uses 40ft and the right side uses 30ft. The salesperson told me 10 ft difference is ok. I can hear the "pauses" from where I'm sitting at, only when I get close to the speaker. Is this something I should worry about?
  • Aussie Geoff
    Super Senior Member
    • Oct 2003
    • 1914

    #2
    Blazemaster,

    Your problem won't be the difference in speaker cable length. However putting banana plugs through the side of the speaker terminals is not a good idea - you may be getting an intermittent connection and (as you point out) at the very least it is making mounting your speakers more difficult. Try removing the Banana plugs and just using twisted bare speaker wire - you will get a better connection anyway!

    Geoff

    Comment

    • jlee
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2004
      • 337

      #3
      Spade connections do indeed make an audible improvement over bananas unless the bananas are really good locking bananas... even then, locking bananas are not standardized and if their "starting" size is not really close to the terminal diameter, then when they expand, only their "tips" are touching and this results in degraded sound, most notably reduced treble clarity and fine detail. Since I made that comparison, I've used nothing but angled spades for all my speaker connections. I would not go with bare wire... it will eventually oxidize... at least with spades, most speaker cables have shrink tube over the connections which at least greatly slows the oxidization process, if not make it negligible.

      Depending on the quality of the cable, 10ft can make a difference... I've experimented with midgrade cables... they sounded "acceptable" at 8ft... sounded TERRIBLE at 20ft... with the high end cables I have now, whether they are 8ft or 33ft sounds virtually indistinguishable. The 33ft sounds better than the midgrade 8ft cables...

      Depending on what cable you are using, the 30ft is probably already degraded enough such that going to 40ft probably doesn't make it any worse... so I agree with Geoff that the problem is probably in that banana connection.

      Comment

      • sikoniko
        Super Senior Member
        • Aug 2003
        • 2299

        #4
        Hey now! my MIT bi-wires use banana's and I guarantee that I have no audio degredation due to it!
        I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

        Comment

        • Aussie Geoff
          Super Senior Member
          • Oct 2003
          • 1914

          #5
          Sikoniko,

          I use banana plugs myself - but the problem here sounds like that they are being inserted sideways through the speaker terminals where bare wire should go.... In which case spades are best and failing that bare wire. Certainly bare wire will be a quick check to see if the problem goes away...

          Geoff

          Comment

          • jlee
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2004
            • 337

            #6
            >Hey now! my MIT bi-wires use banana's and I guarantee that I have no audio degredation due to it!

            I should have said that bananas aren't inherently inferior to spade connections... it's just that as a tension fit plug, over the course of time and many uses, the tension may not be as tight as when new... and therefore the connection may not be as good, which MAY lead to sound degradation, albeit MINOR.... After a few hours of A/B testing that I did, I found the minor difference significant enough to bother me, and to me, this minor difference was worth changing everything to spades. With spades you always have a lot of contact surface and all that surface is being clamped on by the terminal on the amp or speaker... whereas with the banana, it's plug dependent. There are some very good locking bananas out there (WBT, Furutech come to mind) that will eliminate this problem, but even some locking bananas out there sound terrible because only the tips are making the connection.

            Another interesting note... I own the 705's (and the old 1NT's before that) and the Nautilus 800 series... if you check closely, the 700 series speaker terminals are 0.5mm smaller than the 800 series... SO.... with the locking banana plugs I was testing, they were a nice tight fit in the 700 even before locking... and then with locking, were great... on the 800, the bananas fitted loose to begin with and only the tips expanded to touch it... so with the 700, there was no degradation in sound... only the 800... so I guess it depends on the speaker too. The same will apply on the amp side.

            Comment

            • BlazeMaster
              Senior Member
              • May 2004
              • 644

              #7
              problem is, I don't think these are necessary bad cables. I had my dealer terminate them for me. 70ft together for both sides and it was about $150. And the cables that they terminate for me aren't refundable, so can I ask them to take out the bananas and put on spades instead? I have the Denon 2805...does it support the spades? I've never used spades connections before and I have a feeling that it's going to make the amp side even more crowded with cables than it already is.

              Comment

              • Aussie Geoff
                Super Senior Member
                • Oct 2003
                • 1914

                #8
                Blaze Master,

                so can I ask them to take out the bananas and put on spades instead?
                Absolutely - and this shoud not cost much (say $5-10 per Spade for very good quality spades..

                Geoff

                Comment

                • jlee
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2004
                  • 337

                  #9
                  1 more thing... to ensure fitment on almost any amp or speaker with almost any configuration, always get ANGLED (45 deg. is perfect) spades... if you get straight spades, you often run into racks, power cords, fuse caps, other spades, etc. On the SCM1, if you get straight spades, it will be very difficult to attach them... and depending on how "stiff" the wire cable is, can be even more of a problem.

                  Comment

                  • Woo Wooooo
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2004
                    • 177

                    #10
                    Maybe it's.............

                    never mind sorry
                    Last edited by Woo Wooooo; 31 October 2004, 12:00 Sunday. Reason: wrong person to reply to...........

                    Comment

                    • sikoniko
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 2299

                      #11
                      Originally posted by jlee
                      >

                      I should have said that bananas aren't inherently inferior to spade connections... it's just that as a tension fit plug, over the course of time and many uses, the tension may not be as tight as when new... and therefore the connection may not be as good, which MAY lead to sound degradation, albeit MINOR.... After a few hours of A/B testing that I did, I found the minor difference significant enough to bother me, and to me, this minor difference was worth changing everything to spades. With spades you always have a lot of contact surface and all that surface is being clamped on by the terminal on the amp or speaker... whereas with the banana, it's plug dependent.
                      That may be the case under most circumstances, however, my MIT's are pre-made lengths and tipped and the end you chose screws on at the end. They fit quite snuggly into my 800 series speakers.
                      I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                      Comment

                      • jlee
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2004
                        • 337

                        #12
                        >That may be the case under most circumstances, however, my MIT's are pre-made lengths and tipped and the end you chose screws on at the end. They fit quite snuggly into my 800 series speakers.

                        If they fit quite snuggly into your 800 speakers, then they must be a SUPER tight fit (or may not even fit) into 700 series speakers. The speaker companies should standardize the diameters of the holes so the cable companies can standardize the diameters of the plugs!

                        Cheers.

                        Comment

                        • BlazeMaster
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2004
                          • 644

                          #13
                          I just got back from my dealer and had them put on spades on the speaker end of the cables. Honestly, I'm not sure if the "pauses" are still there, since I watched Ice Age last night for the first time and didn't notice the "pause" anymore. I did get some news about B&Ws new 800s line though. The salesman said he talked to a B&W rep recently and he was told that they would be out in about 2 months. The B&W rep were very secretive and only stated that it will have new and improved drivers.
                          Last edited by BlazeMaster; 01 November 2004, 01:38 Monday.

                          Comment

                          • Aussie Geoff
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 1914

                            #14
                            Blazemaster,

                            Cool! :T

                            The new drivers message is consistent with the feedback I got and posted HERE.

                            I'd heard 2005 - however what is new is the 2 months - I guess that could just scrape into January 2005! I hope they are right.. I could do with a 803 S2

                            Geoff

                            Comment

                            • jlee
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2004
                              • 337

                              #15
                              Any word on an FST version of the SCM1? Or will it be all the same cabinets just improved drivers like they did with the Signature 805? I was going to uggrade to the 803, but now I'm going to wait. Hopefully I won't have to upgrade my HTM1 and SCM1 to match as well.

                              Comment

                              • sikoniko
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Aug 2003
                                • 2299

                                #16
                                While it would be nice to get into the new series, I hope they don't come out so soon. I don't want to feel rushed to purchase my scm1's, and then be disappointed knowing that the newer and better stuff is out right after I finish putting my system together. I want my speakers to be all in the same series for timbre matching. it would really drive me crazy if my rear speakers were even better than my mains...

                                I understand such is life, and even though the nautilus s1 has been out awhile, for my own sake, I'd like to think I have the best of what I could afford that is available. I know I've said a lot of things and haven't been able to make up my mind yet, I really can't afford to do anymore past buying these SCM1's. It would give me a little piece of mind to at least have them for another year before the latest and greatest comes out.
                                I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                Comment

                                • DrBoom
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2003
                                  • 325

                                  #17
                                  An FST version of the SCM1 (or 805 for that matter) would mean that they would have to squeeze in at least 1 bass driver, because the FST obviously can't handle that.
                                  That would make the cabinet a lot larger, and would kinda ruin the whole purpose of the small, flat, wallmount speaker.
                                  Maybe they'll come up with something like it, but as an addition to the series, not a replacement.
                                  Much like the rumours (actually they're more than rumours already) of the upcoming $7000 (huge) centerspeaker to accompany the 802, 801 and 800 speakers.
                                  For the new 800 series I have no clue what to expect, exept "unvisible" upgrades like new drivers and crossovers.
                                  I hope they don't mess around with the looks too much, don't see how they could improve on those

                                  Comment

                                  • sikoniko
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 2299

                                    #18
                                    DrBoom,

                                    what have you heard or seen about that new center?
                                    I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                    Comment

                                    • jlee
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2004
                                      • 337

                                      #19
                                      1. >they'll come up with something like it, but as an addition to the series, not a replacement.

                                      Right, an addition not replacement. I think they could still make it relatively flat, just a bit taller... if you look closely at the 805 dimensions, you'll see it is identical to the 804 except in height... so the 2 possible configurations I see are:

                                      A. Same basic shape SCM1, just taller with either the same FST as the rest... or a 5" scaled down version of it.
                                      B. Same basic shape as the 805, just taller to accodomate the FST... kinda like a chopped off closed box 804... they could get rid of the port in the 805 to make room for the 1 extra driver. This could still be made small and light enough to be wall mountable.

                                      -----------------------------------
                                      2. And yes, please don't change the look B&W!!!
                                      3. It's about time they came out for a dedicated center to match the 802, 801, and 800... the HTM1 is perfect for 803 and 804 but becomes the weak link starting at the 802.

                                      Comment

                                      • BlazeMaster
                                        Senior Member
                                        • May 2004
                                        • 644

                                        #20
                                        My salesperson told me that the improved the 800s line could be very different to the current line. He's not sure if it'll even have the curved cabinet design, same model #s. He does know for sure that the drivers will be changed. And the main purpose for this change is to make the difference between similar sized 700s and 800s series speakers more significant. He actually told me this out of nowhere when I was comparing the difference between the 705 and 805, and I told him that the difference is so small... He assured me that the newer 800s bookshelves will sound alot better than the 705s and that I should wait for it to come out. He said it'll be out in the next couple months, and a slight chance that it might be out just before Christmas. He also told me that when the new 800s come out, the older 800s will not be available anymore.
                                        skoniko, here's another way of looking at it: when the newer 800s come out, the SCM1 that your're planning on getting will not be available and make it a "limited edition" thing.

                                        Comment

                                        • DrBoom
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2003
                                          • 325

                                          #21
                                          Sikoniko, I assume the alleged "big" 800 series centerspeaker will be based on the 802.
                                          Including the Marlan head, and the same drivers as the 802.
                                          This will make it pretty huge, probably somewhere around 90cm - 1m wide and depending on the type of cabinet around 40-50 kg's (guessing) since the 802 weighs a hefty 70 kg's.
                                          Price is also more or less known, around $7000 per piece, not exactly cheap but it's kinda the same story as with the HTM1.
                                          I haven't got any official confirmation, but I asked a B&W sales rep about it at a local hifi show, and he became very quiet all of a sudden
                                          They sure do like to keep things secret for as long as possible at B&W.

                                          Comment

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