1080p DLP projectors? Need some help on this!

[marantzsr8500]

Hi all,

Well, i dont know if any of you have heard or not, but Playstation 3 has been unveiled, and it is one of those few systems that supports 1080p. I am buying it for my son, and my current DLP projector, Marantz VP12S3 has up to 1080i, and a native resolution of 1280 x 720, which is not high enough for 1080p. Also, my screen is 110" and I use high quality IXOS cables all around.

Now, first off, is there a big difference between the 1080i I am currently enjoying and this upcoming 1080p? Also, very very few TV's support 1080p, when will DLP Projectors (specifically from Marantz) support 1080p?? I have heard for native 1080p support the projector or TV must have a native resolution of 1900 x 1440??

Oh and just so you guys know, I did end up buying the Marantz DV 9500 along with the Marantz SR 8500, and I must say, I am very happy with both those pieces!

[Nick M]

Your projector is only 720p, so even though the HD source is 1080i, you are watching a lower-quality, down-converted image that is 720p.

True 16:9 1080p resolution is 1920x1080.
True 16:9 720p resolution is 1280x720.
True 16:9 480p resolution is 854x480.

You better have some bucks if you want 1080p DLP, I'm not even sure if they make it yet. Someone else could give you a better idea on what products are available. I know 1080p LCD projector units like the Sony Qualia (sp?) run about $20k.

I'm sure the PS3 will look amazing on your 720p unit.

[Clive]

Wouldn't the resolution 480i/720p/1080i/1080p on the PS3 be selectable?

[Chris D]

Clive, I'm almost positive that YES.

As for 1080p, that's a resolution that is still a year or more away from being widely available in displays, much less affordable. A few 1080p rear projection sets are out now for moderately okay prices, but like Nick said, if you try to go front projection 1080p, you're talking about a new car price or more.

I'm glad to see 1080p capability, though. That means that it will still be cutting-edge in resolution for years to come as displays catch up to the players.

[Adz]

Your projector is only 720p, so even though the HD source is 1080i, you are watching a lower-quality, down-converted image that is 720p.

Nick,
I didn't think that you can necessarily conclude that 720p is a lower quality image as compared to 1080i. In fact, most people, I think, believe the opposite. Or, were you saying that the down-conversion process leads to the lower-quality?

[George Bellefontaine]

Nick,
I didn't think that you can necessarily conclude that 720p is a lower quality image as compared to 1080i.

Yeah I have read elsewhere that some even prefer 1080i to 720p, but I think it has a lot to do with whatever type of display is being used.

[David Meek]

It's also somewhat dependent on what you watch. Anything with a great deal of continuous motion - football, basketball, NASCAR, hydroplane racing - all seem to show better in 720p.

[aud19]

720p works better for fast motion as it's progressive and doesn't have interlacing artifacts that are more noticeable during fast motion. 1080i tends to look better with still or slow moving pictures as it offers more apparent resolution and interlacing artifcats are barely if at all noticeable with slow movement.

Also, most of the current/upcoming 1080p displays as far as I know will not be able to accept incoming 1080p signals, they simply up convert 1080i (or lower) signals. Not too mention that 1080p displays, especially projectors will likely be well above $20,000 US for a while yet. Your 720p marantz should be good for a while yet. Wait until prices come down and there's more 1080p source availability and the displays actually accept 1080p sources

[Shane Martin]

Or, were you saying that the down-conversion process leads to the lower-quality?

I believe he was saying that. That is the way it was implied to me.

Personally so far I've yet to see any 720P broadcast material that looks as good as the 1080I I have seen.

[Chris D]

Waaaiiiiiiiit... 1080p displays that can't accept a 1080p signal? Now THAT'S a lame one.

[aud19]

Waaaiiiiiiiit... 1080p displays that can't accept a 1080p signal? Now THAT'S a lame one.

Well pretty much all modern digital displays (as far as I know) are natively progressive. So when someone builds a display that has 1920x1080 pixels by whatever means, it will natively produce 1080p (same with 720p etc). Interlacing is really only usefull for CRT guns and not really relevent in modern digital displays. However broadcasters only transmit up to 1080i at this point so most (if not all) display manufacturers only build in 1080i input functionality as really, that's currently the highest out there. The displays than upconvert that 1080i signal to their native 1080p. I'm sure if/when 1080p becomes more available from sources, we'll see displays that can accept those incoming signals.

[marantzsr8500]

Thanks for the info guys.. i got lots of research ahead of me lol.

Now, some of you guys were talking upconverting 1080i to native 1080p for those new 1080p based Projectors, would that also upconvert 720p?

I am a little confused, but this is what I understand so far;
1) 1080p is a new standard, very rare, and very expensive for Projectors
2) The real current highest is 1080i
3) 1080p versus 1080i picture quality? Big diference?
4) New 1080p based DLP Projectors take incoming 1080i sources and upconvert them to 1080p, and does this also work with 720p?

Anything I am missing lol?

[aud19]

Thanks for the info guys.. i got lots of research ahead of me lol.

Now, some of you guys were talking upconverting 1080i to native 1080p for those new 1080p based Projectors, would that also upconvert 720p?

I am a little confused, but this is what I understand so far;
1) 1080p is a new standard, very rare, and very expensive for Projectors
2) The real current highest is 1080i
3) 1080p versus 1080i picture quality? Big diference?
4) New 1080p based DLP Projectors take incoming 1080i sources and upconvert them to 1080p, and does this also work with 720p?

Anything I am missing lol?

1-Yup

2-Yup

3- Depends on a lot of things... screen size, the quality of the signal/source, the quality of the upconversion etc. So big difference? All things being equal it probably wouldn't be a big difference, noticeable yes, big no. The biggest plus would be the reduction in interlace artifacts on fast moving material.

4-Any digital 1080p display will take a 1080i, 720p, 480p or 480i signal and upconvert them to the sets native resolution (1920x1080 progressive).

[Shane Martin]

1) 1080p is a new standard, very rare, and very expensive for Projectors

As long as we are focusing on Front projection YES. Rear projection is getting more in the market now.

[Nick M]

I didn't think that you can necessarily conclude that 720p is a lower quality image as compared to 1080i.

Well, considering most existing displays capable of displaying 1080i signals in all their glory are LCDs (such as stuff from Sony and Sharp), 1080i/p displays have over twice the amount of pixels as 720p displays (Roughly 2M vs 920k). I don't have extensive experience viewing material at that level, but I did see the 1080p Uber-Aquos by Sharp, and I preferred the 1080i material by a huge margin over the 720p stuff. YMMV though.

Not trying to slam 720p though, afterall thats what I'm looking at right now to purchase.

[Shane Martin]

Well, considering most existing displays capable of displaying 1080i signals in all their glory are LCDs (such as stuff from Sony and Sharp),

CRTs will no problemo too.

[aud19]

CRTs will no problemo too.

They have to be 9" guns though I belive to get ALL out of a 1080i signal.

[Miroku]

Although the Playstation 3 will support 1080p, I wouldnt expect too many game to take advantage of it.

Most developers will limit their resolution to 720p for the purposes of easier cross-platform development with Xbox 360 and also the lower res will yield faster framerates and the ability to render more stuff and get away with lower resolution textures.

This trend already exists now with the current XBox supporting 720p yet theres only a handful of games that utilize it rather than the standard 480p.

If you are going to buy a 1080p TV/projector or whatever, I would recommend waiting until you see evidence that PS3 (or anything else like hdtv for that matter) will really give you a reason to take that step up from 720p/1080i.

[Nick M]

A 1280x720 display can't display an unconverted 1080i signal. When you watch 1080i material on a 1280x720 display, the signal quality is degraded because a 1280x720 display doesn't have enough pixels.

[aud19]

The differences isn't really that bic Nic, 1920 x 540 (interlaced you only see half the frames or one field at a time remember) = 1036800. 1280 x 720 = 921600. That plus as mentioned 720p doesn't introduce interlaced artifacts.

[Nick M]

I thought 720p video held much more redundant information, whereas 1080i material had more unique information.

With 720p sources you have 24 unique frames displayed in a 3-2 progressive pattern, so 60% of the information is redundant.

With 1080i sources you have 24 unique frames (with over double the information each) split into an interlaced 3-2 pattern, so only 20% of the information is redundant.

I know TV material is different than 24fps video though from articles I've read.
Hopefully Jon or Thomas can chime in.

EDIT: For 4 Unique Frames...

720p
1-720p 1-720p 1-720p
2-720p 2-720p
3-720p 3-720p 3-720p
4-720p 4-720p

1080i
1-1080i(a) 1-1080i(b) 1-1080i(b)
2-1080i(a) 2-1080i(b)
3-1080i(a) 3-1080i(b) 3-1080i(b)
4-1080i(a) 4-1080i(b)

[Adz]

When I watch sports (most noticeably baseball) on INHD from the DVI cable box to my DVI input on my projector, I assume that's a 1080i signal being converted into 720p by my projector. I can't imagine the clarity of the picture getting any better - its intense, no artifacting or any dithering or anything like that. You can see individual fans in the stands, what they are eating, etc. I've run upstairs sometimes to see what it looks like on my 50 inch Mitsu rear projection (which of course is 480i - I'm not implying anything bad about RPTV) but the difference is like I took my glasses off.

I can;t even imagine when INHD is in 1080p out to a 1080p projector....whoaaaaaaaa, watch out. You'll probably be able to step into the screen and onto the field.
:T

[aud19]

Depends on wether it's film or video based for one Nic

[marantzsr8500]

Well guys, after talking to Marantz reps and my buddy who works there, I have decided to buy thier upcoming 1080p projector when it comes out. They could not give me a ETA, but I believe the VP12-S5 (?) will be the one with 1080p, and if it doesn't have it, then I will go for the Sony Qualia. Welll thanks for all the help guys!!

[Chris D]

Good for you, Marantz! :banana: What does that projector go for? (you don't have to tell us how much YOU paid)

[Nick M]

I'm Jealous! Hope you post back with pictures and a review!

[marantzsr8500]

Good for you, Marantz! :banana: What does that projector go for? (you don't have to tell us how much YOU paid)

Dont know yet, but shouldn't be that much off the current 15k for the current S4. My current S3 cost me 14k (bought it new from a store - very dumb of me!) I will probably end up paying same as new , because I just like new stuff more than refurbished stuff :T ). Anyway, I will tell you how it is on the PS3 and Dish once I get it lol!

[marantzsr8500]

I'm Jealous! Hope you post back with pictures and a review!

I'll try, but don't expect a professional review : ! But I will tell you guys how it is!

[aud19]

Well guys, after talking to Marantz reps and my buddy who works there, I have decided to buy thier upcoming 1080p projector when it comes out. They could not give me a ETA, but I believe the VP12-S5 (?) will be the one with 1080p, and if it doesn't have it, then I will go for the Sony Qualia. Welll thanks for all the help guys!!

Congrats :T

So did you confirm that either of those projectors can for a fact accept incoming 1080p signals when they become available? I'd make sure that they don't only accept icoming 1080i upconverted to 1080p before you put down your hard earned $$$$