designing small speakers for near field listening (e.g., desktop)

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  • JonW
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 1582

    designing small speakers for near field listening (e.g., desktop)

    For my next project I’m thinking about making some rather small speakers for use in an office-based system. Maximum size on the order of ~6.5” wide x 10” tall x 8” deep. And try to make as high end of a design as possible with low distortion and such. Given that the listener will be closer to the speakers than is typical, there are some design considerations that may need to be accounted for. So I’m hoping to get a discussion going on the topic of near field, small speakers.

    Some of the considerations that I’ve been thinking about so far…

    -Near field: Let’s say the listener will be about 3 feet/1 meter from the speakers. We don’t want to hear the tweeter and woofer separately, as we move our heads. And that might be an issue with “regular sized” speakers (e.g., 7” woofer and tweeter with a 4” flange = 11” height the sound comes from) at such close distances. So the total area of the tweeter and woofer should be small. For a reference, I am currently using these computer speakers from Klipsch:
    Home Audio Products for Every Lifestyle, Application & Budget. Since 1946, no compromises in Legendary Sound. Free Shipping on All Online Orders in the US.

    Quite good for what they are and what they cost. From the top of the tweeter to the bottom of the woofer is about 5”. The 2 drivers blend together well. So that gives some idea of a tweeter + woofer height/size that can work.

    -Overall design: An MT. The size probably limits us to an MT, 2-way. Alternatively we could use teeny (e.g., 3”) drivers in an MTM. But there are more options for higher quality drivers if we go to bigger M’s so let’s say it will be MT.

    -Tweeter: Pick one with a small flange. Something with a diameter of, say, ~2” rather than the more typical ~4” of most tweeters. Many such tweeters exist. The problem here is that there are few small flanged tweeters of very high quality/low distortion, etc. (Vifa says the D26 is discontinued so I’m leaving that out.)

    -Woofer: Small is better for these small sized speakers and we want all the sound coming from a smaller area. But then bass extension suffers. We just need to get down low enough to match with a sub. After some modeling I did, let’s say a woofer of about 5” would be good. Lots of options for high quality woofers of this size.

    -Overall size: With a 5” woofer (plus flange and space to tweeter, call it 6”) and a 2” tweeter, all the sound could be coming from an area about 8” tall. Add some wood on the top and bottom, edge treatments, etc. and you get a minimum height of around 9-10”. And a minimum width of 6.5-7” to accommodate the woofer.

    -Coaxial drivers can be a consideration. All the sound coming from a relatively small area. But I’m not aware of any really high quality coaxial to compete with high quality “regular” drivers. And my guess is that coaxials will have various issues, with the woofer moving in and out so much while the tweeter is trying to do its thing.

    -Full range drivers could be good for this application. If there were any really good ones available. But the crossover industry is still going strong.

    -Bass extension. With such small speakers there is going to be a definite need for a sub. So the speakers need to have flat output down to ~80 Hz.

    -Port: If one is used it will have to be in the front. Because speakers like this will most often be pushed up against a wall or shelf. Slot ports might look prettier than a circular port on the front baffle.

    -Crossover: I read somewhere (forgetting where) that near field speakers should use second- or fourth-order Linkwitz-Riley crossovers. But I didn’t see any explanation as to why.

    -Baffle step compensation: Just take into account that the speakers will often be up against a wall. Take the raw driver measurements accordingly.

    OK, that’s what I’ve got for design considerations so far. Feel free to chime in.
  • Carl V
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2005
    • 269

    #2
    there are lots of things to consider.

    I'm no expert but I'd be inclined to mimic Mr Carver's new Cube.
    A large front firing Ribbon with Midwoofer & drones.

    Or take a page form Allison acoustics & SL Pluto.
    Nice robust front firing tweeter & an up firinng woofer.

    Another more ambitious idea might be a very small 3/4 neo
    tweeter mated to a Dome mid (Morel or Dayton) wtih again
    an upfiring midwofer....or the midwoofer/drone. Moving XO
    to a sep. enclosure will help. Making use of a subwoofer obviously
    helps as well.

    Don't overlook sgl. drivers...I've had nice results with TG drivers,
    CSS FR line~ wdeband & Jordan drivers.

    Comment

    • fourdegrees11
      Junior Member
      • Aug 2008
      • 13

      #3
      Maybe a Peerless Nomex, with a Morel MDT 44? both are trunctuated which would allow very close proximity.
      AKA - Jay1

      http://jaysspeakerpage.weebly.com/

      Comment

      • chasw98
        Super Senior Member
        • Jan 2006
        • 1360

        #4
        Oh boy, he finishes one project and he's off and running to the next one! When will it end?

        You might want to start researching high end coaxial drivers. There are some very well regarded units available. A 6.5" driver with a high frequency transducer mounted in the center might be just what would satisfy your design priorities.

        What size are you thinking for the sub? 8 inch or 12 inch driver in compact cabinet. A good plate amplifier (Oaudio 500 watt) would make for a very compact unit. You would not need to find an exotic amp that has multiple channels or built in crossovers by going that route.

        Just some thoughts to chew on in your spare time.

        Chuck

        Comment

        • ---k---
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Nov 2005
          • 5202

          #5
          Chuck,
          When you read between the lines of a couple of posts, it looks like he is noodling over 2 new designs - a small desktop for the office and a 3-way where he is worried about where to put the woofer.

          Looks like this place has created a monster.
          - Ryan

          CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
          CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
          CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

          Comment

          • eyekode
            Member
            • Jun 2008
            • 45

            #6
            Summing in the near field seems to be the main issue.
            The one thing going for you is that you are making music for one. So you don't need a very wide sound field.

            I like either a fullrange speaker (who cares if you are beaming if you need a narrow sound field) or the upfiring woofer/midrange (omnidirectional).

            Comment

            • Operandi
              Senior Member
              • May 2007
              • 145

              #7
              A 2.5 way should also be a viable nearfield option. Its been a bit of a longer process than I had initially thought but I'm working a 2.5 way version of RJB's Microbe SE (RS150 & RS28A) that will be used in the same application.

              I also considered the Seas Coax but the only design I knew of is the Madisound Loki kit and there didn't seem to be much feedback on that design, or the driver itself for that matter (at the time). Zaph has since tested the driver and it seems like the results are pretty positive. It is a 7" driver however.

              For full range Jed's F4 sounds really nice but I suppose that design has already been done .

              Comment

              • James9934
                Junior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1

                #8
                I'm new to the whole DIY world but am very intrigued in getting started with a build of my own. Your post caught my eye because I have those very same klipsch speakers for my computer desk at work. I think they sound fantastic for what they cost me. Since I am new and have never built a speaker myself, are you looking to make something that plays louder or cleaner for less money? I only ask this because these play way louder than i could ever use them for at work and they sound great with whatever I play through them.

                Thanks,
                James
                ----------------
                Looking to replace a Bose Acoustimass system from 1992 ops:

                Comment

                • pedroskova
                  Member
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 35

                  #9
                  I know that you spec'd an MT design, but my first thought was a coaxial solution...maybe one of the ceiling speakers from the PA mfg's, like Radian - not cheap, but well-regarded.

                  Comment

                  • DS-21
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 171

                    #10
                    I'd go augmented wideband. Vifa TG9 (phenomenal little driver) with a sidefiring Peerless SLS8 underneath it. If it's near a wall, the sensitivities should match up just fine.

                    Comment

                    • MuaDibb
                      Member
                      • Oct 2006
                      • 94

                      #11
                      I thought this thread would get more discussion than it has so far.........

                      Just how different is the nearfield, as opposed to listening to speakers 10 feet away? Are there things you can "get away with" in the nearfield that you can't do at normal listening distances? Conversely, is there anything that is a "no-no" in the nearfield that you normally do with a regular setup?

                      As far as measuring goes, would you want to measure at the listening distance? would you measure the speaker from where it will be placed, or out in the room like a normal measurement?
                      Ultimately all things are known because we want to believe we know.

                      Zensunni Wanderer

                      Comment

                      • ocool_15
                        Junior Member
                        • Dec 2007
                        • 5

                        #12
                        How come you feel you need a small flange tweeter when something like a seas 27tdfc or 27tbfc/g would allow a much lower crossover point? I would think that should offset the larger center to center distance.

                        Comment

                        • JonW
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 1582

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Carl V
                          there are lots of things to consider.

                          I'm no expert but I'd be inclined to mimic Mr Carver's new Cube.
                          A large front firing Ribbon with Midwoofer & drones.

                          Or take a page form Allison acoustics & SL Pluto.
                          Nice robust front firing tweeter & an up firinng woofer.

                          Another more ambitious idea might be a very small 3/4 neo
                          tweeter mated to a Dome mid (Morel or Dayton) wtih again
                          an upfiring midwofer....or the midwoofer/drone. Moving XO
                          to a sep. enclosure will help. Making use of a subwoofer obviously
                          helps as well.

                          Don't overlook sgl. drivers...I've had nice results with TG drivers,
                          CSS FR line~ wdeband & Jordan drivers.

                          Hi Carl. Thanks for the ideas. I hadn’t thought about an upfiring woofer. I’ll be at the Iowa DIY meet next month. So I’ll get to hear Dan’s omnidirectionals. I gather that lots of people like them. So that will be interesting. Never having heard anything like that, I’ve been biased, not necessarily correctly, toward more classical front firing MT designs.

                          Yes, this application could use a 3/4” tweeter more easily than many other projects. And a sub is definitely in order.

                          Originally posted by fourdegrees11
                          Maybe a Peerless Nomex, with a Morel MDT 44? both are trunctuated which would allow very close proximity.
                          Yes, they look good. But I’m going to limit my choices to drivers for which we can see third party distortion measurements. Otherwise you are just buying based on a name or price. And as I found out here a $200 small Scanspeak tweeter is not necessarily better than a small seas at $32.:
                          DIY (Do it yourself): Cabinetry, speakers, subwoofers, crossovers, measurements. Jon and Thomas have probably designed and built as many speakers as any non-professionals. Who are we kidding? They are pros, they just don't do it for a living. This has got to be one of the most advanced places on the net to talk speaker building, period.


                          Originally posted by ocool_15
                          How come you feel you need a small flange tweeter when something like a seas 27tdfc or 27tbfc/g would allow a much lower crossover point? I would think that should offset the larger center to center distance.
                          Sorry for the misunderstanding. The small flanged tweeter is needed here only because the ~9-10” maximum height of the cabinet will not fit a ~5.5” woofer (needs to play low enough to reach the sub) and a ~4” tweeter. The goal here is to make high end speakers that can be placed on a desk or on a shelf nearby. As much as I may want to do it, regular MT’s like the Modulas are just too big for an office system. And possibly not good for near field. (I’d like to know if that’s that case or not.)


                          Originally posted by James9934
                          I'm new to the whole DIY world but am very intrigued in getting started with a build of my own. Your post caught my eye because I have those very same klipsch speakers for my computer desk at work. I think they sound fantastic for what they cost me. Since I am new and have never built a speaker myself, are you looking to make something that plays louder or cleaner for less money? I only ask this because these play way louder than i could ever use them for at work and they sound great with whatever I play through them.

                          Thanks,
                          James
                          Hi James. Welcome to htguide. I agree that the Klipsch speakers are excellent for the price and size. Quite impressive, actually. Why try to improve on them? Well, I’m at work in front of my computer, with music playing, maybe 70 hours each week. Sometimes more than that. I just finished building some really nice speakers for at home. But I listen to much more music while at work. So the office is due for a speaker upgrade. Let’s see how big of an upgrade is possible based on a size constraint of around 7”wide x 10” high x 8 deep. I’m not sure if there is demand for such a design (beyond my own), but if there is that will influence my tweeter choice. I’ll post more on that in a minute.
                          Last edited by theSven; 04 May 2023, 16:06 Thursday. Reason: Update htguide url

                          Comment

                          • JonW
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 1582

                            #14
                            Originally posted by chasw98
                            Oh boy, he finishes one project and he's off and running to the next one! When will it end?

                            Originally posted by ---k---
                            Chuck,
                            When you read between the lines of a couple of posts, it looks like he is noodling over 2 new designs - a small desktop for the office and a 3-way where he is worried about where to put the woofer.

                            Looks like this place has created a monster.




                            Yeah, I’m thinkin’ up 2 high end designs: A small desktop speaker and an all-out 3-way. Probably the small speaker will happen first.



                            Originally posted by chasw98
                            You might want to start researching high end coaxial drivers. There are some very well regarded units available. A 6.5" driver with a high frequency transducer mounted in the center might be just what would satisfy your design priorities.

                            What size are you thinking for the sub? 8 inch or 12 inch driver in compact cabinet. A good plate amplifier (Oaudio 500 watt) would make for a very compact unit. You would not need to find an exotic amp that has multiple channels or built in crossovers by going that route.

                            Just some thoughts to chew on in your spare time.

                            Chuck
                            Zaph tested one of the better known coax’s recently. The distortion looked pretty good but the frequency response plot was horrid. I’m still sticking with drivers that we can see the distortion. For the sub it will likely be a 12” of around 2 cubic feet volume. I might be able to squeeze in a 15” driver if there is a compelling reason to do so.

                            Comment

                            • JonW
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 1582

                              #15
                              Originally posted by eyekode
                              Summing in the near field seems to be the main issue.
                              The one thing going for you is that you are making music for one. So you don't need a very wide sound field.

                              I like either a fullrange speaker (who cares if you are beaming if you need a narrow sound field) or the upfiring woofer/midrange (omnidirectional).
                              I’ll get to hear an upfiring woofer next month, so that should be interesting. I don’t know about full range drivers… I’m not convinced. Having a separate T and W will allow them each to do what they do well…



                              Originally posted by Operandi
                              A 2.5 way should also be a viable nearfield option. Its been a bit of a longer process than I had initially thought but I'm working a 2.5 way version of RJB's Microbe SE (RS150 & RS28A) that will be used in the same application.

                              I also considered the Seas Coax but the only design I knew of is the Madisound Loki kit and there didn't seem to be much feedback on that design, or the driver itself for that matter (at the time). Zaph has since tested the driver and it seems like the results are pretty positive. It is a 7" driver however.

                              For full range Jed's F4 sounds really nice but I suppose that design has already been done .
                              A friend made the Lokis and wasn’t too impressed. Not sure if a RS150 + RS28a would fit the size requirements. But 2 RS150’s certainly would not.



                              Originally posted by pedroskova
                              I know that you spec'd an MT design, but my first thought was a coaxial solution...maybe one of the ceiling speakers from the PA mfg's, like Radian - not cheap, but well-regarded.
                              Are there any distortion measurements available so that we can compare it to the other driver options?

                              If there was a really good coaxial out there I agree that it would be a good way to go. But I don’t know of any where they’re knownj to have low distortion, flattish frequency response, etc.


                              Originally posted by MuaDibb
                              I thought this thread would get more discussion than it has so far.........

                              Just how different is the nearfield, as opposed to listening to speakers 10 feet away? Are there things you can "get away with" in the nearfield that you can't do at normal listening distances? Conversely, is there anything that is a "no-no" in the nearfield that you normally do with a regular setup?
                              Good questions. I’d like to hear from the experts.


                              Originally posted by MuaDibb
                              As far as measuring goes, would you want to measure at the listening distance? would you measure the speaker from where it will be placed, or out in the room like a normal measurement?
                              Well, when you take the measurements, you usually do it at about 1 meter anyways. You can’t get much farther away than that due to room bounce, etc. So as far as the measurements go it would be pretty standard. So I think that makes thing somewhat simple.

                              Comment

                              • JonW
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 1582

                                #16
                                OK, let me ask you guys another question: If there was a high end, small MT design available, would any of you be interested in building it?

                                We’re talking maybe $700 for a pair of speakers in drivers and crossover parts. It's not going to be a cheap speaker. But possibly max performance given the size. Maximum dimensions around 7” wide x 10” tall x 8” deep. I might be able to get it down to 6.5 x 9.75 x 8. That doesn’t sound too small but compare it to a Modula MT, etc. which is huge in comparison, at over 4 times the volume.

                                The reason I ask is that I’m not sure which small flanged tweeter to use. The Vifa D26 looks to be the best choice in terms of performance. But it looks like it will soon be unavailable. Madisound still has some in stock. See this thread:
                                DIY (Do it yourself): Cabinetry, speakers, subwoofers, crossovers, measurements. Jon and Thomas have probably designed and built as many speakers as any non-professionals. Who are we kidding? They are pros, they just don't do it for a living. This has got to be one of the most advanced places on the net to talk speaker building, period.

                                Alternatively, the Vifa XT25SC50 looks like a good option. Also in stock but I don’t see it listed on the Vifa/Tymphany site. So it may not be around much longer either. (Unless the XT25SC50 is the same as the XT25SC90-04. They look the same but have different specs so I doubt they’re the same.)

                                So taking those 2 tweeters out of contention and the best choice would be the Seas 27TFFNCG. It’s still in production. But it’s a performance compromise over the 2 Vifas.

                                I could make better speakers for myself using the XT25 of D26. But the design would then not be of use to anyone else after those tweeters are gone. Or I could make the design with the 27TFFNCG. It might not sound as good but it will be available for other people to build for a longer period. Basically, I’m torn between selfish performance for myself versus giving back to the DIY community. :twisted: :B
                                Last edited by theSven; 04 May 2023, 16:07 Thursday. Reason: Update htguide url

                                Comment

                                • pedroskova
                                  Member
                                  • Mar 2007
                                  • 35

                                  #17
                                  Are there any distortion measurements available so that we can compare it to the other driver options?

                                  If there was a really good coaxial out there I agree that it would be a good way to go. But I don’t know of any where they’re knownj to have low distortion, flattish frequency response, etc.
                                  Naw, don't have the distortion spec's...only going by reputation (very highly regarded). Here's a link to the Radians...the 8" can be had for ~$200 a piece. They are probably overkill for your situation...5 watts input would get you >> 100 dB, but on a brighter note, your music would never, ever, suffer from thermal compression. :B

                                  If you're feeling particularly lazy, ~ $60 will get you their umpteenth generation x-over, which is also supposed to be very good.

                                  Comment

                                  • ---k---
                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2005
                                    • 5202

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by JonW
                                    OK, let me ask you guys another question: If there was a high end, small MT design available, would any of you be interested in building it?
                                    I found the LineUp D4 a bit expensive for the office at $300/pr. And my coworkers think I'm positively insane for spending $400 on an Outlaw receiver to power them. :shrug:

                                    When I'm at work, I need to be focusing on work, and not music. Anything that is going to sit on top of a desk with all the crap on my desk burying them is going to be severely compromised. Mine do sit across the room on a shelf, so not as bad. I probably should have built something much cheaper. But if I was going to build it I knew everyone would want to hear them and I wanted to impress them.
                                    - Ryan

                                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                    Comment

                                    • eyekode
                                      Member
                                      • Jun 2008
                                      • 45

                                      #19
                                      700$ for nearfield listening? Too rich for my blood. Get a good set of cans .

                                      If a simple fullrange is too simple something like an RS100 + ND20 would be cool. This could be done very small.

                                      Someone else mentioned "what you can get away with" in the near field. I would guess a higher crossover is what you can get away with.

                                      Comment

                                      • ---k---
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2005
                                        • 5202

                                        #20
                                        Jon,
                                        Did you catch Zaphs recent post hear about how the tweeters typically way outperform the mids/woofers, and that the tweeter won't distort until well after the mid/woofer, and therefore focusing on tweeter's distortion may be non-issue. I think he said something about not needing anything more than a $20 tweeter. I think he was exagerating to make a point, but it may be a good point.
                                        - Ryan

                                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                        Comment

                                        • Operandi
                                          Senior Member
                                          • May 2007
                                          • 145

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by JonW
                                          OK, let me ask you guys another question: If there was a high end, small MT design available, would any of you be interested in building it?

                                          We’re talking maybe $700 for a pair of speakers in drivers and crossover parts. It's not going to be a cheap speaker. But possibly max performance given the size. Maximum dimensions around 7” wide x 10” tall x 8” deep. I might be able to get it down to 6.5 x 9.75 x 8.
                                          I already have the drivers for my speaker. If I didn't I could foresee going into the $500 range for high-end nearfeild monitors since the majority of my music listening dose take place in front of the computer.

                                          I would consider $500 a lot for such a small speaker, even a very high-end one. Might ~$700 be past the point diminishing returns?

                                          Comment

                                          • JonW
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Jan 2006
                                            • 1582

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by pedroskova
                                            Naw, don't have the distortion spec's...only going by reputation (very highly regarded).
                                            OK, then I’ll let those pass. Don’t take it personally. But I’ve seen too much gear get hyped with or without good reason. I’ll stick to measurements. Some say I’m a snob. So be it.

                                            Originally posted by ---k---
                                            When I'm at work, I need to be focusing on work, and not music.
                                            When I’m doing serious reading or writing I also turn down/off the music. But I do have music playing while I’m doing other things. Junk work, I guess. Which seems to be a growing percentage of what I do. D’oh!


                                            Originally posted by ---k---
                                            Jon,
                                            Did you catch Zaphs recent post hear about how the tweeters typically way outperform the mids/woofers, and that the tweeter won't distort until well after the mid/woofer, and therefore focusing on tweeter's distortion may be non-issue. I think he said something about not needing anything more than a $20 tweeter. I think he was exagerating to make a point, but it may be a good point.
                                            No I didn’t see that. I couldn’t find it either. Can you show me the link? Thanks.

                                            Comment

                                            • JonW
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Jan 2006
                                              • 1582

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by eyekode
                                              700$ for nearfield listening? Too rich for my blood. Get a good set of cans .
                                              Originally posted by ---k---
                                              I found the LineUp D4 a bit expensive for the office at $300/pr.
                                              Originally posted by Operandi
                                              I would consider $500 a lot for such a small speaker, even a very high-end one. Might ~$700 be past the point diminishing returns?
                                              OK, thanks for the feedback, guys. That helps. Maybe I should not worry about the tweeter being available in the future, if no one else will build the speakers anyways.

                                              For what it’s worth, the $700/pair figure comes from a Scanspeak 5.5” woofer at ~$220, some small tweeter at ~$35, and ~$200 for the crossover. For me it’s not that big of a deal because it’s a project that will keep me off the streets for a while. For the speakers I just finished designing, the driver + crossover cost was ~$1400. That’s a lot for DIY designs, but it was my main hobby for 1.5 years. So it’s really not bad given how much time the expense is averaged over. And most importantly, the design goals are to make the best speaker possible, given constraints of size (in this case) or within an MT design (in the case of the recently completed speakers). You know, make excellent speakers the first time, thereby avoiding any itch to upgrade later.

                                              So if I don’t worry about other people building the speakers, I can consider the Vifa XT25SC50 and the D26. Tough call between the two. It looks like the XT25 has a little lower distortion where it counts and a flatter frequency response where it counts. But the D26 has a better CSD. I’m leaning toward the XT25. But still open to others. I wonder why the D26 was chosen over the XT25 in Jed’s Lineup and in Jon Marsh’s NeoD CC. Which tweeter to use… hmmm…

                                              Comment

                                              • LunarD
                                                Junior Member
                                                • Aug 2006
                                                • 16

                                                #24
                                                For your tweeter, I'll suggest the opposite from the others. If you aren't too concerned about the price and want the best, use the 6600s that you have already used for the Spassvogels. However, this will increase the height of the cabinet which you don't want.

                                                Also, if you ever got into multi-channel music, you could always make them rears for your Spassvogels.

                                                John

                                                Comment

                                                • JonW
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                  • 1582

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by LunarD
                                                  For your tweeter, I'll suggest the opposite from the others. If you aren't too concerned about the price and want the best, use the 6600s that you have already used for the Spassvogels. However, this will increase the height of the cabinet which you don't want.

                                                  Also, if you ever got into multi-channel music, you could always make them rears for your Spassvogels.

                                                  John
                                                  I know, I know. :W They would sound great, to be sure. But I'm really fighting with the size here. There are many reasons to let them get bigger- better tweeters, more bass, etc. But really, once it's more than 10" tall it's just too big for the office.

                                                  So the challenge is to make a top quality sounding speaker in a smallish box that people (or, at least, me) would feel comfortable having in the office and listening all day. I think the tweeter choice is down to the soon-to-disappear Vifa D26, the XT25SC50, or the still-in-production-but-not-as-good Seas 27TFFNCG.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Winter
                                                    Member
                                                    • Nov 2007
                                                    • 81

                                                    #26
                                                    Has anyone performed frequency response and distortion tests on the Vifa BC25SC55-04? It has the same face plate (pain in the butt) as the Vifa D26NC55. The BC25 now costs $13 to the D26 $37, so a test is worthwhile. I have LspCAD, so I can't perform distortion tests. Zaph tested the Vifa BC25SC06-04 due to its easy-to-work-with round faceplate.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonW
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                      • 1582

                                                      #27
                                                      Winter,

                                                      I just had a look at the usual places I go for distortion tests (Zaph, MarkK, Jed, JonMarsh) and didn't see any for that tweeter. The Seas 27TFFNC-CG has a similar face plate and Zaph tested it, in case that helps you any.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Winter
                                                        Member
                                                        • Nov 2007
                                                        • 81

                                                        #28
                                                        JonW,

                                                        I'm looking for a replacement for the Vifa D26NC55 due to its price increase from $22 to $37. I used the D26 in 7 pairs of speakers, but it is no longer an inexpensive tweeter. I still need a small faceplate (does not have to be the shape of the D26) with a less than a 60mm diameter cutout for the motor. The small round faceplate of the Vifa BC25SC06-04 is fine, but the BC25 does not have quite the performance of the D26. I still am considering the Vifa BC25SC06-04 though.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Jed
                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                          • Apr 2005
                                                          • 3617

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by JonW
                                                          I wonder why the D26 was chosen over the XT25 in Jed’s Lineup and in Jon Marsh’s NeoD CC. Which tweeter to use… hmmm…

                                                          The D26 is a better performer down to 2k than the small flange XT25. Though, now that over a year has passed, my recent designs use a version of the new double magnet XT25, which I tested on my DIY website.

                                                          I did a test of harmonic distortion for the new XT25 double magnet tweeter to see how it compares to the single magnet XT25. The advantages of this tweeter are shielding from the extra magnet, higher sensitivity, and great odd order harmonic distortion performance. Although the Vifa D26 holds its own from 2k on up. Any of these tweeters are a good choice. During the sweeps the double magnet XT25 sounded the least harsh- in subjective terms.





                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonW
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                            • 1582

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Winter
                                                            JonW,

                                                            I'm looking for a replacement for the Vifa D26NC55 due to its price increase from $22 to $37. I used the D26 in 7 pairs of speakers, but it is no longer an inexpensive tweeter. I still need a small faceplate (does not have to be the shape of the D26) with a less than a 60mm diameter cutout for the motor. The small round faceplate of the Vifa BC25SC06-04 is fine, but the BC25 does not have quite the performance of the D26. I still am considering the Vifa BC25SC06-04 though.
                                                            Hi Winter,

                                                            If you’re looking for a good performing, small tweeter that is cheaper than the D26 ($37) I might recommend the Seas 27TFFNCG at ~$32. If that’s too expensive, then I think the next options down are Vifa DQ25SC16-04 at $16 and the Aura NT1 at $9. For $9 the Aura looks like an incredible value. Likewise for the DQ25SC16-04.

                                                            An excellent source for comparing the properties of various tweeters:





                                                            Originally posted by Jed
                                                            The D26 is a better performer down to 2k than the small flange XT25. Though, now that over a year has passed, my recent designs use a version of the new double magnet XT25, which I tested on my DIY website.

                                                            I did a test of harmonic distortion for the new XT25 double magnet tweeter to see how it compares to the single magnet XT25. The advantages of this tweeter are shielding from the extra magnet, higher sensitivity, and great odd order harmonic distortion performance. Although the Vifa D26 holds its own from 2k on up. Any of these tweeters are a good choice. During the sweeps the double magnet XT25 sounded the least harsh- in subjective terms.
                                                            Hi Jed,

                                                            Very pretty looking speakers. :T

                                                            I took a much closer look at Zaph’s measurements of the D26 versus the small XT25 and, in the end, yeah, I guess I’d also pick the D26. It does look a little better.

                                                            The newer double magnet XT25 looks nice as well. But the flange is just too big when trying to make a speaker no taller than about 10” and with enough bass to reach down to a sub at almost ~80 Hz.

                                                            Given that my small speakers are going to be pretty expensive (~$700/pair) and are not likely to be built by anyone else, my current thought is to use the D26. Even if it will soon be unavailable.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonP
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Apr 2006
                                                              • 690

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by JonW
                                                              Hi Winter,

                                                              If you’re looking for a good performing, small tweeter that is cheaper than the D26 ($37) I might recommend the Seas 27TFFNCG at ~$32. If that’s too expensive, then I think the next options down are Vifa DQ25SC16-04 at $16 and the Aura NT1 at $9. For $9 the Aura looks like an incredible value. Likewise for the DQ25SC16-04.
                                                              Yeah, Zaph has been liking that DQ25, if I have my numbers straight.

                                                              If you feel bad that the NT1 is only $9, I went to Madisound a few days ago and found it's now $12.25... Well, at least it didn't go extinct like we all thought it did. Very nice tweeter, I built a pair of ZBM4's a little while back, and they do sound great...

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonW
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Jan 2006
                                                                • 1582

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by JonP
                                                                Yeah, Zaph has been liking that DQ25, if I have my numbers straight.

                                                                If you feel bad that the NT1 is only $9, I went to Madisound a few days ago and found it's now $12.25... Well, at least it didn't go extinct like we all thought it did. Very nice tweeter, I built a pair of ZBM4's a little while back, and they do sound great...
                                                                For $16 that DQ25 does look nice. But I'd be a big spender and bump up to the $32 Seas 27TFFNCG for the lower distortion.

                                                                One thing I forgot to mention about the Aura NT1 is that, like the D26, I'm not sure what the future availability looks like. It may be uncertain. But for all of a mere $12.15 it does performs really, really well. Distortion-wise it even looks to be in the range of the D26. Hmmm...

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Hdale85
                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                  • 16075

                                                                  #33
                                                                  I'd like some sort of mini array honestly like the one that was posted a while back but then the guy fell off the face of the earth before he posted all the details. Had like a plexi front on it and one of the drivers was OB. I would of course prefer it had a tweeter but really liked the design.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • ---k---
                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2005
                                                                    • 5202

                                                                    #34
                                                                    I wonder if some of the forum veterans can give perspective on how long drivers typically remain available. I really don't know. Computers and consumer electronics get replaced with updated models every year. Cars go 2-3 years w/ a minor update and 4-5 and are completely redesigned.

                                                                    I have no idea how long a typical drive remains on the market.
                                                                    - Ryan

                                                                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Hdale85
                                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                                      • 16075

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Well the RS drivers have been around quite a long time now. I think it mostly just depends. A lot of the seas offerings have been around quite a while as well.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JonP
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Apr 2006
                                                                        • 690

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by JonW
                                                                        For $16 that DQ25 does look nice. But I'd be a big spender and bump up to the $32 Seas 27TFFNCG for the lower distortion.

                                                                        One thing I forgot to mention about the Aura NT1 is that, like the D26, I'm not sure what the future availability looks like. It may be uncertain. But for all of a mere $12.15 it does performs really, really well. Distortion-wise it even looks to be in the range of the D26. Hmmm...
                                                                        And it has the added bonus of being really tiny, which would enable close CTC spacing.

                                                                        As you mentioned, being close to the speakers emphasizes the distance between the drivers... integration of the sound starts to be part of the picture, besides the crossover issues.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonW
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                                          • 1582

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by JonP
                                                                          And it has the added bonus of being really tiny, which would enable close CTC spacing.

                                                                          As you mentioned, being close to the speakers emphasizes the distance between the drivers... integration of the sound starts to be part of the picture, besides the crossover issues.
                                                                          Right. I would think that the close distance would influence integrating the sound between the drivers. So maybe use a not-so-high crossover point (below 3,000 Hz) even though the center-to-center spacing would allow higher crossover points.



                                                                          Originally posted by Dougie085
                                                                          I'd like some sort of mini array honestly like the one that was posted a while back but then the guy fell off the face of the earth before he posted all the details. Had like a plexi front on it and one of the drivers was OB. I would of course prefer it had a tweeter but really liked the design.
                                                                          Yeah, I remember that project. It’s *very* cool looking. Nice and small, too. No idea how it sounds. I agree that a tweeter might be nice.



                                                                          Originally posted by ---k---
                                                                          I have no idea how long a typical drive remains on the market.
                                                                          Me either. From my trying to get info on the D26 I gather that Vifa may be one of the less reliable brands these days, in terms of product longevity and such.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonW
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                                            • 1582

                                                                            #38
                                                                            OK, so last night I was trying out various ways to design the baffle for such a small speaker. Making cuts in scrap ply. Using ~6” diameter for a woofer that plays in this volume enough to reach a sub. And a ~2 1/8” circle for a small tweeter. I could make what’s in the photo. That practice baffle is 6.5 x 10” and the CD case is there for scale.

                                                                            I could shave off 1/4” or maybe 3/8” from the top. But I think this is about as small as a speaker can get if you want to play low enough to reach a sub. And have a real tweeter in there. Maybe you can see why I don’t want to go to a regular sized (~4”) tweeter flange. It just gets to be too big of a speaker for desktop/shelf etc. use.

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                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • ---k---
                                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2005
                                                                              • 5202

                                                                              #39
                                                                              I like it, especially the different angles around the woofer.
                                                                              - Ryan

                                                                              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonW
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Jan 2006
                                                                                • 1582

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Thanks RYan. I still have some specifics on the design to think about before ordering parts and starting things. Mostly I need to decide on a small-flanged tweeter.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • recca
                                                                                  Junior Member
                                                                                  • Feb 2006
                                                                                  • 6

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Hey JohnW I'm new to this board and just saw this thread. I was wondering if you made any progress on it as I'm also in the same boat. I'm running Aperion Audio Intimus 4's right now which are okay but have some difficulty integrating with my sub. I've also been thinking about a desktop speaker as my first project and so am interested if you've completed these.

                                                                                  Thanks!

                                                                                  dave

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • ---k---
                                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                    • Nov 2005
                                                                                    • 5202

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I'm not Jon, but I'll post the picture he emailed to me. Who knows when he'll emerge from his mad science lab next.

                                                                                    They're cute and small, but not tiny. My understanding is the boxes are nearly done, expensive drivers are in his house, but he hasn't begun measurements.
                                                                                    Attached Files
                                                                                    - Ryan

                                                                                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • recca
                                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                                                      • 6

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Sweet thanks! Looks like he went with XT25?

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • chasw98
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Jan 2006
                                                                                        • 1360

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by ---k---
                                                                                        They're cute and small, but not tiny.
                                                                                        Yes they are! The are "The Tiny Tots!"

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonW
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                                                          • 1582

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Hey Guys,

                                                                                          Ahhh, memories of an old thread.

                                                                                          Dave, welcome to htguide. Yes, this small speaker project is alive and I have some progress to report. Some day I’ll write it all up in a separate design and build thread. When I get close to having a final crossover. For now, here are some details…

                                                                                          Ryan posted where it’s at now. Thanks Ryan. Some more pics are below. I’ve made the cabinets. Still need to veneer them, take driver measurements, then work on the crossover.

                                                                                          The speakers will be quite small. I would call them tiny. I haven’t seen much for speakers of this size, besides Zaph’s ZBM4 Bargain Mini. The final dimensions here are 6.5” wide x 10.5” tall x 8.5” deep. One of the pics below shows a cabinet atop a Modula MT- a “regular” sized MT speaker. It’s about 1/4 the size, which is what I was after. It’s difficult to keep things this small. Bass extension, use of other drivers, etc. makes it always tempting to let the size creep up. But then you get to Modula MT size quite quickly. And places like an office, desk, or shelf cannot always take a Modula MT sized speaker. So there may be some demand for a high quality design this small.

                                                                                          The cabinets are slanted and faceted, like my prior Spassvogel project, owing to the measurements I took suggesting that the slants and facets both contribute significantly to the acoustics. Much easier to build these small ones than the big Spassvogel cabinets. I did all the front baffles on one Sunday. A table saw with a sliding miter table did the trick.

                                                                                          I will make a crossover for placement of the speakers right up to a wall. I may or may not make a version for playing on stands, away from walls. Depends if anyone else would want that. My guess is the expensive drivers and complex cabinets will mean that no one else builds these, but you never know.

                                                                                          One of the challenges here is getting a really small speaker to play near 80 hz to reach the sub. And with low distortion. I was going to use the Seas W15 but then the W16 came out. It works better in a smaller box. So the W16 is the woofer. About $225 each. For a small flanged tweeter the new Scanspeak Illuminator came out recently and looks as good as you’ll get for this particular application. Using the long chambered one. $200 each. So drivers for a pair of speakers will be about $850. The crossover may add another $150 or more to the total cost. Not cheap speakers at all, but they could (possibly, I hope, with a tail wind…) be some of the better performing teeny speakers around. If not, they'll at least be some of the more expensive ones around. I’m of the ‘build it once’ mind set rather than making something and wanting to upgrade later. We shall see how they turn out…

                                                                                          Originally posted by chasw98
                                                                                          Yes they are! The are "The Tiny Tots!"
                                                                                          I like “Tiny Tots,” as Chuck suggested. But the name I’ve been thinking about is the “Schlafmutzes.” It’s a German nickname my gal has called me. It’s what you call someone who looks tired after they wake up- a “sleepy head” we’d say here in the US. Schlafmutze translates to “sleep cap.” Caps are cute small things, as are the speakers. And this name is in keeping with using German nicknames I get called. Like the Spassvogels, meaning someone who jokes around a lot, literally “joke bird”.


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