7.1 and DPL 2

[Bing Fung]

What are all the discrete positions of a 7.1 system? 1)Left, 2)center, 3)right, 4)right surround, 5)center surround, 6)left surround 7)??

Why do I want to wait for DPL 2?




Bing

[Lexman]

Bing, the hip hop thing for most processors right now is 6.1. That's all the normal speakers plus a rear center. this is what most refer to as Dolby EX or DTS EX (coming).

Lexicon's imfamous Logic 7. Sort of a psuedo 7.1, sports all the normal channels plus creates two matrixed discrete channels called sides. The Lexicon algorithms extract certain info from the mains and rears to create this somtimes cohesive and sometimes suttle enveloping rear surround stage.

Lexicon's EX involves using the sides as the "EX" porting of the audio. I think this is good, because it gives people a choice. After all, not all rooms setup properly for a speaker right behind the listening area. So, Lexicon gives folks the opportunity for EX without the rear speaker.

Lexicon's logic 7 is available for both matrixed 4.1 and discrete 5.1 encoded material, and now 6.1 EX material. This is true for DPL, DD and DTS, and now EX processing, in that order.

I expect that really Dolby 2 isn't much more than what Lexicon has been doing for years. But I can't confirm that suspicion. I guess that's why some people believe there are Lexicon home theater processors, and then there's the rest. No no, I didn't say I believed it, nor would I make such a pretentious statement. I was only telling you what others might say.

Lex

[Bing Fung]

So when the Denon's have 7 channels what is the 7th channel for, the matrixed mains/surrounds? ala Lexicon?

Lex, I can't belive you wouldn't have said "There are Lexicons and then....." LOL :B




Bing

[MRWILLL]

Bing Fung...

Great name!! The disc doesn't have to be encoded with Surround EX for Lexicon to work it's magic. I have found that when I switch to the EX mode, my rears bring more life than non EX. With Lexicon's EX, all spks are automacially switched to small with the side spks being standard dipoles. IMHO, in the EX mode, the better sub(s) you have, the better sound you will get. I like to listen to movies in both formats, then I make a note on which is better for later viewing.




STOP!!...LOOK!!...LISTEN!!
DVD...Hear it from the people who
mixed and mastered it "LEXICON".

[Bing Fung]

Thanks Mr. WillL I had to live with it all my life :W

Ok, I get it, 6.1 is still standard, and this 7.1 is the manufactuers attempt to broaden the sound stage by stereo'ing the back center (I think?).




Bing

[Andrew Pratt]

Pro logic II isn't ment for 5.1 sources its for regular pro logic material and 2 channel music etc. All it really does is try to create a stereo signal for the rear speakers instead of the mono we currently get with pro logic. For all accounts it manages to do this very well. You have to remember that most of the TV we watch and a huge libary or movies is recorded in pro logic not 5.1 this is where Pro logic II will shine. Denon's DTS NEO is a similar idea though I'm not sure how well it compares to Pro logic II since PLII isn't available yet.

[Wes]

I have been lucky enoph to have heard Prologic II first hand at Jim Fosgates own Home Theater. And for only a two channel sources that we heard it sounded amazingly close to a good DTS or DD track form the sweet spot in the room. Its not discrete and Jim does not pretend to pass it off as such. It was engineered by Jim mainly for his love of multichannel music.
Jim stated that Prologic II is much better than his Axis 6 decoding and solves problems he found with that and other multichannel decoding from two channel media.

You can see photos of our demo on my site!
http://www.prosteering.8k.com

Wes

[Bing Fung]

Wes, Prologic II sounds like something to wait for for sure.

How did you like the soundstage of stereo music with this?

I like your web site, gfreat idea on the T2 case!

Jim's collection of equipment made me sad that i have sold off all my old stuff.




Bing

[John Holmes]

Bing,
I also have 6-axis in my AVP1a. It is a truly impressive sound. If Jim has out done 6-axis then, I'm sure PL2 will (for those that can afford it) sound very, very nice!




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Wes]

The last time we (the Utah HTforum members)were invited to his HT I took my own software to play, The one I was most interested in was Pink Floyd Dark "Side of the Moon". I love the instrumental "On the Run" and I love to listen to it in Prologic. I know this was recorded in Quad back in the 70s but have never heard that mix, and I have heard there is also a DTS Quad running around out there but next to impossible to find. I wanted to see if PL II could really make a Quad type sound field out of my stereo Original Master Recording CD. Although in all cases It did not place the sound exactly where I would have thought it should be it did have a great sound stage with the surrounds definitely stereo and separate from the fronts. Jim had his processor in the PL II "Wraparound" mode which I find to be not my favorite mode as it does place a I would say a 50/50 front and rear stage effects. I feel the Surrounds should be a little less and keep the sound up front a tad more. Jim has invited me up again so I plan to do more playing with this track in other modes, I feel if it can create a nice surround enveloping sound stage with this track everything else is cake. All other music we ran sounded great. His system is quite unique in that it is Tri amped 5.0 (no Sub) 100% tube driven. I put his system through my most demanding music and it begged for more. He wrote me an e-mail after the demo saying he had gone through several of his amps and made changes and that I would not believe the difference now. And then said Ive got to come back up, Don't have to twist my arm!

Wes

[MRWILLL]

Bing...


With my Lexicon, 7.1 is front/side/rear/center spk(s). I use all full range (40Hz/below) spks with Bass Enhance. With the Bass Enhance engaged and two Velodyne subs, my LF is like a tidle wave hovering over my listening room.


NOTE: Without full range spks on every channel, the Bass Enhance is not engaged.




STOP!!...LOOK!!...LISTEN!!
DVD...Hear it from the people who
mixed and mastered it "LEXICON".

[Bing Fung]

Sounds like a very Nice system MrWillL! Bass from all speakers, THX, SchmeHX :B

John, by your comment I'm to assume PLII is going to be expensive? Like are we talking stratospheric?




Bing

[John Holmes]

Bing, I apologize for not being clear. I really have no idea of the final cost. I made the statement based on the cost of units that carried 6-axis when they were new.




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[Trevor Schell]

So when the Denon's have 7 channels what is the 7th channel for, the matrixed mains/surrounds?

Bing,,I always understood the 7.1, (7 channels of amplification) to be set as your 1 Front Left,2 Center,3 Front Right,,then to the sides a 4 Left Side plus a 5 Right Side,,then to the rear a 6 Right Rear plus a 7 Left Rear..All 7 channels of amplification are accounted for with 7 speakers.

In my situation I was going to add a pair of Studio ADP's(Dipoles) to the side walls as the Studio 60's are already behind the couch as the Dual Rears.

Am I correct on this.??




Trevor
My HomeTheater S.E.
Sonically Enhanced
C5

[Lexman]

Bing, your right, I might say something like that, but I wouldn't admit it, lol.

Trevor, you hit it right as far as 7 channel plus subwoofer. I hesitate to call it 7.1. It's really a pseudo 7.1. Why? because the side channels are not directly from an encoded channel such as the original 5.1. Fact is, I don't really think EX is either. I think it's still extracted from the rears, much as Lexicon does the sides. But I cannot confirm that.

The Sides on the Lexicon are matrixed, but still discrete.

Lex

[GregoriusM]

Trevor: That is the way you would set up your Denon system...... and you're gonna love it!!! Wish I could upgrade my Paradigm's right now!!!

Anyway, there is a big thread at HomeTheaterForum that talks all about this DPL2 thing..... any of you might want to have a look.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/uub/Forum14/HTML/028732.html

I have the DTS Neo on my new 3801 from Denon, but I don't think I have it set up right, cause it only let's me go to Neo: Cinema and not Music. But, I just got it and am loving just the regular stereo, DTS and DD!!

Greg :-)

[sfdoddsy]

I was the one who did the listening test between Logic 7, DTS-Neo, Prologic 2 and Corcle Surround referred to above.

It's hard to tell without living with the various pieces, but I would say that Prologic 2 is as good or aomewhat better than Logic 7 if you use five channels.

However, I think 7 channels is better and that's what gives Logic 7 the nod from me.

Prologic 2 shouldn't add much to cost of a new prepro or receiver as the code is apparently quite simple.

There will be upgrades for the Onkyo 989 and TAG McLaren AVR32 and new products will announced at CES.

Cheers

Steve




Steve's DIY Dipoles

[SteveF]

Hi Bing!!! I've got a 7.1 system for you, my own, and it has nothing to do with any fancy Lexicon equipment, but trust me, 'IT IS' 7.1 to the max.
I have an integrated ampilfier and a DD receiver with all sources connected to both. The integrated is pushing the main speakers in full stereo, the DD receiver is pushing all the 'surround' speakers (5.1). The surround speakers are the 5.1 system, get it?? The fronts from the 5.1 DD receiver are the mid/side speakers of the system, the rears the actual rears, then the center and sub. Sound like a good idea?? IT IS !! It sounds great!!! I have more flexibility than you can imagine. If I want, I have a basic stereo system, if I want, I have a stereo system with a little Pro-Logic to accentuate the stereo mode, if I want, I have a 5.1 system, if I want I have 7.1 system !!!! Get it??? I love it, and it's so simple!!!! I got the idea from having extra speakers and an extra integrated amp hanging around, and I had a boring day with nothing to do but experiment!! So, what do you think?? Get back to me if you feel like it. I'd like to hear your thoughts. Have a good one. Peace SteveF




SteveF

[Lexman]

Thanks for the info Steve Dodds. Steve, not sure I totally get your setup there, but if it works well for you, great. It sounded to me like you are running in essense two sets of mains, unless I misunderstood. either that, or I fail to see exactly how your doing this.

Lex

[merc]

Alright, I gotta admit upfront. I'm an old fashioned, anal-og, straight line, non-digitally processed, two channel bypass music freak. When I sit in front of my primary front two speakers to listen, seriously, to music; I want to be able to blindly place each instrument, each artist, on the stage, not far away, in front of me. I do not usually appreciate the kind of rear reverb/echo which you can hear during a live event while sitting in bad seats. Also, without an accompanying video which takes me to other locations, such as some DVD concert discs do, I do not want to sit on the stage among the band, in the drums, or elsewhere, unless I get paid for doing so. Soooo, I cannot understand those who LOVE 5 channel, 7 channel, stereo/surround music etc... I want a first class live musical experience without having to actually sleep out for tickets. IMHO, MOST multichannel (more than 2) DSPs sound like a bad disco. Well now that I've dis-enfranchised most of you, I have to admit that it was listening to the Eagles 5.1 DVD that sold me on abandoning my balanced, analog, tubed, 2 channel only system. Then Sarah McLaughlan's DVD finished my 2 channel bias for all time. YET, I continue to look for the pregnant dimple on that multichannel music buzz. I found it when I first heard about ProLogic II??? ProLogic? Isn't that what we were trying to leave when we first heard discrete channel sound? Then we decided to matrix a pair of rear center EX channels... next we decide to matrix it all??? I respect Mr Fosgate. Heck I used to own a model 3a. Last week I bought a refurbed H/K AVP-2 (model 4)to matrix my rear center surround channels during EX MOVIE playback. Still, for music??? I guess I gotta experience it for myself. Till then, give me direct 2 channel bypass.




Take Care,
merc

[SteveF]

Hi, In reply to your reply. You could say that I'm running 2 sets of mains, but I'm not really. Because the mains off the DD receiver are not real true mains, in that compared to the true stereo mains. The mid/side speakers (the mains off the receiver) are really only putting out "part" of the main signal, giving me a fill-in for the sides, then there's the true rears and center. Yes the stereo mains do put out all information, including the dialogue etc., but their kept slightly lower than the center, or the center slightly louder, whichever, still giving me full advantage of the center channel. The front soundstage is immense. My main speakers are a Polk Audio SDA1-A speaker system, (SDA = Stereo Dimensional Array) and on their own they have a huge soundstage and excellent imaging. Does this make any better sense to you now?? I know it's very unconventional and unorthodox, God spare me!!
But I think, and so do a lot of other people, including a couple of people from Polk (they want to feature my system) and Sensible Sound magazine, that it's quite an idea. Hope to have given you a better picture of it this time around.
Have any of you guys seen/heard "Fantasia 2000" yet?? Wow, Stravinsky's "Firebird" is awesome. Have a good day. Peace SteveF




SteveF

[Lexman]

I think I understand a little better now Steve. Sometimes, duplication of information to additional locations can be a good thing for a "large" presentation. That must be the effect that you are getting, while still maintaining unique back end. You may be creating sort of a seamless soundstage to the back with this technique, and it does sound interesting.

In essense, Lexicon achieves this by borrowing from both the mains and rears to create side speakers. I venture to say that sometimes, we are achieving similar effects, but other times, my DSP based configuration could render a more believable soundstage by not duplicating at a time when it shouldn't be occuring.

However, one last thought. What you have is not really 7.1. As far as that goes, what Lexicon has is not 7.1. Lexicon's is 5.1 + 2 discrete matrixed sides. What you have is basically simultaneous stereo/5.1. I simply had to clarify this. There is in fact, no 7.1 commercially available material in existence. It's only 5.1 transduced through 7 channels and a subwoofer.

That's cool that they want to feature your setup.

Lex

[migliore]

7.1 is 5.1 more channels than you need

Rob




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