A/V over Cat5

[ekkoville]

I have seen options of running A/V over Cat5 wire to some remote locations in the house and wonder if anyone has had experience with that or has an opinion on it. It seems some shielding could be lacking with the wire, but for long runs through conduit it is lot easier. There are many whole house options and I am skeptical on Cat5.

[whoaru99]

I have not personally used it, nor am very familiar with it, but I believe it is more complex than just using Cat5 for the interconnect cable.

You need "black boxes" at each end of the Cat5 to convert the signals from analog to digital(?) to analog. Since the signals sent down the Cat5 cable are digital(?), I would think the scheme is no more or no less suseptible to interference than say a computer network.

Since this method seems to introduce yet another set of conversions between signal formats, my guess is that it may be useful for general transmission, but not for critical watching/listening. I suppose like anything there are various levels of quality available depending on how much $$ you have available and how much the convenience of using Cat5 is worth versus more traditional methods.

[Snap]

Erik,
Just like racing stuff finds its way off the track and on to the cars that every day people drive, same thing happens with Pro Audio. The Pro Audio stuff gets transfered to the Home areas. (For the most part) There are several companies that use Cat5 to replace "analog" audio snakes in the pro application. Wirlwind's E Snake comes to mind. Church's in particular are wanting to save some money and space and are trying out this new way of doing things. (Not sure if it is saving anything) I have not heard of a lot of installers actually using them, and I have not installed any as of yet. I have not found the cost to be worth it. It is just not practical for me to install. The other factor is the A/D conversion, you need to pay more to get a quality A/D conversion. For live sound, not that much of an issue. Running a set of good HT speakers through it is a totally different story. If you get a cheep AD converter your sound is going to sound bad.

I have used CAT5 for remote functions. It is still cheaper and better to my knowledge, to run regular 16/2 all over the house than to get the CAT5 Stuff. (I am Not 100% Sure on that)
As far as interferance, I would say you would be fine with either analog or Digital, as long as standard installing rules were followed. (Keep it away from the power cables) And the 16/2 wire pulls through conduit just as easy as CAT5. The advantage of the speaker wire is, it does not break as easy as the CAT5 cable. You pull a little to hard around bend pulling CAT5 and you could break one of those little wires. 16/2 you can pull a lot more. And if you get 16/2 shielded you should be fine. CEDIA has a chart that will tell you the signal loss for the AWG and the ohm of the speaker.

An example is a .5 DB loss and a 11% signal loss for a 8ohm speaker and a max of 120 foot run. 14AWG takes the same loss out to 190 foot run. Running a 4 ohm speaker drops you to 21% signal loss and 1 DB loss at 130 foot for 14AWG.

Bottom line, I would say that the technology is comming but it is definatly something to wait on for a while. I am not even sure the Home application is out there yet. Niles would be my guess if it was there. But there are to many issues that need to be fixed at the start of things to go with CAT5 for the application that you are talking about now.

But that is my 5 cents worth.

[ekkoville]

Those concerns seem to be mine as well. Cat5 is definitely brittle at times and not worth the effort. Take a look at the link below, it is a company I saw advertised on a local A/V installer's website. I have since seen them on a couple of different sites for whole house audio.

http://www.zonaudio.com/intro.html

[ToddAnisman]

I would (respectfully, of course) disagree with Snap. There are now a bunch of options for running Cat5 in your home. It's more than just speaker wire; in fact it allows for localization of separate amplifiers, which can then be locally controlled. Basically CAT5 just sends the audio signal (line level) as a balanced pair, which then gets used in an amplifier stage. If the Video and audio are required then converter technology must be used. One reason I prefer CAT5 (or CAT6) is that it has many different functions (DATA, Audio, Video etc) and is relatively future proof. BSS has a great system, and DBX (for your 260's, Snap!!!)has one as well.

Here is one area where I would NOT use Cat5- For a dedicated Home theater install that is discrete- I would use Speaker wire for all the Surrounds, etc. However, i think I would up the gage to 10/2. There is less signal loss, but more importantly, less signal loss across all freq's. which is more important- a simple level drop can be made up, whereas a depression in the High freq's is more diffficult to correct over a long run.

My. 02

-Todd A.

[ekkoville]

Todd, does the BSS system use seperate amlifiers at each zone similar to the Zon system I linked, or a large multichannel amp near the source? My disire would be to be able to run audio and video feeds to different rooms. Example would be to have access to my cable box DVR in the upstairs bedroom.

[ToddAnisman]

Todd, does the BSS system use seperate amlifiers at each zone similar to the Zon system I linked, or a large multichannel amp near the source? My disire would be to be able to run audio and video feeds to different rooms. Example would be to have access to my cable box DVR in the upstairs bedroom.

The Soundweb stuff uses local amplifiers. however, I just loooked at th website and it doesn't look like it supports video dist...

https://www.bss.co.uk

-T

[Snap]

BSS has a great system, and DBX (for your 260's, Snap!!!)has one as well.

Here is one area where I would NOT use Cat5- For a dedicated Home theater install that is discrete- I would use Speaker wire for all the Surrounds, etc. However, i think I would up the gage to 10/2. There is less signal loss, but more importantly, less signal loss across all freq's. which is more important- a simple level drop can be made up, whereas a depression in the High freq's is more diffficult to correct over a long run.

My. 02

-Todd A.

Todd,
The DBX 260 does have a Cat 5 connection on the back, however..... it does not carry any audio. It is used to set up remote control functions. Let say a church uses 5 of the 6 channels for the house. They have one channel that they use for the Nusery. You would use all the power of the Drive Rack to EQ/Limit/Compress etc the speakers that you have in the Nursery. You would then run a CAT5 cable to the nusery to a Volume control, that would then control the volume to those speakers in the nursery. But the speakers are still getting the signal from 16/2 that was ran from the amp. And the Amp to the DBX 260.

There are a whole host of things that you can do with the volume controls, and other controllers connected with CAT5 cable. Niles is probably the industry leader when it comes to this sort of stuff. You can have a touchpad that transmitts all sorts of commands to a single receiver from any place in the house.

Like I said in my first post though I am NOT the formost expert when it comes to Audio over CAT5 (Or Audio Video either only been at it for a little a couple of years.) so for the BSS stuff I have not looked at it yet. Definatly worth looking into. :T

As for the cable..10/2 pretty beefy cable for home wireing. CEDIA recomends 14-18AWG for home stuff. In there Level 1 installer book they only list the signal loss for 16 AWG and 14AWG. and you are only loosing 11% and a .5 DB loss for a run up to 100ft. I would run big wire for my mains if I could. IE 12AWG. And the rest I would save the money and go with 14 or 16 AWG. I have done several homes with 16/2 and loved it. And in Churches where I am doing long runs of over 200 feet I use 14/2. And we are talking 15 in speakers with 7 inch horns.

Thanks for the info on the BSS I am going to check them out. :T

As far as Video Distibution systems now we are talking a whole lot of options! :E

[Snap]

oh yeah lots of money to. Video D/A is not cheap! (good Video D/A any ways! )

Todd,

To tired to look at the BSS stuff tonight but thanks in advance for the heads up. I definatly would like to learn about it. It could turn out to be a really neat thing to install.

[ToddAnisman]

oh yeah lots of money to. Video D/A is not cheap! (good Video D/A any ways! )

Todd,

To tired to look at the BSS stuff tonight but thanks in advance for the heads up. I definatly would like to learn about it. It could turn out to be a really neat thing to install.

You might be surprised....There are a couple of manufacturers that actualoly provide a decent VDA for around $400...(but then again, that might not be cheap...I'm thinking in terms of pro stuff....). For the life of me I can't remember the Man. Names, but I'll look them up and post back.

Your DBX outputs Line level signal. The Cat 5 controllers control the level. You then run the audio output to an amplifier - which could be local to the room. You would do this on balanced audio line, like Belden 9451. However, one little known thing is that you could actually run audio down a cat.5 Line - It's just a twisted pair, which exactly what audio is. I would use shielded wire if I did it. It's kind of a way to "multitask" your install, so you don't end up running too much cable. then when someone else moves into the house, it's relatively simple task to re-task the line for something else. Also, you could get something like a Gefen converter which would allow you to run HDMI down a Cat 5 line. Youd then have video and audio (no need to extend a balanced audio line, they can run several hundred feet w/ minimal loss, same w/ Composite video).

Go here:

https://www.gefen.com

-Todd A.

[Snap]

You might be surprised....There are a couple of manufacturers that actualoly provide a decent VDA for around $400...(but then again, that might not be cheap...I'm thinking in terms of pro stuff....). For the life of me I can't remember the Man. Names, but I'll look them up and post back.

Your DBX outputs Line level signal. The Cat 5 controllers control the level. You then run the audio output to an amplifier - which could be local to the room. You would do this on balanced audio line, like Belden 9451. -Todd A.

I agree. But I thought he was wanting to run the audio over the CAT5. Not using the CAT5 as a control with seperate wire for the actual speaker connections.

I am very interested in those manufactures. Please post them when you can.

I do pro installation. I have not seen a GOOD, (key word good) VDA for under 4 bills. I put a good SXGA 1 to 4 amp in a church but that was almost 6 bills for that. (their cost)

I still think that you would till the technolgy improves to only use CAT5 as control, or data. But that it my .02 cents.

Todd find those companies! WANT TO SEE THEM! (got a church I am doing AV for this summer that is a big job. 3 projectors 3 screens a/v and lights! New mixer and amps, eq's etc. Money for this church is TIGHT!


Thanks! :T

[ekkoville]

Hey Snap, I stumbled across a link on JimmyP's website from Audio Authority. The are introducing a A/V system that sends the signal via two CAT5 wires to another jack where you hook up the equipment. Even provides for IR control to the rack. Maybe you or Jimmy have dealt with there commercial stuff in the past. Take a look and see if it is worth it. Here is the link.

www.audioauthority.com

[Snap]

Thanks man. I have never seen that before. I am going to call them and ask about them. I am doing a HUGE custom home on a golf course in the next 3 weeks. (Pre-wire, install in about 4 months) but they have 3400 sq ft (single story house) and this might be a money saving way to do things! They are going with 22 speakers in the ceilings and 2 out side on the deck. Plus 5.1 in the great room. 2 flat plannel TV's and well the list goes on.

I will definatly take a look at this though. Thanks once again! The pictures shows RCA jacks. I wonder if I would still have to hook up a Receiver or an amp to get it to play audio in the other room? I will check the website!

Thanks so much for the link. That is awesome!

[ekkoville]

No problem, I really am interested in the HD quality with this. Could be a great alternative.

[Snap]

It really would. I am looking at it right now. You could have one HD box and through HD all over the house if it works right. Granted it would all be the same chan probably. But I do not think that it would work for my custom job that I am doing.

[Snap]

Darn it. It does not show the speaker set up in the Manual on the website. I am guessing by the looks. You would have to connect an amp or AV receiver to the Digital or RCA jacks to get audio in every room. That defeats that whole purpose of multi-room stuff for my application.

It does look like a good way to spread some HDTV around. Like for watching HD stuff in the bedroom and having the HD tunner in the HT room! THat will save you 10 to 20 bucks a month in HD box rental alone!

Great Post Erik! :T

[eddiem67]

This application looks like if you dont have any RG6 in the room, if you do, I would stick with RG6 for video and Cat 5 for audio. That is pretty much the whole house distribution std.

[ekkoville]

One option is to run the analog cables to the display if it has speakers and you aren't looking for a surround of any type.

eddiem67,

Problem with just staying with the RG6 is that with one DVR cable box, you can't spread the HD and recorded material from that box via coax. I think you would need and A/V switcher and then run several cables to other rooms.

[eddiem67]

So you are trying to get high def in every room from one box? That means that everyone in the house would have to watch what your watching. I am pretty sure the rg6 can feed the digital signal, I mean thats how it got into my house in the first place (via coax). I believe snap has coax going straight into his tv and he is getting a very nice picture in HD.

[Snap]

Eddie is right. I am NOT paying for HD TV. My Sony has an HD tunner in the TV. I am picking up only HD that is broadcasted over the air. Not even sure why I am paying the 6 bucks a month for the 480i local TV chan right now? I should just canx it and use the over the air HD stuff. When there is a bad storm my picture some times gets jacked up. But for the rest of the time it looks great! :T

[ekkoville]

I have two hi def boxes. One has a DVR in it. On more than one occasion I have wanted to watch what I have recorded late at night, or the wife has. Also, I have needed to record something and did not want lug my arss downstairs to do it. Wherever the DVR box is, I want to access it somewhere else. The plan is to run the DVR box as the main system video with access in two other rooms: master bedroom and a bonus room above the garage.

How would I send two extra rooms access to the box via coax? I would need some sort of switch and also IR for remote access.

[eddiem67]

That is correct, shoot me an email I will show you how to do this. You will have IR targets upstairs to access you DVR box that is on your rack downstairs.

[Snap]

Erik,
I just got something that I found durring a Pro Install. They have Home stuff as well. It is a great way to to do multi room systems for a reasonable price. http://www.xantech.com/

Check out the new Product the BXAUDIO 4x4. It has some sweet touch panels and a multizone amp that is included. You will still have to do a home run of 16/2 to the speakers but CAT5 to the rooms for control.

This is what I have desided on putting in the home on the golf course. The install is quite simple, and the instructions are very easy to understand. You can email me if you have any install questions about installing this.

Very nice set up for the cost. Or you can upgrade to these touch panels! :T

[ekkoville]

I went to Xantech and did a search for the bx audio piece but couldn't find anything. Can you give me a link? I have seen the panels before, but how do they integrate with the equipment?

[eddiem67]

Another option for distribution without losing quality in long runs.

http://www.wholehouseaudiocontrol.com/dept.asp?d_id=5646&l1=5646

[ekkoville]

I checked out the AudioControl site. Very good stuff, but equally hard to find vendors. Searching yields alot of reviews but little sale info so far. I think my requirements of HD broadcasts to three rooms with as little wire pulling as possible is beginning to make this hard. That is why the Cat 5 options is nice, especially when it carries the IR commands with it. If I haven't said it, I want HD Cable Box/DVR and the DVD player available in three rooms. IR commands to control it, and component connections out of the source's. There is also a piece from CE Labs, the AV501HD, that could send the source via component cable, but more than one source and audio makes for huge amounts of cable.

[Snap]

Erik,

On the road now doing live sound at a big conference will post when I get back to NC. Xantech might have all the stuff you are looking for.

Late

SNAP

[Snap]

Erik,
Xantech has a tricky website that will not shopw anything on the browser but xantech.com. No worries though. Just go to Xantech.com and scroll down. There are "new" products that are listed on the site. It is is the second product listed. You can only see the manual and some tech notes. Just click on the manual. The system is Not BLOW YOU AWAY as far as sound is concerned. But the IR control via CAT5 is pretty darn impressive!

As far as HDTV. 3 rooms equals 3 pulls! "For the most part"

Check the website for a dealer near you.

[ekkoville]

I got it Snap.....should of looked down on the page a little! I tell my wife the same thing...."there's more to the page than what you can see initialy."

[ekkoville]

My approach is always patience and research. And I am thinking that with two HD cable boxes, I will use one for the upstairs and one for the downstairs. Splitting the signal where necessary, i.e. the cable box DVR needs to be sent to two additional rooms. Can an HD channel be shown through composite cable? I think the pic quality might not be there, but that would reduce the amount of calbe's pulled.

[Snap]

No Component video Erik. And get 3 boxes of cable, or cut 3 groups and tape the ends in a stagered way so that it is 3 cables and you are only pulling one. The mini Coax is great for post contruction work, but it is more loot to get that.

There are a few brands out there that do component video amps. IE 1 in 4 out. ETC. There are a WHOLE host of ways to skin this cat that you are talking about. I bet there are 7 different people, with totally different ways that would work just fine. The deal is going to be......what do you feel comfortable with? What do you think you can install and get it to work right? And of course the bottome line.........$$$$$$$$$$

Good luck Bro.