HDMI help with AV receiver

[audioqueso]

I'm looking to buy an AV receiver in March, but I'm kinda confused as to whether I would need HDMI.

I was debating Marantz vs Arcam, and even though I never heard an Arcam, I was sold by others to get the Arcam. However, Arcam AVR300/350 doesn't do audio over HDMI or upconvertion of other. I was thinking of picking up a PS3 next month or March. If I understand correctly, if I want to use Blu-Ray true HDDolby (or whatever it's called), I have to use HDMI 1.3? I can't use optical, right? My other choice would be a dongle cable with 8 RCA connections, right? If I do need HDMI, then the Marantz is kind of my answer here.

The other concern is pass-thru with HDMI. Essentially, I would have the DVD player, the Wii, satellite tv, and (soon to be) PS3 connected to the AV receiver. However, I don't always want to watch everything with my audio system. Sometimes I want just tv sound, whether it be tv shows, Wii, or DVDs. If I have the DVD and satellite tv going into the AV receiver via HDMI, and output to the tv, do I need to have the AV receiver on? Like some receivers can pass-thru the RCA video signals whether the unit is on or off. Or in this case, will a HDMI switcher be the solution? If a switcher is the answer, then either receiver will do, right?

Movie wise, aside from ease of one cable and 1080p, what exactly do I gain with HDMI that can't be be achieved with any other cable? Or is just that, ease of one cable and 1080p???

[PewterTA]

You can use the PS3 with the optical out, but you will only get the "core" sound (same as you get with the DVD), you won't get the TrueHD or DTS-MA, you have to do HDMI 1.3 for that. The PS3 does not support 8 RCA Analog connections, so you'd have to end up getting a Blu-Ray player instead.

If you want to use a PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, figure on getting a A/V receiver (Pre/Pro) that will eventually decode all the codecs.

If you run the connections through the AV Receiver, you have to use it for it to pass the connections, it has to be on and switched to pass that connection through it. No way around that other than to connect directly to the TV (which then defeats the purpose of the AV Receiver...and getting the good sound.

[audioqueso]

You can use the PS3 with the optical out, but you will only get the "core" sound (same as you get with the DVD), you won't get the TrueHD or DTS-MA, you have to do HDMI 1.3 for that. The PS3 does not support 8 RCA Analog connections, so you'd have to end up getting a Blu-Ray player instead.

Ah, so the PS3 doesn't have a dongle cable with all 8 RCAs. Interesting. I didn't know that. So for HD audio, HDMI is a most from the PS3. Got it. :T

If you want to use a PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, figure on getting a A/V receiver (Pre/Pro) that will eventually decode all the codecs.

Are there that many? Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, DTS-HD Master Audio... any I missed?

If you run the connections through the AV Receiver, you have to use it for it to pass the connections, it has to be on and switched to pass that connection through it. No way around that other than to connect directly to the TV (which then defeats the purpose of the AV Receiver...and getting the good sound.

So it's a regular electrical connection like digital coax, it needs the current to pass it thru, correct? I know it would defeat the purpose of having an AV receiver, but I have kids. Sometimes I just want to put on their kids DVDs so they can watch and play. I don't need it all extravagant and all.

[PewterTA]

Yep, to get true hi-res audio from the PS3, it's HDMI all the way.

There's DTS-HD you forgot.

Yep, unfortunately, it's not a passive throughway on the receivers. You need to have it on to pass the signal. Basically though, if you're watching kids DVDs, all you need is to have the receiver on...you can use the audio from the TV and just turn the receiver all the way down. This will do what you're looking for with minor extra electrical use.

[Race Car Driver]

Couldnt he just use the regular component out from PS3 into the TV with audio jacks goin into TV.

[audioqueso]

Couldnt he just use the regular component out from PS3 into the TV with audio jacks goin into TV.

Actually, that's true. Yes, I could. But I wouldn't want to since I can't get full HD resolution.

[Jack Gilvey]

You can use the PS3 with the optical out, but you will only get the "core" sound (same as you get with the DVD), you won't get the TrueHD or DTS-MA, you have to do HDMI 1.3 for that...

If you want to use a PS3 as a Blu-Ray player, figure on getting a A/V receiver (Pre/Pro) that will eventually decode all the codecs.

As I've mentioned before (not sure if it was to you), the PS3 can't bitstream TrueHD or DTS-HD MA at all, so decoding can't be done in the AVR. It can decode TrueHD and send that in its native LPCM form over HDMI 1.1, and it's likely it'll be able to decode DTS-HD MA at some point and also pass that along as LPCM (again requiring only HDMI 1.1).
For a PS3-based system, HDMI 1.3 won't be of any real benefit. No reason to avoid it, of course.

[audioqueso]

Maybe I'm understanding you. (I've never talked about PS3 by the way). You're saying that if I watch a movie that uses TrueHD or DTS-HD MA with the PS3, I can't utilize TrueHD or DTS HDMA because..
1) the PS3 can't send raw TrueHD/DTSHDMA data across HDMI. So even if I have an AVR that can decode them, it just isn't receiving the data to decode.
2) The PS3 can decode TrueHD, but can't send it properly to the AVR
3) The PS3 can't decode DTS HDMA, so there's no way of decoding or sending the data.

Is that correct?
I know this is more of a PS3 issue, but still related to whether I need HDMI 1.3 for my scenerio.

[Jack Gilvey]

Maybe I'm understanding you. (I've never talked about PS3 by the way).

You did in post #3, but I see it was just in response. Anyway, if you're considering it...

You're saying that if I watch a movie that uses TrueHD or DTS-HD MA with the PS3, I can't utilize TrueHD or DTS HDMA because..
1) the PS3 can't send raw TrueHD/DTSHDMA data across HDMI. So even if I have an AVR that can decode them, it just isn't receiving the data to decode.

Right, the PS3 can't send the advanced codecs in bitstream form for an AVR to decode.

2) The PS3 can decode TrueHD, but can't send it properly to the AVR

Not sure how you got that, I stated that it can decode THD and send the PCM over HDMI (at least rev. 1.1). TrueHD and DTS-HD are merely ways to pack PCM for storage, so when "unzipped" PCM is the true "native form" of both.

3) The PS3 can't decode DTS HDMA, so there's no way of decoding or sending the data.

Right, there's no way to hear MA with a PS3 right now. It seems likely a decoding update will occur, and less likely that a bitstream update will occur (hardware issue, apparently). What you will get is DTS core @ 1.5Mbps, still better than what we've had on DVD.

[PewterTA]

Actually they have plans for bit-streaming the codecs that will happen either with the DTS-MA update or the next update after that.

[audioqueso]

So there's a DTS-HD and a DTS-HD MA, right? PS3 can do DTS-HD, just not MA. MA is the uncompressed version. Ok. DTS-HD is at 1.5Mbps... as oppose to DTS-HD MA that is...?

In regards to the AV receiver/HDMI/TV concern of mine, I was thinking what about splitters? For instances, the DVD player and PS3 both have HDMI outputs, but only one. So what if I used a splitter on the back of the DVD, and sent one output to the AVR for when I want to use my stereo, and the other to the tv for when I want to just use the tv? The thing is, if I connect everything through the AVR, and only through the AVR, it will be on all the time. I don't want the AVR on all the time.

[comeup]

Audioqueso,

What I would do is have both component and HDMI hooked up. When using the receiver use the HDMI for surround sound and the best picture and for casual use without surround sound use the component directly to the display that way you have either or. My son has a PS3 and uses component on his LCD the picture is darn good just no 1080P. But you would still have the 1080P when you use the receiver without changing wires around. Only thing I hate about the PS3 you have to tell it what connection your going to use to receive a picture. The component cable for PS3 also has red & white for audio the cable is about 20 bucks.

[audioqueso]

Eh, that sucks. So I have to switch it from component to HDMI everytime, huh? That sucks. However, I've been asking some questions in the PS3 forums regarding the games. I don't know if I'll be getting a PS3 anytime soon. I have two PS2s (one Japanese, one American) cause I didn't know about modchips at the time. I thought that because the PS3 had no region, my PS2 games from both sides would work, but come to find out, it doesn't. I don't want to buy two PS3s again. And they (the PS3 forum people) tell me there are no modchips available for the PS3 yet. So I may put that off until they really do make one cause I do want the ability to just have one unit for both. Plus I would like to have blu-ray from both sides as well being that not all movies from the US hit Japan, and vise versa.

Kind of makes it easier with the whole HDMI thing. I'm crossing my fingers that by the time they make a PS3 modchip, they'll also have DTS-HD MA decoding, and PERHAPS they'll have an AV cable that splits out to all 7 channels. That way, I can get the Arcam, used the HDMI for full picture resolution, AND get full audio capabilities. Probably won't happen, but hey..

I'm in no rush for Blu-ray, but once the PS3 can do it all, I'll jump aboard with Blu-ray as well. However, I do need an AV receiver. So it's still Arcam or Marantz. (This is a pain. ha ha)

[audioqueso]

So another quick question. If most Blu-ray/HDDVD players decode the signal and then send it out LPCM via HDMI, does that mean the AV receiver actually do any digital to analog convertion? So receiver A will sound different from receiver B because they have different DACs. Is that correct? What are the players actually decoding?

[Jack Gilvey]

Actually they have plans for bit-streaming the codecs that will happen either with the DTS-MA update or the next update after that.

It seems more likely that onboard decoding will happen, the hardware may be incapable of bitstreaming. In any event, 1.3 will never be required with a PS3 to hear lossless, and will probably be completely superfluous.

If most Blu-ray/HDDVD players decode the signal and then send it out LPCM via HDMI, does that mean the AV receiver actually do any digital to analog convertion?

Yes...decoding and D/A conversion are different things.

So receiver A will sound different from receiver B because they have different DACs. Is that correct?

They might. It has nothing to do with decoding, though.

What are the players actually decoding?

TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are just ways to pack data (PCM) for storage without losing any of it, like zipping a computer file. The players are decoding the streams into their native LPCM form so they can be processed then converted to analog. This decoding has to happen, either in the player or receiver, before the data can be converted to analog. You can't listen to TrueHD or DTS MA in "native" form any more than you can read a zipped computer file.

[audioqueso]

Thank you.