Best AC line conditioner/surge

[kurtholz]

Happy new years to all

i am upgrading my TV this week, want to upgrade surge protection at the same time, i'm using an older Monster 3500 now, so, what's the consensus, Monster, Panamax, Richard Gray, anyone have an opinion of which makes the best unit

i know about all the Monster product polistics, which don't enter into my reasoning, just looking for best protection and possible sound improvement if any of these actually do anything

kurt

[David Meek]

I'd have to vote for the Brickwall line of products. The primary reason is that they aren't based on MOVs which will degrade over time and repeated use.

[Andrew M Ward]

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310

these units are the best we've tested, they actually do what they say they're supposed to do, which is unusual in this type of product.

They voltage stabilize, we tested them with a variac and they were spot on, unlike all the other major Mfg’s which did virtually no voltage stabilization.

they filter and protect better then everything else we tested also.

[RobP]

Andrew, what other Brands did you test? I have a belkin FP60 on its way and I hope it does what its supposed to do.

[David Meek]

Andrew, what did you test? Surge protectors, power conditioners or both? Can you please tell us who you are affiliated with, and then describe the goals, methodology, results and units tested?

[Andrew M Ward]

Andrew, what other Brands did you test? I have a belkin FP60 on its way and I hope it does what its supposed to do.

I think you mean PF60...

Does not correct output voltage, it displays input voltage and current but if you feed it 105volts it hands 105 volts to the gear...

[ToddAnisman]

http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=310
these units are the best we've tested, they actually do what they say they're supposed to do, which is unusual in this type of product.

They voltage stabilize, we tested them with a variac and they were spot on, unlike all the other major Mfg’s which did virtually no voltage stabilization.

they filter and protect better then everything else we tested also.

An online UPS for $400? Hmmm...very good price. Can you confirm that to be an online UPS?

Tx,

-Todd A.

[Andrew M Ward]

Andrew, what did you test? Surge protectors, power conditioners or both? Can you please tell us who you are affiliated with, and then describe the goals, methodology, results and units tested?

Full function power supplies targeted at the AV market were tested, Most claimed to have "surge protection" + "power conditioning" + some claimed "voltage stabilization" + Some had "battery back-up" capability.

most a $ grand and up in price...up to $2500

We just hooked them up to a variac and moved the input voltage up-and-down to see if the units correct the output voltage provided by their outlet receptacles. We also simulated a brown out with extended periods of very low voltage (95 to 100 volts) We also looked at the sine~wave provided by the units, usually they output a kind of saw-toothed square-wave (not good)

Frankly the results were not good. The claims on the packaging are remarkable and the performance is disappointing to down right awful and misleading

I won't say openly or who specifically but they were all bad (or simply didn't have voltage correction) except the APC, it did what is said it was supposed to do.

[Andrew M Ward]

An online UPS for $400? Hmmm...very good price. Can you confirm that to be an online UPS?

Tx,

-Todd A.

more than $400... The APC S10 is $1500 retail

On-line is a stretch.
On-line means it sits in the voltage path and seamlessly voltage regulates and switches to battery in voltage outages. Thge APC, as with all non-dual conversion UPS devices is "switched" (between 2 to 7 Miliseconds) so when line voltage drops their is a slight delay between where batterys kicks on and provide the voltage...

true Dual conversion UPS devices are extremely expensive.

[RobP]

I think you mean PF60...

Does not correct output voltage, it displays input voltage and current but if you feed it 105volts it hands 105 volts to the gear...

Yes, I meant PF60, temporary dyslexia rears its ugly head again :lol:

I hope that its filtering capabilities are good. That is what I mainly purchased it for. I have a whole house surge protector, so Im good there.

[aud19]

I haven't used anyt of APC's newer HT specific products but I have some older equipment of theirs in my HT and we use their stuff on our server/critical PC's at work and will always give their gear my endorsement. Great stuff :T

I've also heard lot's of great stuff about the Brickwall products David mentioned. I'm not sure but I don't believe they do any power conditioning though.

For pure surge protection "whole house" surge protection is also not a bad idea. Contact a qualified electrician for info/prices

[Andrew M Ward]

Yes, I meant PF60, temporary dyslexia rears its ugly head again :lol:

I hope that its filtering capabilities are good. That is what I mainly purchased it for. I have a whole house surge protector, so Im good there.

Filtering is tricky to test for... no worries, they don't make any false claims, it just doesn't voltage regulate... I would go into it's software and see if you can get it to shut off it's outlets in a low voltage (Brown out) say like 100 volt shut off, that can really be damaging to gear.

it's better for the surge protector to simply switch off (disconnect) than pass low voltage... they all switch (shut off) in high voltage or over voltage situations but really very few protect for Brown-outs... check on that!

[jrd]

Have you seen these?

I'm not as electrically inclined as I'd like to be, and don't quite understand all the subtle details, but these products seem promising: http://toruspower.com/index.htm. Marketed through Bryston, which may mean nothing, but given Bryston's reputation, they probably wouldn't associate with a company making lousy products.

[ThomasW]

If all anyone wants is surge then the Brickwall units are great.

If you want RMI/EFI filters those are cheap and can be added at anytime.

If you want benefit of balanced power the best deal on the planet are the $400 'Q' transformers in a box from Equi=tech

[Glen B]

I'm not as electrically inclined as I'd like to be, and don't quite understand all the subtle details, but these products seem promising: http://toruspower.com/index.htm. Marketed through Bryston, which may mean nothing, but given Bryston's reputation, they probably wouldn't associate with a company making lousy products.

They appear to employ balanced power technology like BPT, Equi=Tech, Blue Circle, Furman Sound, etc.

[Andrew M Ward]

The biggest problem...

The biggest problem (the way I see it) is not filtering or surge protection, its voltage regulation.

Sending a perfectly filtered surge protected product 100 volts for 10 seconds is really hard on the gear.... They are called brown outs.... filtering it doesn’t keep the product from getting 100 volts...

I repeat: Voltage Regulation

Unfortunately many of our most trusted manufacturers in our industry say they make voltage regulated surge protected filtered uninterrupted power supplies. The problem is these products do about 1/2 the things they claim to do... and usually the most important feature, voltage regulation is not being done...

Just my 2 cents

[CP-Mike]

In my area, I've never seen brownouts of more than a second. The UPS for my PC records all sorts of statistics including min voltages etc. In the last six months, it had to kick in once for undervoltage (below 108 volts) for just 1 second.

I'd say the biggest problem with many power conditioners is that they restrict current. Many will say that they can only supply "1500 VA". [BTW, what's the deal with "VA"? A volt times an amp is called a watt....] Well, at nominal potential, that leaves you with only 12.5 amps. That's enough to constrict dynamics for many high-current amplifiers, unless maybe the amp is the only thing plugged in to that circuit or you never drive it hard.

What gets me is that even the "best" power conditioners, like Chang Lightspeed, or Furman, suffer from that problem. The only ones I've seen that can provide a full 2400 watts are the Shunyata Hydras, although I'm sure there are other high-priced solutions out there that can do this.

[CP-Mike]

Oh, the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet also does not restrict current flow.

[Glen B]

[BTW, what's the deal with "VA"? A volt times an amp is called a watt....]

Its not that cut and dry. When you multiply volts times amps, the wattage figure is only an approximation because you are not taking power factor into consideration. If our amplifiers represented a purely resistive load, that would not be an issue. Power conditioner manufacturers quote in volt-amps because they don't know the power factor of the equipment that will be used with their products.

[Armond]

I suggest that you go to your local electrical wholesale distributor. They can be the best source for this and can offer industrial grade products. It may not be aestheticaly pleasing but it will do the job.

[Snap]

That sucks to hear about the Pure AV gear. I was going to go ahead and get my trusty old Furman gear, but the Wife said it looked terrible, so I got the Pure AV. :nonod:

But a little note: Furman Tech Support told me, that even the top of the line Furman stuff is only going to do +/- 5 volts AC. Me and a Buddy who has a recording studio hooked his new Furman Volt Reg, and Power Conditioner up, and the volts were fluxing from 111-116 VAC. And Furman said that it was normal. I am not sure what the cut off is for under voltage. You would think that these people would give better details about their products. :rant:

[Andrew M Ward]

That sucks to hear about the Pure AV gear. I was going to go ahead and get my trusty old Furman gear, but the Wife said it looked terrible, so I got the Pure AV. :nonod:

But a little note: Furman Tech Support told me, that even the top of the line Furman stuff is only going to do +/- 5 volts AC. Me and a Buddy who has a recording studio hooked his new Furman Volt Reg, and Power Conditioner up, and the volts were fluxing from 111-116 VAC. And Furman said that it was normal. I am not sure what the cut off is for under voltage. You would think that these people would give better details about their products. :rant:

This is common
under-perofrming to non exsistant voltage regulation is the normal problem ...

[ToddAnisman]

more than $400... The APC S10 is $1500 retail

On-line is a stretch.
On-line means it sits in the voltage path and seamlessly voltage regulates and switches to battery in voltage outages. Thge APC, as with all non-dual conversion UPS devices is "switched" (between 2 to 7 Miliseconds) so when line voltage drops their is a slight delay between where batterys kicks on and provide the voltage...

true Dual conversion UPS devices are extremely expensive.

That seems more inline...I did a google search on that and came up w/ $400, maybe is a frame w/ no batteries...

I would have been shocked to see an online UPS at $400. I'd be shocked at $1000.

For what it's worth, I agree w/ you about Voltage Regulation being important. All components have a range and when the power supplies in the equipment can no longer function, all kinds of hell breaks loose.

-Todd A.

[Markmm]

So what would be some of the best ones for each range?
0-500
500-1000
1000-2000

[RobP]

That sucks to hear about the Pure AV gear. I was going to go ahead and get my trusty old Furman gear, but the Wife said it looked terrible, so I got the Pure AV. :nonod:

Snap, which model did you get? I just installed my PF60 and it really cleaned up the picture on my Pioneer TV and helped on my Projection. The voltage regulation is not that big of a deal in my setup so I wont miss it. With everything on including lights, ceiling fan, the room voltage only drops to 117 so Im good.

Also , I found that my whole house surge has protection for low voltage, so Im covered there.

[Nolan B]

I have to admit that the Belkin FP30 I bought has done a great job with my system...and even improved picture quality by elimitating some line interference I didnt even know I had.

I would have to say that Richard Grey is the best when it comes to power conditioning. I dont think however that all of RG products are infact surge protectors, infact they may be the last thing you want when a surge happens.

[georgev]

Forgive my ignorance(and pls. have patience with me), but as someone who has been looking at the area of power conditioning and still am not sure,
What is the difference b/w the apc's voltage regulation and the Ps Audio "power regeneration".
Secondly is there a really significant improvement with the addition of such a product into the system?

[caleb]

Hello George, and a good New Year to you.

Basically the PS audion system takes the mains input and cnverts to 24 volts, then "regenerates" the 24 volts back into 240 volts (this can be varied) at a smooth sine wave.

Both the actual voltage and the frequencvy of the sine wave can be adjusted to give a perfect match for your equipment.

As for significant difference?

I suppose you would have to know how bad your mains supply is before you can answer that question.

A friend of mine lives only five KM from Koeberg, but he has a terrible mains with spikes and low voltages from time to time.

He swears by his PS1000.

[Snap]

I got the PF30 as well. I have some other stuff. But I did notice that it cleaned up the picture a noticable amount. I was going to take my Furman stuff out of my pro rack, and use it for home, but like I said before the wife.

Still is disapointing, about the upper end stuff from Pure AV.

[aud19]

Secondly is there a really significant improvement with the addition of such a product into the system?

Depends on how "dirty" your power is. If you have relatively noise free and steady power you may notice little to no improvement. If there's lot's of noise and surges/spikes you may notice a large improvement.

The largest bennefit IMO is the unseen protection of your gear

[aud19]

Something interesting for Rotel owners:

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/CESmisc/APCRotelpowerconditioners.php

[georgev]

Anyone know, does APC make a 220-240v version?
I see it received POY award last year at audioholics. The S 15.
Do you know if we have a local supplier here Caleb?

[caleb]

Hi George,
Yes they do make a 240 volt version, and they appear to have a range of resellers here.

Try www.apc.com/tools for find them in your area.

[georgev]

Hi Caleb,
I can't seem to access that site. Would you be able to forward me some of the local folks in Joburg?
George

[David Meek]

George,

Try this link for the main APC page instead. Just select your country and start reading.

[Alaric]

$400 Q thingy

I have to ask-what is the little yin/yang thing in the corner of the instrument???

[Alaric]

Above,I'm referring to the link in post #14

[Kevin D]

I have to ask-what is the little yin/yang thing in the corner of the instrument???

Looks like their logo. Click on the second link in that post and you will see.

Kevin D.

[georgev]

Apalling service in "Bongoland"

Hi George,
Yes they do make a 240 volt version, and they appear to have a range of resellers here.

Try www.apc.com/tools for find them in your area.

I got the numbers of at least 10 resellers in RSA, and called them. They all said they do not know the product but will get back to me.
Two weeks later only ONE out of the whole lot got back to me to tell me they do not have a 240V version. I wonder how they all survive here.
Does anyone know if this is correct? Do they have the S15 from apc in the UK?
George.

[Skynut]

Is this a dead topic?

I like my Panamax but am thinking about either an Exactpower ep15a or the APC s15.
I wanted to try another pc to compare it to my 5510 and I will put the winner in the main rig and the runner up goes into the bedroom.

For anyone considering a power conditioner I noticed a big improvement in picture quality when I got the 5510 installed.
My t.v. is almost 10 yo now. FYI