whats everyones favorite DIY loudspeaker?

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  • Huskerduck
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Oct 2000
    • 129

    whats everyones favorite DIY loudspeaker?

    Im getting ready to get the Adires V281 kit which has got alot of raves ............any other DIY kits for $320 that equal or surpass?




    Mark


    Ducks Meager Theater
    Mark


    Ducks Meager Theater
  • Lex
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Apr 2001
    • 27461

    #2
    Mark, I heard a 281 setup at one of our member's house's locally, and they sounded very nice. Might be hard to beat at that price!

    Lex
    Doug
    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

    Comment

    • Bing Fung
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Aug 2000
      • 6521

      #3
      Anything Thomas & Jon have their hands in :B

      I have not heard any of the better known kit designs, come to think of it the only homemade speaker I have heard are some really home made ones with Vifa drivers.... Not terribly impressive, though I belive it to be more an issue of the set up.

      I'm certainly interested in the esoteric designs like the Newform ribbons, or Raven tweeters for homebuilts.




      Bing
      Bing

      Comment

      • Patrick Sun
        Super Senior Member
        • Aug 2000
        • 1380

        #4
        Well, uh, that would be mine because, well, uh, I made them.




        PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs
        PatCave; HT Pix;Gear;DIY Projects;DVDs; LDs

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15209

          #5
          Thanks for the vote, Bing! :B

          Seriously, I think everyone's favorite DIY speakers are the ones' they build themselves!

          Regarding the Adire V281 kits, I've heard goog things about them from a variety of people, inlcuding Mike Knapp, who is an imaging fanatic at time (I like that in a person ). They offer good value, and appear well engineered. For the money, they're probably pretty hard to beat.

          Bing, I hear you loud and clear about all the Vifa based DIY kits, 6-1/2" drivers crossed over at 3 kHz; mismatch of the progressively beaming woofer polar response to the tweeter flare at 3 kHz; does some awful things to the room power response if you get the axial response right, and vice versa. Plus, I don't like the sound of plastic drivers above 1 kHz- cone decoupling and cone cry start to become obvious- whether its Vifa, SEAS, or whomever.

          Now, if you gave me $300 or so for parts, I might do something different- like a Focal 8V4412 woofer, and a modified MB Quart titanium tweeter, and a 4th order L-R crossover at 1.4 kHz. Actually, I'm doing a "small" system design like that right now because of various small speaker needs some friends and I have. It will be built in a heavily modified Woodstyle 123 REV enclosure (blond or black oak), which could be duplicated inexpensively with a small investment in MDF and time. An "upgrade" version will use an Eton 800/37 woofer and an Accuton tweeter. Box Fb is 32 Hz; But then we're well out of the $300 part cost arena if you go with Eton and Accuton!

          This design will do about 100 dB with 20 watts of power, down to 40 Hz, anechoic at 1 meter, without exceeding Xmax of the 8" driver. It's designed for a gradual roll off in the bass, so anechoic is down 6 dB at 30 Hz relative to 100 Hz; in room response with reasonable setup should be flat to 30 Hz, at 100 dB, which isn't bad for an 8" two way. Hook up a sub if you want "real" spl's.

          This isn't a design for inexpensive electronics, though; by keeping within the pistonic region of the Focal polyglas driver, and crossing over steep and low to the MB tweeter (same used in Avlon Eclipse speaker), it will be very open and transparent, with fairly uniform polar response versus frequency. If used with a reciever, it had better be one with more sins of omission than comission. In the intended apps for this speaker (those it's being designed and built for) it will be used with separates. A good budget match for music would be a passive preamp (such as Marchand PR41) and a clean lower power amp, such as Music Fidelity, Aragon 8002, or even a tube or low/zero feedback solid state design.

          And yes, we'll put the plans up when it's done. Though I don't know if it would "fit" at Klone Audio, since it's not really a klone of anything I can think of (though Avlon Eclipse is tone target, physical construction and cabinet are way, way different).

          There's another, larger, speaker on the drawing boards; it's a combination of Klone and "In Memoriam"; I'll explain that later.

          Best regards,

          Jon




          Earth First!
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          Comment

          • Bing Fung
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Aug 2000
            • 6521

            #6
            Bing, I hear you loud and clear about all the Vifa based DIY kits, 6-1/2" drivers crossed over at 3 kHz; mismatch of the progressively beaming woofer polar response to the tweeter flare at 3 kHz; does some awful things to the room power response if you get the axial response right, and vice versa. Plus, I don't like the sound of plastic drivers above 1 kHz- cone decoupling and cone cry start to become obvious- whether its Vifa, SEAS, or whomever
            Thanks for scientifically explaining what I didn't like about the Vifas Jon :W, I couldn't quite put my finger on it

            When you say plastic cones, I assume that it covers the spectrum of plastic, ie polypropylene, poly kevlar, PBT, etc... What are your preferences for cone materials, paper?

            Why isn't carbon fiber a more commonly used cone material in a high end driver? It's stiffness and characteristics can be engineered by the layup and orientation of the cone material, and it's very light for that speedy response (transient?)? Sure it's expensive, but so are the rest of the components for a "A" system.

            Does a ultra stiff driver become harsh thus paper has the best compromise of stiffness and compliance?




            Bing
            Bing

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15209

              #7
              Hi Bing,

              Actually, by plastic cones I mean the varieties polypropylene, bextrene, and other mixtures, whether mica or graphite filled or whatever.

              There are a number of different schools of thought about speaker cone design. There are different ways to handle the tradeoffs, with different results.

              At one end of the spectrum is proponents of self damping materials and gradual decoupling of the cone center from the edges, so as to try to improve the HF response. Cone materials are selected to be as self damping as possible. Curvalinear polypropylene and other plastic cones are representative of this approach, as well damped paper types with similar physical contruction.

              Possibly at the other end of the spectrum are metal cone drivers- these have very fast propagation of sound through the cone, are usually quite stiff, but once you hit the first breakup mode, all h*ll breaks loose, because the material isn't remotely self damping, and the stiffness vs. mass ratio's and total Q vary quite a lot depending on the actual material chosen (which metal, for example; aluminum is better than steel, let's say, but it's still not a very good material for speaker cones), the shape, etc.

              Also important are the use of chemical treatments which may alter the material properties; for example, the Focal Tioxid tweeter is like "anodizing" titanium, and it makes the material simultaneiously stiffer and more self damped. A very desirable combination, which why the T120dx2 is a very good tweeter in the rang of 2.5 kHz to 30 kHz, particularly compared with their earlier efforts.

              Regarding woofer metal cones, you only need look at the response curves on the SEAS Excel line to see what kind of problems you can get into; it takes a lot of crossover work to suppress those peaks at the cone resonance, and it still doesn't really change the Q of the structure, which means that any program getting into the cone (or any mechanical excitation!) will get that puppy going!

              Then, perhaps somewhere in the middle, you have damped and treated cone structures of pure kevlar fiber, or pure carbon fiber, and cones made with composites of the above. These generally perform with less coloration than the plastic cone drivers, but have similar problems. The paper/carbon fiber Scan Speak drivers are often favored over the kevlar versions, because they do have less "cone cry" in the midrange than the pure kevlar versions. The kevlar versions can work pretty well, but you need to cross them over low.

              My favorite cones to date are from Eton. They use a sandwich like structure, with a hexagonal honeycomb inbetween two layers, using a nomex/kevlar composite. Compare the cone mass on a Scan Speak 7" kevlar driver, against an Eton 370, the Eton is 1/2. Literally! This translates to better acceleration, a more extended pistonic region, and a lower Q at the high frequency peak when the cone hit's it's first full breakup mode, compared with standard kevlar or metal cones.

              Eton has what looks like some "wimpy" magnetic structures, but gets away with it and delivers good performance because of their cone design, and precision gap and assembly practices.

              Focal has some interesting woofers, but they are frustrating as a source, because most of their poly-kevlar woofers exhibit some of the same problems as other vendors kevlar drivers. One or two has promise, but their polyglas drivers are often better, from the point of how high a frequency they remain pistonic. The poly-kevlar's generally have a nicer motor, sometimes a bigger Xmax. I've only found one in the poly-kevlar series I'd consider using, but several polyglas models are pretty decent in their range.

              You can get hints from the impedance curves; small wrinkles speak of a mechanical impdance discontinuity. Another trick for those not equipped with laser inferometry is to use two test mics, one at the center of the driver, one at a cone edge; feed the preamp outputs into a scope on X-Y inputs; as long as the line stays straight with increasing frequency, you're still in the pistonic region.

              Which brings up the last point. Big "secret" to the success of Avalon, Kharma, and other high end speakers: only use the drivers in the pistonic region, and use driver selections and crossovers which maintain as uniform a polar response as possible, particularly above and below the crossover point. And of course, minimize mechanical resonance in everything, cabinets, drivers, crossovers. These are the secrets to good speaker design; everything follows from them. Ignore at your own peril! But most DIY people do.

              Happy Labor Day, everyone!




              Earth First!
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              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Bing Fung
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Aug 2000
                • 6521

                #8
                ...That my friends, is what your $5k worth of speaker buys you :W

                Wow, thanks for the brief indepth look at speaker design principles.

                I have looked at the Eton line and certainly by looks and specifications have considered them. Mind you I was looking at a predesign that utilized the Eton's and as such did not consider all the information presented above.... (typical tourist)

                So what I have learnt is a particular driver has a pistonic region (usable region with out coloration). Once this region is violated the cone will then exhibit break up modes, thus introducing sonic characteristics of the cone material, good or bad.

                How much trust can be placed in to a predesigned system that the crossovers are match properly with the drivers? I know the quick answer would be "depends on who designed it", however, it just seems that there are a lot of designs from reputable suppliers that are more a leap of faith, unless a person has the gift of knowing how a system will more or less sound on paper, and I'm nowhere near that. Most of these kits are not cheap either and as such a person (me) would be basically buying a speaker system un-auditioned.

                Here are 2 designs I have entertained the thought of building at one time or another...

                The first is based on Focals.




                So, using the information above, how will I know how it will sound and that it will be worth the expense and trouble?

                Should I be concerned about the 100watt maximum power handling?

                What about the 70hz -20khz range? that seems kinda high and really doesn't extend into the low bass region.

                Would a set of sealed subwoofers be required for this design?

                what does the cutoff frequency tell me?

                This second one doesn't tell me anything at all... but looks good :W

                ORCA Design & Manufacturing - Creator and distributor of high quality car audio products.


                I can't seem to find the Eton based system that was at ACI...




                Bing
                Bing

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15209

                  #9
                  Hi Bing,

                  Talk about hijacking a thread- we're bad!

                  The Aria 7 "Monster" is interesting looking, but almost none of the drivers used in it are currently in production. Focal has been updating drivers a lot lately, and has some more stuff in the works. You can't get the woofer or 7" midwoofer anymore, (unless it's "new old stock" (NOS)), so the crossover would not be optimum for something else dropped in. The other system is sort of interseting, but a slightly odd choice of drivers- perhaps made for reasons of matching up efficiency, given the drivers wired in series, and trying to make an easier load on the amp?

                  One thing I found for LF reproduction in a smaller speaker is that 1 eight in driver will usually out perform two 7" drivers. This is not a generalization to take to the bank, but in several specific cases it was so, not even including the cost issues. Often, the 8" has more Xmax, and an Sd (radiating area) close to the equal of the two sevens. For example, compare Eton 760/37 against an 800/37. And don't even think about the fact that the two 7's cost almost twice as much.

                  Where two sevens work nicely is in the upper bass/lower midrange, and total power handling and dynamics- hence, the upper module in the X1.

                  I've looked at a number of designs using a heavily modified Woodstyle 123REV enclosure, including two sevens (Focals and Etons) and single 8's (such as the Focal polyglas 8V4211, and the Eton 800/37, and so far it's always come out that the 8's were a better choice, and would play to lower frequencies, flatter overal response (considering bass below 100).

                  So, my guess is that Orca system with the dual 7's would need at least something like a Shiva sub. The 7K4411 does have a pronounced bobble in the impedance curve at about 600 Hz, though only some smallish irregularities in the frequency response. It's crossed over at 350 to the 5's, so that shouldn't be a problem.

                  This design from Eton, available from Madisound, uses good drivers, isn't cheap, but I've seen a plot of it that's quite flat and smooth.



                  The 11" Eton is another drive I like, and one I'm in the process of planning a system around using Accuton midranges and the Focal TD120dx2 tweeter.

                  But it would be very tough to be someone looking at these kits, and wondering whether something works or not, or whether it's worth buying. Without the software tools to evaluate what you seen in the design, or the knowledge and tools to fix up a design that might not be so great (i.e., the Speaker City MTM-18, ScanSpeak componets, but less than stellar cabinet and crossover construction), I'd be reluctant to go that route.

                  Since instead I'm a fearless (a.k.a. known occasionally as "clueless) D.I.Y.er, I figure (often erroneously) that I can engineer my way out of any corner I paint myself into! So I stick to my own designs, or "Kloning" interesting commercial products. That can often be more of a challenge, to try to figure out what was going on the original designer's head, and follow an implied line of reasoning!

                  B.T.W, most of these kit proposals I've seen are not built nearly robust enough. More wood, more bracing, intelligently used. Layered constrained panel construction, etc.

                  Best regards,

                  Jon




                  Earth First!
                  _______________________________
                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

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                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Bing Fung
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 6521

                    #10
                    Highjack indeed, Sorry Husker

                    That's the Eton Kit Jon!! It was at Madisound and not ACI as I thought The Eton 11.2

                    Yeah, now that I look at the Orca with dual 7's it's not something I would ultimately want. The Aria 7 Monster, Eton 11.2, and I would be very proud!

                    So basically the A7 Monster is unbuildable with out a lot of searching for the correct parts... Thanks for looking and sorting that out for me.

                    I'm going to have a good look at the Eton 11 just for fun However, I fear that if I painted myself into a sonic corner, I would not know how to begin to get myself out. It may be best to copy a well designed project where all the research is all ready done.

                    I know Thomas had a scaled down design based on BG planars that I entertained building, however, I was not, still am not, in a position to build, just touring

                    Under built cabinents, oh yeah, I forgot you like double laminated 1"MDF panels :B




                    Bing
                    Bing

                    Comment

                    • Huskerduck
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Oct 2000
                      • 129

                      #11
                      No Problem ,.......Highjack away
                      Thats why I asked........

                      Ive heard some pretty outstanding reveiws on the 281 and supposedly their Crossovers and design are tried tested, and proved to give you the 2 K sound for a mere $320 so I thought I would dive in and check it out.

                      In your Highjacking , some price points would be appreciated




                      Mark


                      Ducks Meager Theater
                      Mark


                      Ducks Meager Theater

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15209

                        #12
                        Hi Mark!

                        OK, just to put some perspective on things, I'll do a rough price out of my 8" two way.

                        Their are two to three levels I'm planning on building for the 8" two way (otherwise referred to as "M8").

                        Level one is the Focal 8V4211 polyglass driver, with an MB Quart MBTT1 titanium dome tweeter. I'm building two pairs of these right now for a close friend and my lady friend.



                        Focal 8V4412 Response



                        MBTT1 Tweter Response

                        2nd Level will use an Eton 800/37 woofer, and may stay with the modified MB tweeter. Which would leave a 3rd level, which would use the Eton woofer and an Accuton C23 tweeter.



                        Accuton C23 Response- note extended output to 30 kHz on axis.





                        With the Accuton, that's where things get rather expensive in a hurry. But to my knowledge, its the finest wide range tweeter in the world for a two way system. If I knew of something better for less money, I'd use it.

                        The Focal can be had for $88 at Madisound, the MB tweeter for $30 from Madisound.

                        The tweeter rear chamber is modified slightly and the front difussor is removied; an Audax screen can be used in replacement for protection.

                        The crossover is a combination of 4th order lowpass and 2nd order with zobels high pass to realize a 4th order Linkwitz Riley at 1.5-1.5 kHz. The current crossover design is modified to account for the 50 mm rear offset of the acoustic center of the woofer.

                        The enclosure is a 48L design, using a heavily modified Woodstyle 123 REV (REV means they changed the width/depth ratio's from the original Woodstyle 123). Heavily modified refers to the use of additional subpanels, bracing, and constrained layer construction, as well as a layered front panel design using layered felt for diffraction control. The finished box weighs about twice what it starts out as, but externally it looks cosmetically identical. Ports are implemented with flared port tube kits; available from Parts Express, Madisound, and others.

                        For crossover components I either wind my own inductors (I have a winding machine in Denver at ThomasW's) or buy Solen inductors from Madisound. The best bang for buck in good caps are the GE polypropylene caps at Madisound- these are low ESR, low ESL, low dissipation factor, at very good pricing.

                        Using a test box which doesn't have diffraction control in place, and with MLSA measurement time windowed to 200 Hz and above, crossover response and system response looks like this: (ignore below 200 Hz)



                        I haven't priced out the full crossover, since I buy parts in quantities and build from stock on hand.

                        If you're at all interested in this, Mark, I can post or email you crossover schematics- I'd rather email, because I don't want the schematics all over the place, and they may be tweaked up a little before "finalization". I have been preparing AutoCAD drawings of the enclosure construction, and could create PDF files of that, also.

                        Regardless, the Adire kit does look to be a good value, and now they are pre-building the crossovers on PCB's. A big plus for the Adire kit is the use of shielded drivers, particularly if you're using the speakers placed close to a TV or computer monitor. (OTOH, there are a lot of reasons NOT to place speakers close to a TV or computer monitor, but in an imperfect world, etc., etc.)

                        The Adire plans are easy to use and complete, but I would take issue with some of their suggestions, such as using a sealed cabinet design with a Qtc of 0.81, which results in a bump in the mid bass response and roll off of deep bass. It is fairly compact, and will work well as a satelite, main, or CC in HT applications. (keep in mind, I'm coming from more of a purist music viewpoint. Uh-oh, I forgot- this is an HT site, isn't it?

                        Similarly, I'm not personally keen on the LF alignment they've chosen for the ported version, but it minimizes enclosure size, and is to a degree a trade off for the somewhat high Q drivers (0.38, vs. 0.31 for the Focal).

                        And of course, the Adire 281's will have some advantages in power handling (two drivers), and from their 4 ohm load impedance. Again, this strikes me as a good choice for HT.

                        Below is the alignment used in the M8, with 44L effective box displacement.



                        This results in an F3 around 40 (anechoic), but with solid room output down to 30 Hz. Not needed with a big sub, but for a music system, particularly not too expensive, very desirable. With a single 8 they will be able to hit 100 dB down to 30 Hz before Xmax limitations.

                        These speakers are designed to be used with smaller separates or high quality integrateds, such as the Krell, Acurus, or Music Fidelity. As voiced now, they're probably a bit too "flat" and analytical for inexpensive receivers or CD players. I'm curious how they'll sound with one of the new "budget" SACD players- I expect it to be somewhat electronics dependent.

                        The weird thing about speakers is that you can build a moderate cost set of speakers like this that are good enough to hear the differences between a $1,000 power amp and a $2,000 or $4,000 amp- not that you would normally use that kind of gear with them. But it does show that there is a certain disconnect in what we can deliver for the dollar between speakers and electronics.

                        With 88 dB/watt efficiency available, 25 watts will play this fairly happily, so it may be interesting to see what some of the more esoteric small amp designs (think Aleph, Monarchy, etc.) might sound like. I'm going to be trying an Ayre V5, just for grins....

                        Best regards,

                        Jon




                        Best regards,

                        Jon




                        Earth First!
                        _______________________________
                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
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                        Natalie P Supreme
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                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • Huskerduck
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Oct 2000
                          • 129

                          #13
                          Very nice Jon,

                          Being a contractor for years and always piddling with electronics I have learned something about getting older, I can still do Enclosures in a breeze but my hands have been so abused that I dont think I could get through a crossover without lots of frustration and this is one nice thing about the 281

                          I really wish your drawings were in Ft./in. instead of cm , I havent got around to figuring out how big the enclosures are but the other selling point of the 281s was the 9" width ( perfect for the situation they need to resolve)

                          Make sure you take pictures of your project and If I dont like the 281s ( or maybe someone else likes them more....cha ching) I would consider going another route

                          Im not building Adires sealed ( unless I like what I hear then I will build 1 for a center speaker) Im either building their transmission or vented and this is whats stopping me from getting started......... I cant decide which I want to build




                          Mark


                          Ducks Meager Theater
                          Mark


                          Ducks Meager Theater

                          Comment

                          • AndrewM
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2000
                            • 446

                            #14
                            I've built the Adire 281's and I think they are a pretty good overall speaker, and at the price you can build them I would have a hard time considering something else. The vented alignment is the way I went, I had read a comment from Dan about the TL saying it really wasn't worth the extra effort/wood/weight. There's plenty of bass there, but not boomy or muddy in anyway, in fact I didn't even have a sub when I built these, and I decided that I could put that off for awhile after it also (I would believe the specs on Dan's build sheet), I would say there is good room response down into the mid 30Hz range. I don't think you'll find a better "dual-use" (HT and music) system around for the price.

                            Also, some comments on the Eton 11.2 system...I was looking at that system awhile ago and talked to a couple of people who had built them and they were all very impressed with the sound. When I had asked them if they had heard the Eton's at an Audio High end store what kind of price tag would they expect to see on it I got answers in the $8k-12k range, so mix a little builders pride in there and I would say it's probably still a winner, without designing it yourself.

                            Andrew

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15209

                              #15
                              Regarding the Eton 11.2, the cabinet drawings are direct from Eton, and as those funny Europeans are still want to do, everything is metric. The weird thing is because most scientific calculation in SI system requires using metric, I'm getting a lot more comfortable with it and have to mentally convert to do cubic feet and the like. The driver quality from Eton is first rate; the 11.2's sound like expensive store bought speakers because they use the same drivers as some expensive store bought speakers- for example, the original Avalon Ascent and the Avalon Eidolon use the 11" Eton, and both those systems are in the $15K range.

                              Speaker crossovers aren't really a "fine motor" coordination issue, in the way that electronics are; but having pre-assembled PCB's makes it a lot easier, and is a big point in favor of the Adire 281 from a casual contructor's viewpoint.
                              BTW, if you'd like, I can take the Adire driver paramters and take a pass at a redesign for a larger ported enclosure that would be tuned lower; that might be a reasonable compromise between the TL and their standard ported design. It would be a week or so till I have time- things are going crazy for me here at work with last minute preparations for PCIM conference in Chicago next week.

                              I will be putting the M8 project up in the DIY section when the "level 1" is done- I've stopped some work on it because I'm waiting for my digital camera to get back from Denver! Actaully, I can probably do a little more as long as I leave one of the shells lagging behind the other. Also, I'm preparing a "owners manual" for it, and will probably make a PDF for assembly drawings, pics, and steps, including building the crossovers. It should be fun.

                              BTW, the measurement shown above is made with a B&K 4133 mic, through my HP mic preamp, windowed at 10 msec with a Blackman/2 window, unfiltered. The Adire 281 plots are 1/3 octave filtered. I'd be curious to see how they look in more detail, but I don't know anyone in the Bay area that has a pair.

                              Best regards,

                              Jon




                              Earth First!
                              _______________________________
                              We'll screw up the other planets later....
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • Huskerduck
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Oct 2000
                                • 129

                                #16
                                Jon have you looked at their Plans? you have to hit the Link to DL the PDF. File and I would appreciate your knowledge in advise between the Vented and Transmission design http://www.adireaudio.com/cd/kit281.htm

                                I know the Vented does 39 Hz and the Transmission type will do 41Hz but to me I would like to lean towards Transmission , but everyone else does the Vented ( I suppose for Fine tuning)

                                Anyway if you have a couple seconds to check out their 2 differant designs and get analytical between Vented and Transmission I would be in your debt, they claim these are designed with their crossovers in mind , but Im sure a pro like you could find some faults,

                                If you cant get to it for a week thats cool Ill build a Transmission set this weekend ( unless Im persuaded otherwise) and I may see what you have to say and build another set to your specs as to compare ......for $340 how can you go wrong?

                                Also Im thinking 1-1/8 MDF or 3/4 MDF with Laminate 3/4 Cherry or Oak or Walnut ply for the front baffle , do you agree or is it a waste?




                                Mark


                                Ducks Meager Theater
                                Mark


                                Ducks Meager Theater

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15209

                                  #17
                                  Hi Mark,

                                  I've already downloaded the Adire 281 info- hopefully I should find a little free time tomorrow and model the 281 LF performance in a ported box, look at the tradeoffs- I suspect I'll wind up recommending one a bit bigger than they use, probably a lower tuning, also. For two 8's you should have at least a 4" ID port; if you're building the box from scratch, you've got options, like a small plinth, and spikes on the bottom, and running a flared port out the bottom of the enclosure. It will interact less in the midrange that way, too, as well as allow a lower tuning and decent diameter.

                                  Let you know what I come up with then.

                                  BTW, your construction suggestions with laminating up MDF and hardwood should work well, and I wouldn't consider them overkill. But then, "wretched excess" is thought by some to be my middle name! Hardly true, since I've never had the urge to build an 18" sub, always pretty much happy with the idea of a 15"... or two or three.

                                  Seriously, my "modified" Woodstyle boxes involve lots of hardwood oak bracing, laminated subpanels, and damping materials- you'll want to do the same thing. The X1 Klones use a minimum of doubled MDF, even for the top modules. This makes a significant difference (IMO) in midbass/midrange clarity, especially with good drivers. It's why speakers like Hales, Theil, Avalon, etc., are built the way they are. MDF is not very expensive; the hardwood is, but MDF and hardwood work well together.

                                  Regards,

                                  Jon




                                  Earth First!
                                  _______________________________
                                  We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • Huskerduck
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Oct 2000
                                    • 129

                                    #18
                                    Thanks Jon,
                                    I like Your Idea alot with moving the vent to the bottom, It makes perfect sense especially after I went to Seattle last night and went to Adires warehouse and got a better feel for what their stuff is all about. I was using 1" spikes anyways ( Is an inch enough?) or shouldnt it be like 2" off the ground. How about if I route the vent as to make a flared square vent.

                                    Speaking of Subwoofers, we dug out a fairly big 12" sub up there that they call a Dharmon (sp?)in a room about 20'x 25'x 20'tall and me standing maybe 6/8 ft away felt like someone had a fan on me from the air movement, He was kinda playin around a lil and was going from 10HZ-60HZ and around 20HZ I felt like I was scuba diving at about 110' from the pressuse building in thew room,

                                    I guess a Sub is next replacement item




                                    Mark


                                    Ducks Meager Theater
                                    Mark


                                    Ducks Meager Theater

                                    Comment

                                    • Bing Fung
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 6521

                                      #19
                                      Jon, I would be interested in seeing the "M8" Plans... Killing would be quite acceptable after viewing them :W




                                      Bing
                                      Bing

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15209

                                        #20
                                        Hey Mark,

                                        Felt like scuba diving, huh? Just a wee bit of LF sound pressure? It's addictive, you know. I think that's why ThomasW like's his bass a bit "Rubenesque" now, with the IB subs. My favorite so far is our "Aerial Stryke" sub; with the Eq dialed right, it's quite flat from 17 Hz to above 200 Hz, so it blends accurately with almost anything using an 80 Hz crossover.

                                        I took a peek at some of the finished Adire speaker info a few days ago, but didn't really have time to dwell on the details. Typical.

                                        The downward firing port should have something close to the port radius as clearance; if the port is 4", then 2" would be advisable. I'm planning on doing this with another system I'm working on- I'd like to claim this was a little piece of original thinking, but I'm just copying what Neil Patel did with the Avalon Eidolon. It allows a longer port than would normally be possilbe, and a larger diamter- the latter is the really important part; most ports are too small, and have too high a vent velocity. Flaring helps, but only so much. For dual 8's, 4" ID is the minimum I'd use. 6" would be better, but I don't know if that would calculate out to a reasonable size box. I'll let you know.

                                        Bing,

                                        Finishing up and finalizing the first level M8 plans is quite high on my priority list, because the first set is going to my best friend at work who is being "relocated" to a different job in Detroit for our company as a result of some high level politics going all the way back to Munich. I'm basically safety wired to the P. O'd position over this, and needless to say, so is his fiance'. These are for him at the apartment he'll have to get in Motor city; he's having a "going away, but not moving away" party the 29th, so now I have a firm deadline.

                                        I'll be posting all info on the Klone site and do a thread on the DIY Forum about the project, with links. I'm not sure exactly why I've gotten so jazzed over this; I think it's partly because I'm resurrecting both the name and the "feeling" of a company I *almost* started back in the late seventies with a former cohort in audio mayhem, until he died of an aortic aneurysm while I was at the summer CES of '80 scoping out the competition.

                                        And, I'm in an especially good mood this morning, becuase I found out that the Ayre V5 amp I have on order is ready almost a month early (it helps to be an old friend of the president/designer!), and should ship today or tomorrow.



                                        150W/Ch @ 8 ohms, 300W/ch @ 4 ohms- no feedback

                                        I'm going to try this out on the upper end of the SLAMs, and see how it stacks up with my Palladiums on the new speakers I'm working on.

                                        Best regards,

                                        Jon




                                        Earth First!
                                        _______________________________
                                        We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • Huskerduck
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Oct 2000
                                          • 129

                                          #21
                                          Ok Jon lets see If Im confused,

                                          the Transmission port is called out to be 3.5" x 7.5 front firing ( this is much bigger than a 4" flared)

                                          so is the clearance if I go with a 3"x7.5" port out the Bottom going to have to be like 2"-3"s?

                                          what would happen if I did some fancy schmancy routering to make little "curved tower" type 1" legs making the enclosers actually 48"s tall with the corners being little arches at 49"s tall with 1-1/2" spikes?

                                          Also since the transmission vent is supposed to be 3.5"x7.5" but the last chamber coming down is only 3" wide, could I have 1/2" up the front and 3" on the bottom? Or would this defeat the purpose of downfiring?




                                          Mark


                                          Ducks Meager Theater
                                          Mark


                                          Ducks Meager Theater

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15209

                                            #22
                                            This thread has grown into a bit of a monster, I think it would be best to take it over to the DIY section and split it into two topics; Huskerduck's 281 project, and the M8 project. We could also start another thread just about discussion of available DIY kits and similar projects.

                                            Best regards,

                                            Jon




                                            Earth First!
                                            _______________________________
                                            We'll screw up the other planets later....
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • Huskerduck
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Oct 2000
                                              • 129

                                              #23
                                              agree




                                              Mark


                                              Ducks Meager Theater
                                              Mark


                                              Ducks Meager Theater

                                              Comment

                                              • Huskerduck
                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Oct 2000
                                                • 129

                                                #24
                                                agree




                                                Mark


                                                Ducks Meager Theater
                                                Mark


                                                Ducks Meager Theater

                                                Comment

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