Lip Sync Problems on Panasonic S35 DVD Player

[Bing Fung]

Modified Title, see latest post


Well I noticed a slight lip sync problem on my 2 week old Panasonic S35 DVD player. I noticed this on the DVD Bad Boys 1.

I'm going to have to take this back for a refund I think. I wanted a mid price progressive DVD player but it seems they are either el-cheapo, or +$1000 players now.

This willbe the 4th DVD player I have taken back and I'm sure I will be known as a problem customer.

I first started off with a Pioneer DV 363K. I returned it for I was noticing bad sawtooth artifiacts on certain scenes (Bad Boy II).

I then got a Sony DVPNS575PS, well this thing was worst.

So then I traded it in for a discontinued Sony DVPNS775, and it was the same.

I ended up with the Panny for it was the least problematic during that scene, and I felt it overall had a crisper image than the other players. Alas now it's got this lipsync problem.

I thought Lipsync problems were a thing of the past?




Bing

My Home Entertainment Systems

[George Bellefontaine]

Holy heck. I hope my Sony 7700 doesn't give up the ghost anytime soon. Looks like a lot of garbage dvd players out there.




My Homepage!

[Bing Fung]

George, I have to agree, it looks like all those cheap sub $200 DVD players are just that... C-H-E-A-P.

I was wondering if the DVD maybe partly to blame. It is one of those DVD's that defaults to the Prologic track. DD must be selected from the setup menu before play.

I have never noticed this problem with my Sony DVD player (and I have watched this movie a lot), and it playes fine in my PC's DVD players. However maybe the Panny has a problem with these type of disks?

Sofar it is just the BB1 DVD that I have noticed it on. However I'm not about to run though my entire DVD collection trying to solve it. I think any type of lipsync errors are unacceptable. However now that is been 2 weeks they may not give my money back.

I have no problem spending more on a player, however they don't have a player that i want to spend more on.. Which will be a slight problem if they only give me instore credit.




Bing

My Home Entertainment Systems

[Trevor Schell]

Bing!, The guys at AW are going to think your a Bad Boy!!

We know your a good boy!!
Bing has upgraditis in his viens!! :P

:smackbutt: :wedgie:




Trevor
My HomeTheater S.E.
Sonically Enhanced
C5

[Bing Fung]

Hey Trev :T Really, I don't have upgraditis, I'm just tying to find a DVD player that is a good match for this TV. I thought the Panny had the best image quality of the cheapo DVD players, but his lipsync error is terrible. That bugs me the most as it really disconnects me for the movie.

[Bing Fung]

I have gotten a few suggestions on what I should or shouldn't buy to replace the Panny (it's going back, AW has stated no problems, and to return it).

Some are saying don't spend a whack load of money for HD-DVD is around the corner... well actually most are saying this... :?

Here are my thoughts.

While HD-DVD is coming, it's going to be a few years at least and it is probable the players will be expensive. It will also be a while before material is available for the HD-DVD players, so added up it gonna be a few years out at least.

OK, I can relate to this and understand not to go buying a Denon 5900 for a million dollars (or what ever stratosphere it's priced at), However I am interested in a higher end DVD/SACD/DVD-A player that would give me a good image but also be a better CD player than what I currently have. I have been thinking a Denon 2900, 2200 or a equivelent form other manufactures such as Rotel...etc

Based on the wait recommendations I have received, is buying a 2900 or 2200 Denon silly at this time, given what 's to come?

Remember I need a Progressive DVD player and would like a better CD/SACD/DVD-A player just so I can experience those newer formats as well. Given that should still wait or spend less for a DVD player?

I'm taking the Panny back this morning.

[Bing Fung]

Well, after coming home with a Denon 2200 DVD/CD player, it turns out it was not the Panasonic DVD players fault, and maybe a fault of the TV and it's scaler.

I connected up the 2200 only to see the same lipsync errors on the Bad Boys DVD. I then connected the 2 ch audio out of the DVD player to the TV, and it was much better as it seems whatever scaling delay is happening to the video signal, is also being applied to the audio track so it syncs up fine if everthing is sent to the TV.

Maybe the TV is not all to blame and maybe the Bad Boys DVD is to blame, however it played fine in my old Sony DVD and Sony XBR TV. It also plays fine in any of my PC's DVD players.

So far Bad Boys is the only DVD I have noticed it on, but it's one of those things that only time will tell how bad the scaler lag is, or whats causing it. I'm going to give Toshiba Tech Support a call this week.

[Kevin P]

Maybe the TV is not all to blame and maybe the Bad Boys DVD is to blame, however it played fine in my old Sony DVD and Sony XBR TV. It also plays fine in any of my PC's DVD players.

Do you still have your Sony DVD and/or XBR TV? If you do, try those in the mix--try the Denon with the XBR or the Sony DVD with the Tosh and see which ones do, or don't exhibit the lip sync problem. This should help you isolate exactly where the problem is occurring.

I see lip sync errors on rare occasion, but it is always with specific DVD titles, and likely the fault of the mastering. Sometimes the engineers don't get the sync perfect when making the DVD in the first place. ops:

[Bam!]

Bing!

My buddy had that problem....he would watch the movie...then listen to it :lol: ....

Euhhh yeah...anyway

He brought to the shop he bought it....they knew about it...put a cd in the transport....Whammo Bammo...fixed

[Bing Fung]

Kevin, I don't have the XBR anymore, I still do have my Sony DVD Player. However the Sync error was in the Panasonic DVD player and now the Denon as well. I suppose I could hook up the Sony just to be sure

When I connected the Denon Audio directly to the TV, instead of using the DD receiver, the sync error dissapeared.

It maybe the Bad Boys DVD is to blame, however it works fine in my PC DVD and my Laptop DVD. It is one of my favorite shows that I have watched manytimes over.. I'm sure I woul dhave noticed this before.


Bam, yes, I have heard of that, however I don't think it's the DVD plyer that is at fault here as I have tried 2 brand new players. Both have the error. So it's either my receiver or the TV.

[Bing Fung]

I just tried the Bad Boys DVD in the old Sony DVD player. It seems to have been closer than the Panasonic or the Denon. There still was a lag at the particular scenes, however it was not as noticable. It was close enough to call it acceptable.

So does this mean its the DVD players? Or could it just be this DVD, why the variance in the DVD players?

Why does it sync perfectly if the Denon DVD player is outputting 2 ch to the TV with Component video, but not with DD?

What is it only certain scenes of the DVD and not the whole DVD?

I certainly hope it is something related to the DVD, however when i play it bac in my PC, it's bang on!

[Bam!]

Bing!

Me a little woosy right now...but....Is this on your new Toshiba...like Trev! ?

If so...why don`t you check it out at his place tonight....or maybe you already thought of dat....

Sorry Bam! is pooped out right now....forgive me... :

[Bing Fung]

Already on it Bam-A-Ramma! :wink:

[Bing Fung]

I tested the DVD over on Trevor Schell's setup with the same TV. We got the same lipsync errors there as well. Trev though the DVD is suffering from DVD rot, so I thought I would rent the DVD from VHQ and test it further...

That was until last night. I was watching Desparado superbit, and I noticed some more lipsync errors during some scenes as well. I promtly ejected the DVD and checked it for DVD rot, none that I could see.

This is really baffelleing me.....

Bad Boys DVD plays well in my old Sony non progressive unit, and in my PC dvd players, yet it has sync errors in the Panasonic S35 and the Denon 2200. Is this a fault of the DVD players? The synce errors come and go, meaning the step out slightly then stepback with in a minute or less.

I talked to Toshibia Tech Support and they told me it is not the TV, but it is my sound processing that is creating the errors.

[David Meek]

Bing, this is just a suggestion to eliminate a variable.

Are you routing your video through your receiver/pre-pro or not (running direct from DVD to TV)? If not, try routing the video through it, just like the audio. It could be that there IS a processing/timing issue going on with the receiver's audio portion and it may spill over into the video signal as well. Hey, it can't hurt and who knows. . . .
:banghead:

[Bing Fung]

Thanks for the suggestion David.

Currently I'm running the Video directly to the TV. I'm not sure my Denon 3300 will take a progressive signal, but I'll try it.

When I connected the Audio from the DVD to the TV there were no sync errors. Basically the TV was fed both signals.

[Kevin P]

In an earlier post you said the audio is ahead of the video when this happens, right? Does the 3300 have an audio delay feature? The 3805 does, but it's a newer and fancier model.

You said you see the same delays, but not as severe, with your Sony player? Have you tried the Panny or Denon player outputting an interlaced, rather than progressive, signal? Does that make a difference?

Lip sync issues can be caused by a combination of factors. First of all, they're usually only noticeable if the audio and video are off by more than 2 video frames. I'll bet most DVDs are only synced to within that tolerance, meaning some discs may have a 1 to 2 frame lip sync error in some scenes, which under ideal conditions, isn't noticeable. Add an external factor that adds an additional, constant delay, such as a buggy DVD player, processor, or scaler, and those 1-2 frame discrepancies on your DVDs suddenly become 3-4 frame discrepancies. If your receiver allows you to add an audio delay, you can get the discrepancy back down to a level where you won't notice it.

A good example of this is the now-classic Pioneer DV-414. This was my first DVD player, and it was notorious for having lip sync problems on certain discs. Some people analyzed the output of the player in detail and determined that it delayed the audio by 2 frames on all discs. For discs where the audio and video were spot on to begin with, the 2 frame delay wasn't all that noticeable. But on other discs, such as the original Austin Powers, and several others, which had maybe a 2 frame audio lag as well, the delay became very noticeable.

When I upgraded from the DV-414 to the Sony DVP-S9000ES, the lip sync problems went away for the most part. I do notice that discs that showed a noticeable lag on the 414 still showed a very slight lag (not noticeable unless you look for it) on the Sony, so this shows that it's the combination of the disc and the player that made the problem noticeable. Eliminate one source of lag, and it becomes less noticeable if something else is adding a delay.

In your case, with Bad Boys and Desperado, you're probably hitting scenes that always had a slight lip sync discrepancy to begin with, but then add another frame or two of delay because of the Tosh's scaler, they suddenly jump out at you.

[Bing Fung]

Good points Kevin. I'm sure it is a case of the sync error being there in the disc to begin (almost impercevible). It's then further compounded by scaling, and processing from the DVD player or TV.


I have tried interlaced and progessive out put from the DVD, no functional difference.

I connected the Component out through my Denon Receiver, still had the sync errors. At least now I know the 3300 will pass progressive signals. It does not have a setable delay.

I bought a Marantz DV4300 DVD Player just to try.



Sync errors are present with this unit as well... Taking it back.

What surprises me is how more people aren't up in arms about this.. I try doing searches on sync errors and most times it's related to the Pioneer DV-414, with not much talk about these new scaling systems creating problems... Maybe others are more tolerent of this, but it drives me nuts!

Obviously it must be a well known problem for manufactures to be introducing adjustable delays into the Audio processors :roll:

I connected up my daughters 27" Sony FS100 with component input. Sync errors were minimized to be almost unoticable. It is an Interlaced TV only. Does that mean it's the Toshiba's fault? Or is it still that marginal error rule Kevin presented, and the Toshiba is making it noticable. What I'm trying to ascertain is "Should the TV go bacK?" Or should I keep on Toshiba Tech support for a firm ware fix? Or should I just live with it for sync errors are just part of the experience?