Tangband discussion thread

[Sakura]

OK so, anybody tried the TB Ceramic tweeters yet?

Tang Band 25-1719S 1" Ceramic Dome Tweeter

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-865

Tang Band 25-1744S 1" Ceramic Dome Tweeter

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-866

Both look interesting... I've seen one or the other of these mentioned on this forum/thread, but no reports of anyone trying either yet?

[Mike B]

Tb-1320sd

Here are mine just out of the box from PE.



As you can see, they do have the flat sided frame. Look very nice though (was hoping for round) but there is enough meat left for them to seal in my app, so all is well.

[mowry]

Tang Band Tw Tw 25-1743s

The Tang Band TW 25-1743S is not Beryllium at all. It's a Beryllium Copper alloy that is typically 1.8 to 2.0 % beryllium by weight at best! Here's a message that I sent to Tang Band and their reply.

Dear sirs/madams:

Kindly be advised that the Tang Band TW 25-1743S (http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/25-1743s.htm), which you advertise and represent as a Beryllium Tweeter is not Beryllium. Your claims are false and deceptive. The dome material is actually a common material used in everything from electronic toys to termination in several electronic system products. The material is actually Beryllium Copper, also known as BeCu; CDA 172, CB101, ISO CuBe2, CEN CW101C, A4/2, beryllium bronze and/or Alloy 25. The material is typically only 1.80 to 2.00 % beryllium by weight. To call this material Beryllium is like calling Beer Whiskey but frankly it's statically much worse.

There are really three pieces of evidence.

1. The price is too low for a Beryllium diaphragm.

2. The color of the dome is just not the color of Beryllium. Beryllium is steel gray.

3. The only manufacturer of Acoustic Grade Beryllium Foil (98% or better) on the planet xrayed two samples. This is what they said. "We have performed x-ray fluorescence analysis of the Tang Band "beryllium"tweeter diaphragm. Our analysis indicates that the diaphragm is primarily copper. The technique we used for the analysis is not designed to precisely quantify the composition of the sample, but I am confident that the copper content in the Tang Band tweeter diaphragm is greater than 90%.Therefore, Tang Band may be using Be-Cu for their diaphragms, but I am certain they do not use beryllium as claimed. Please let me know if you would like additional information concerning our analysis of the Tang Band"beryllium" tweeter diaphragm.

The material properties of the BeCu and Be are vastly different.

1. Material Properties summary for Be:
Density 1844 kg/m^3
Young's modulus: 300 x 10^9 Pa
Poisson's ratio: 0.1
Speed of sound: 12800 m/s
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSh...658d4a4f&ckck=1

2. Material property summary for BeCu

Density: 8250 kg/m^3
Young's modulus: 125 x 10^9 Pa
Poisson's ratio: 0.3
Speed of sound: 3900 m/s
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSh...a06b668c&ckck=1

The TW 25-1743S seems like a nice product; however, it is being represented as a "Beryllium Tweeter". Please change your description on your websites and in your advertising documentation to "Beryllium Copper Tweeter" at your earliest convenience.

Yours,

Steve Mowry

http://www.s-m-audio.com/steve_mowry.html

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your comments on the Beryllium, we will correct the name to be "Beryllium Alloy". Our engineering team had ever done the experiment for different Beryllium materials from different vender and source for the dome tweeter and did lots of measurements and listening. The performance, THD, sounding and even the production control, the current one we use fit the best. Therefore, we prefer to use this Beryllium Copper to be the dome for tweeter. Anyway, thanks for your comments.

Sincerely,
Diana Huang
TB Speaker
ISO 9001-2000 certified
E-mail :info@tb-speaker.com
Web : www.tb-speaker.com
Tel : 886-2-26570282

[cotdt]

So the dome material is actually copper? No wonder it would have some roll-off, copper is heavy!

[fjhuerta]

Ah, Tang Band

[mowry]

There are other considerations for the TANG BAND "Beryllium" Tweeter. For example common 304 Stainless Steel has superior mechanical properties to CuBe2.

Density:
CuBe2 8250 kg/m^3 304 SS 8000 kg/m^3

Modulus:
CuBe2 125 x 10^9 Pa 200 x 10^9 Pa

Poisson's ratio:
CuBe2 0.30 304 SS 0.29

Speed of Sound:
CuBe2 4000 m/s 304 SS 5000 m/s

The reasons for not using 304 SS for a transducer diaphragm are obvious. So why use CuBe2? Could it be fundamentally related to intent to deceive?

There are other companies that are even more flagrant in their quests, SONIC http://www.yingpo.com/english/index.htm for example. Their Beryllium is 88.47% Titanium and 0.6075% Beryllium

http://www.badongo.com/file/12388488, yet they represent their domes and cones as "Beryllium". They even give them a coat of paint to match the color of Acoustic Grade Be, 98% or better

http://www.electrofusionproducts.com/web/bpdweb.nsf/AllDocsByID/A056E254C789C3DA88256E160024517E/$File/China_Be_Domes_Report.pdf

Here's a picture of Fake Be on the left, the cone and Real e on the right, the dome, http://www.badongo.com/pic/4833197. The cone has a density of ~3750 kg/m^3. Titanium has a density of ~4000 kg/m^3.

Are companies using SONIC's domes and cones and representing and advertising them as "Beryllium"? Oh yes some that are considered "High-End" and my investigations are ongoing.

You can help. I have been able to locate only one source of Beryllium foil and/or formed beryllium domes. Beware, I cannot identify any source for cones except TAD (Pioneer) but they are used in the TAD Reference Series only. Can anyone identify any supplier(s) of beryllium foil? Can anyone identify any other companies that misrepresent their speakers as "Beryllium Tweeters et al."?

Kind regards,

Steve

Edit by moderator to correctly format text and to remove link to poster's business.

[fjhuerta]

The first thing I thought of when I saw TB was selling Be tweeters is that they were copying the new Usher speakers.

[69Stingray]

More interesting Tang Bang drivers being advertised in Voice Coil:

W8-1808

[Hank]

Well, I'd like to know the price before passing preliminary judgement. Look at that relatively large impedance blip centered at 900 Hz - not a good sign.

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'd like to know the price before passing preliminary judgement. Look at that relatively large impedance blip centered at 900 Hz - not a good sign.

No, not at all. What is TB up to these days- emulating some of their competitors? Looks like an attempt at a Fostex full range.

[fjhuerta]

TB: The strangest driver company out there, I suppose.

How can a company who makes the W4-1337 can sell the W4-657sb?

[JonMarsh]

TB: The strangest driver company out there, I suppose.

How can a company who makes the W4-1337 can sell the W4-657sb?

A good example- and I'm sure more extreme ones could come to mind with a little more thought and research. But I usually try to blot those kinds of drivers from my mind.... like the W4 1052, with it's break up modes in the 800 Hz area to decouple the thin PP cone at higher frequencies. Or how about the 6" X 9" "subwoofer"? Another "favorite" of mine is the 25-1166SJ- definitely not another D26CN55.

Still, now and then they do make some intriguing parts- but I wonder who does oversight on their overall product development?

[TacoD]

I get the feeling they just mix some parts and when the results are better than expected they sell the driver.

[JonMarsh]

Well, I just received some more Tangband today... part of the AudioWorx effort to stimulate the economy, or to fill my personal storage to over flowing...





I've probably taken leave of my senses....








.....must not buy more underhung VC drivers...... :B

[---k---]

I was under the impression that the W4-1337 was a variation of the Visaton Ti100 http://www.solen.ca/pdf/visaton/ti100.pdf .

You should see some TB drivers that Wolf brought to Iowa DIY 2007. The phase plug was a mushroom shaped wooden draw pull. Very odd. TB sent them to PE for evaluation. PE decided not to sell them, and sold the samples at the Tent Sale.

[Jed]

The only thing the W4 1337 shares in common with the Visaton is a titanium cone. The cone profiles are different and the motors are different. So I guess TB can design a good driver when they want to.

[Jed]

Well, I just received some more Tangband today... part of the AudioWorx effort to stimulate the economy, or to fill my personal storage to over flowing...

Whatcha building? Line array?

[---k---]

Jed, thanks for the clarification.

[JonMarsh]

Buildin?

Whatcha building? Line array?

Well, it's really an investigational study..... the 6-1/" TB will go into 1 cu ft. PE cabinets for initial testing as a bass section of three way; the midrange and treble will be handled by the NHT special buys, but not necessarily with the tweeter that came with them. Soft of kluging up a test system to play with the crossover concepts.

The 5" TB W5-1685 will be tested separately for use as a midrange in a Duelund system, the target being an eventual Indra Clone of sorts, with the role of the 7" drivers filled by the 6.5" TB W6-1721. This would be the unholy alliance of TB and ScanSpeak, as the tweeter of choice seems to be the new D3004 Air Circ Illuminator.






which should be very easy to work with in the Duelund configuration I want to use.




Now I like to justify this idea because of late I've liked the behavior of underhung VC drivers, like the Aurasound NS12, etc, but I think ThomasW just writes it off to early onset dementia or Alzheimer.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

And this way, sort of kluging up an acoustic test bed of sorts, I can have something to test and work with (and listen to music) before I have the necessary time off to build another set of Avalon style cabinets- they're TIME CONSUMING!!

[Jed]

Looks good Jon... I've got a pair of those Illuminator Air Circ tweeters here as well. When I get further along I can post some results on them and we can compare notes. I'm using the Accuton C90-T6 and SS 26W drivers to mate up with it.

Don't you have a quad of Accutons collecting dust?

[JonMarsh]

Looks good Jon... I've got a pair of those Illuminator Air Circ tweeters here as well. When I get further along I can post some results on them and we can compare notes. I'm using the Accuton C90-T6 and SS 26W drivers to mate up with it.

Don't you have a quad of Accutons collecting dust?

Hey, I resembled that remark! Actually, my C90-T6 are packaged up quite nicely, and have not a lick of dust on them, unlike some other drivers. And they're reserved for the M12ta, and the Isiris if I get back to it anytime soon.

Sounds to me like you've got a great project in mind! I'm thinking hard about the D3004's for the M12TA. Ultimately, the Indra Klone will be a master bedroom setup, if it works out.

[---k---]

before I have the necessary time off to build another set of Avalon style cabinets- they're TIME CONSUMING!!

Jon,

the current cool thing to do is have your boxes cut on a CNC machine. If I were going to build an Avalon style cabinet, it would be very tempting for me to go this route.

Nick Bruwer is cutting baffles and boxes on his CNC for a lot of people over at the PE forum. His prices are very reasonable. He only has a 2-axis CNC, so I think there would be a few cuts left to be done on a table saw, but probably worth it.

http://www.freewebs.com/uber-stealth/diyhomeaudio.htm

[JonMarsh]

Interesting- thanks for the link, I'll check it out. Unfortuntately, what I'm going to be doing will be lacking in nice 90 degree angles... Looking to do something a little more petite than the M8ta's.

[CraigJ]

Looking to do something a little more petite than the M8ta's.

....if you design it, I will build it! In for a pair of Indra Clones. Hope the TB W6-1721's lower level distortion per Zaphs, works into your plan. Gotta save for the D3004 8O (didn't have to ask, just looked it up)
Craig

[TacoD]

Looks good Jon... I've got a pair of those Illuminator Air Circ tweeters here as well. When I get further along I can post some results on them and we can compare notes. I'm using the Accuton C90-T6 and SS 26W drivers to mate up with it.

Don't you have a quad of Accutons collecting dust?

Strange combo, why not use a Scan Illuminator as mid? (I do not buy the argument that it has high distortion or is too expensive... ).

[jkrutke]

This would be the unholy alliance of TB and ScanSpeak, as the tweeter of choice seems to be the new D3004 Air Circ Illuminator.

TB and Scanspeak would be like cats and dogs living together. :B I think a lot of us are wondering if the Air Circ Illuminator is anything more than a 6600 with a fancy frame. If you've got a pair, let us know. I actually think they just copied the 6600 response curve and put it in the 6620 specs.

BTW, welcome back, good to see you around again.

[jkrutke]

Strange combo, why not use a Scan Illuminator as mid? (I do not buy the argument that it has high distortion or is too expensive... ).

My only argument about the illuminator is that they failed to give us improvements in the cone and spider dept. (the 7" at least, haven't tested the 5" and I probably never will)

[Silversmoky]

[QUOTE=jkrutke] I think a lot of us are wondering if the Air Circ Illuminator is anything more than a 6600 with a fancy frame. If you've got a pair, let us know.

I know I have been wondering about this! The graph looks identical. Would be interesting to see some tests to see if there are any differences besides the $60.00 bump in price.

[Jed]

[QUOTE=Silversmoky]

I think a lot of us are wondering if the Air Circ Illuminator is anything more than a 6600 with a fancy frame. If you've got a pair, let us know.

I know I have been wondering about this! The graph looks identical. Would be interesting to see some tests to see if there are any differences besides the $60.00 bump in price.

I'll have a full report on this tweeter by the end of April (HD sweeps, FR, Imp etc).

[Silversmoky]

Thanks Jed. Look forward to seeing the results. It would be impressive if they actually did improve on the 6600.

[JonMarsh]

TB and Scanspeak would be like cats and dogs living together. :B I think a lot of us are wondering if the Air Circ Illuminator is anything more than a 6600 with a fancy frame. If you've got a pair, let us know. I actually think they just copied the 6600 response curve and put it in the 6620 specs.

BTW, welcome back, good to see you around again.

Hey, I'm glad to have a little more time for things like this, for a change. Even in these times, employment can be too much of a good thing. :W

This week is a frantic round of re-organization in my storage areas and setting up test rack again- hopefully by the end of the week, I'll get a little testing in.

You may be quite right about the 6600 versus the new "Illuminator"- that may be more a product of the marketing dept. than engineering. We'll see soon.

Cat's and dogs? Could be a good way of describing combining TB and SS- but who knows, maybe I'm just tired of taming metal and ceramic drivers all the time!!



We'll see how it works out- first step is some driver testing and calculations!! At least it will be something having to do with speakers!

If things go as I expect, I'll be setup by the weekend for measurements- maybe I'll even get them done, with luck, on the NHTs, the TB drivers, and the D3004-662001. As Zaph notes, there does seem to be a lot of copy and paste on the measurement side- so aside from a more nicely fabricated front plate with a seemingly deeper short HF waveguide, are we getting anything?










Stay tuned for frustratingly inconclusive tests in an upcoming post! :roll:





~Jon

[mackintire]

underhungs

Jon

I'm using those underhung 4" and 5"s in my Natangs project.

From the basic tests I've done so far, I'm impressed.



I'm hoping to have them done before the end of the summer so I can bring them to the next Pittsburgh get together.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the comment and feedback. There seems to be a lot to like on paper, at least! The W5-1685 may need a custom mounting plate to avoid rear masking, but that's quite doable for me. I've since determined this week that I can probably do a nice bass alignment in a 50 liter cabinet for two of the W6-1721, tuning below driver Fs. I didn't expect that, but then Unibox can be useful, and has correlated well for me in the past. Cross fingers, it may be worth doing a quick test enclosure.

[JonMarsh]

TB and Scanspeak would be like cats and dogs living together. :B I think a lot of us are wondering if the Air Circ Illuminator is anything more than a 6600 with a fancy frame. If you've got a pair, let us know. I actually think they just copied the 6600 response curve and put it in the 6620 specs.

BTW, welcome back, good to see you around again.

Well, FedEX came through today, though their new express shipping rates from Madisound are inexpensive, one day service isn't necessarily one day... :W




Just to be contrarian, (we're allowed that in our elder years), I'll probably see how well I can do measuring with Fuzzmeasure this weekend- will throw some more familiar drivers into the mix just for benchmarking. Now let's see, just WHERE are those Excel tweeters I have? :W

[fjhuerta]

Those two tweeters in that box ARE speaker porn.

Paging Dr. Freud.

[JonMarsh]

Those two tweeters in that box ARE speaker porn.

Paging Dr. Freud.

You'd better believe it... Now we have to see what's behind the pretty face!

[savage25xtreme]

Those two tweeters in that box ARE speaker porn.

Paging Dr. Freud.

agreed, very easy on the eyes... :T

[JonMarsh]

A warning....

The packaging for the W6-1721 and shipping is somewhat questionable in my opinion. In one case, a received box of two looked fine, no apparent box abuse, but both drivers had broken front flanges. Another in another box received had a cracked front flange. This probably can't be laid completely at PE's feet; given the magnet size, the design of the speaker frame, and the minimal support in the Mfr's original box, it's not hard to see why this happens.

The one's damaged were packed two in a box. The one's I've received not damaged were packed in a larger box, less likely to be tossed around, and with more padding.

[JonMarsh]

W5-1685 Show promise

Yesterday I did some basic measurements on the TB W5-1685. Due to the large magnet and shallow frame and cone, it's necessary to do an aggressive back bevel on the driver mounting, otherwise much of the rear is masked. Fortunately, the W5-1685 does have a vented rear spider plate, much like Seas and Scanspeak drivers.






This may not be enough taken out for clearance, but I had to leave some "meat" in to support the rather massive driver magnet system!

In practice, to use this in a system, I think I would use a metal plate mounting system, with 1/4" aluminum, to give a more unrestricted backwave area.


John Krutke had reported good performance and value leading distortion performance, but as variability can be a problem, naturally I needed to see for myself, and in the context of my planned application, where performance from 200 Hz to about 4 kHz is critical, for SPL and phase, and for distortion in the 400 Hz to 2 kHz area. Especially phase linearity in the target area is important to be usable for the Duelund approach I want to try again.




Things don't start to get really weird in the top end until above 4-5 kHz, so that's looking pretty good; that level will be well down in amplitude in the planned target function. A trap should take care of that, like the one used in the upper range of the RS52 in the last project.



Phase linearity in the important range for this project looks like it will cut the mustard.



I checked distortion at higher levels than 2 watts drive, at up to 12 VRMS, into the driver 4 ohm load impedance, and the curve stays much the same, but rises in level, of course... still, at 12VRMS, it does well compared to many drivers at 2.83 VRMS. And as I plan to use two in an MTM, I think this is a keeper. :W

[Eric89GXL]

I checked distortion at higher levels than 2 watts drive, at up to 12 VRMS, into the driver 4 ohm load impedance, and the curve stays much the same, but rises in level, of course... still, at 12VRMS, it does well compared to many drivers at 2.83 VRMS. And as I plan to use two in an MTM, I think this is a keeper. :W

That's great. Thanks for sharing the measurements. I'm going to get a set of the sibling W4's soon, hopefully they have comparable performance...

[TacoD]

Thanks for sharing your measurments. It's a shame that packaging is not that great, when buying these people should ask for extra packaging.

[JonMarsh]

Well, the w5-1685 is smaller and lighter than the w6-1721; I didn't have any issues with the two that I bought, and the magnet isn't so massive and heavy as for it's six/seven inch brother. The w5 is a six inch outside diameter frame; the W6 is a 7" outside diameter frame. Also, the span of support legs to the basket rim is shorter and stronger on the W5.

[Jed]

NEWS:

I just got a batch of W4 1337s. The new model is the W4 1337SD. Up to this point PE has been shipping the W4 1337SA and the new model has a different terminal connector. I'll have to measure these to make sure they are the same as the SA version that most of the designs here on htguide.com have been based on. As you recall I did this last time things changed and it is documented on my website under the driver test section. That was when the SA version had the frame changed to a more rigid construction. So far TB has been improving the design from one version to the next. Let's hope that's the case again.

I also picked up a pair of these to test:

Image not available

It's the W4 1757SB. Note, the flat diaphragm is interesting as is the motor design. TB claims it has low THD, so we'll see if it's going to work out for an upcoming design I have in mind.

Here's another driver that is going to get tested as a possible candidate in a Lineup D4/D44 type monitor.

Image not available

[mordensiur]

Jed have you tested those W4 1757SB ??

[Jed]

Jed have you tested those W4 1757SB ??

The W4 1757SB has an issue which made about 2-3% HD2 at 2k. The rest was really on par with the W4 1337. I decided the W4 1337 was better.

I see there are 2 versions of surrounds on the W4 1757 and maybe the pair I got wasn't the better of the 2 versions. Honestly TB has been a bit annoying lately because every batch is a little different in appearance. Different connectors, different baskets, different surrounds, etc. Luckily the W4 1337's parameters haven't changed much.