Windows Server 2012

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  • PewterTA
    Moderator
    • Nov 2004
    • 2901

    Windows Server 2012

    This is the BEST Audio I've ever heard from a computer. Period... well at least for this moment.

    Now, it's not the easiest to get set up and there are some tweaks, but so far, it has (out of the box) impressed me more than any other OS to date. Starting off without any tweaks to it, just installing the drivers for my Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 and putting my copy of Foobar2000 on... it's already to the level I've gotten my Windows 7 machine and any of the Mac OS players I've heard.

    Has anyone tried this....?!!? My only problem is I have a Latency issue with the NIC on the computer that I'm using (which is an Nvidia 430 nForce 6150se chipset machine -- ie. OLD). So I have to keep Foobar2000 minimized while playing and it's fine, but browsing through it and it skips like crazy. Annoying, but it's got me thinking about my next PC which will work perfectly in a HTPC case.

    I'm also talking with "AudioPhil" over at Highend-AudioPC about getting his optimizer for windows 2012 (allows you to run completely in Core mode) and use J-River or Foobar2000 in a completely minimal setting. Only issue I have at the moment and am trying to work him, is I'd like to demo before I purchase his optimizer which strips and prioritizes things.... It sounds very promising and lots of people are saying it's the best they've ever heard computer audio period.

    If you're interested in trying it, I'd recommend the 180 day trial and grab a HD and throw it on and see what you think!

    Windows Server 2012 R2 provides capabilities spanning server virtualization, storage, software-defined networking, server management and automation, web and application platform, access and information protection, virtual desktop infrastructure, and more.
    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
    -Dan
  • impala454
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Oct 2007
    • 3814

    #2
    I am really trying to understand what all this guy claims to be doing with his $100 app. Unless your computer is pegging the processor all the time, then there's nothing his app will help you with. His claims are sketchy at best:
    By dramatically reducing the number of processes and threads run by your CPU, your server will greatly minimize jitter, allowing for a far more accurate and natural sound.
    Simply put: Decoding audio is not hard for a computer. Your sound quality is going to come purely from the audio driver you're using, and the software you're playing back music with's implementation of the libraries that access that driver. You can read lots about Windows based audio drivers here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...(v=vs.85).aspx

    This guy can't tell me he hears a difference in audio quality when he changes IRQ settings in his BIOS or disables SMART or VT (come on, really? it's not even in use!). And running Windows Server without a GUI? It just seems to me that the guy is either purposefully or ignorantly selling snake oil software. I'd like to see his reasoning for all these claims.
    -Chuck

    Comment

    • PewterTA
      Moderator
      • Nov 2004
      • 2901

      #3
      He's selling snake oil that is an entirely believable statement and I tend to agree. My thinking is though what he's doing is optimizing all processes that a processor is having to do. You're under the assumption that because something doesn't use much CPU, it's not taxing the system. In some ways this is right and in others it's wrong. The timing of things and anything else the system has to do besides through-putting music is time that it's well doing something else. All that can be taken into effect when considering the output of how that music sounds. It's the exact reason that Aurender S10 and NAD M50 run linux... not necessarily because it's free...but more because it allows you to minimize anything else the CPU does beside dedicate itself to outputting music. Well and the quick boot/shutdown and it's ability to basically run flawlessly forever when it's down to a minimized state.

      I really think that's what he's doing with Windows Server 2012 is basically stripping it down to the minimal needed to run exactly what one needs....which is why he recommends using JRiver, Jplay, and Foobar, because that's what they've gotten things down to working in a minimal state. I mean even though you're not using them, Cryptographic Services (2012) and Certificate Propagation (Win7) are happening in the background. And whether you like it or not, if the next clock tick on the cpu should've been your music player, but instead windows decided to swap those clock cycles with one of the other, then you've gotten what people are referring to which is jitter. Now if you minimize as much as possible then you are 'focusing' the cpu

      I wouldn't have believed it either until I've started trying things for myself. Now I'm not doing as much as what they are doing which I'll paste some of what's happening... but to me, there seems to be something to all this.

      Now is this going to be the greatest revolution the equivalent of going from a $100 DAC to say $9K Total Dac... Well no. But are you going to make things sound better... I believe you can enhance or maybe a better word phrasing is "de-color" the sound that's coming through your computer to give your DAC the best possible signal.

      In the analog world I'd sort of equate this similarly to the adjustment of the tone arm's VTA where you can adjust aspects of the sound, but it doesn't change the actual sound coming out. I really see the digital word identical to the analog world where there's a lot of room to adjust and make changes and optimize.

      I was one that really had a tough time believing that the audio off my laptop is much different from anything else. But here I have an inferior piece of hardware, in every aspect except NIC (Intel 4 1GB card on it) and possibly a better power supply... than what my laptop is capable of and it's at least as good and I really (after listening for a few hours here), am finding the sound, slightly more accurate. It's almost to a "it's sounding bright," but a little more clarity is there. And I've spent a good bit of time tweaking my laptop to get the best sound out of it. So right now I'm pretty impressed.

      Impressed enough to spend the $100 on his optimizations... no...but I'm talking with him about making a temp or demo one that people could use and if it's good enough, people will buy it naturally.
      Digital Audio makes me Happy.
      -Dan

      Comment

      • impala454
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Oct 2007
        • 3814

        #4
        I guess I'm just digging into the ones and zeroes all day for my job and it doesn't make much sense to me.

        Please don't take offence, I'm just trying to help, but I think your understanding of services, clock cycles, and threading is a little lacking. There's no clock tick happening that "should've been your music". It's not even really "music" until it's already out of the processor's hands. All the software on your computer is doing is reconstructing the data from a particular file type, stripping out the parts (headers and such) that aren't audio, and sending the payload data to a driver library which then sends it on to the DSP on your sound card. From then on (to the DAC, etc) is where the magic happens. It's basically a yes or no function. Either it worked or it didn't. This is why if you completely bog your processor, what happens? The music will skip or stop completely. The music doesn't keep playing, just with lower fidelity. It completely stops, because the data flow stopped to the DSP, because the driver stopped sending it, because the processor backed up. There's no "coloring" or timbre being added or removed based on your CPUs current level of activity.
        -Chuck

        Comment

        • mjb
          Super Senior Member
          • Mar 2005
          • 1483

          #5
          Nicely explained Chuck, and FWIW I agree with every word. It seems a bit mad to choose an OS which is inherently running more services than the "normal" version, and then go to the trouble of stripping them out again. Perhaps we should try a real time OS for audio playback?
          - Mike

          Main System:
          B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
          Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

          Comment

          • Lex
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Apr 2001
            • 27461

            #6
            I run Windows Server 2008 on my desktop at work. Let me tell you, it is the most awesome windows I have ever ran, period. It smokes Windows 7. It doesn't have the Windows 8 interface, I literally run my system for months without a reboot or any degraded performance at all with 16 gig of ram.

            I won't get involved in whatever this guy is or isn't doing to Server 2012 to optimize it. I haven't a clue, but I tend to say smoke and mirrors is my gut reaction. But base operating system wise, there is no better than Server. I will probably eventually upgrade to 2012 here, or I may just wait until I get a new box someday, and then upgrade.

            I tend to agree with what Chuck said about this. He's a quit intelligent guy when it comes to computers. I guess that's why he works at Nasa. LOL.

            Good job Chuck. Keep fighting the good fight for audio Pewter...
            Doug
            "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

            Comment

            • impala454
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Oct 2007
              • 3814

              #7
              Hey Mike, I did notice someone else had the same idea (a RTOS just for audio playback), here: http://www.ap-linux.com/ . But that still goes with the principle that processor time = audio fidelity, which just isn't the case (not to mention the drivers in Linux are probably not as good as in Windows for any given hardware). A RTOS is a huge thing in a world like our robots here at NASA, where we have 5KHz sensor data flying all over the place and being incorporated into very long chains of inverse kinematics being calculated at 500Hz. In that world, one calculation being off could make the robot move incorrectly, which could injure someone or damage equipment. And even in that world, we don't currently use a RTOS, we use plain old Ubuntu Linux and it has a quad core i7 running at 60-70% constantly. The programming on a RTOS is a real pain in the butt. Smaller robots that are simpler tend to use them (think auto manufacturing robots).
              -Chuck

              Comment

              • wkhanna
                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                • Jan 2006
                • 5673

                #8
                Originally posted by impala454
                All the software on your computer is doing is reconstructing the data from a particular file type, stripping out the parts (headers and such) that aren't audio, and sending the payload data to a driver library which then sends it on to the DSP on your sound card. From then on (to the DAC, etc)
                I agree that in theory this sounds most logical.
                In practice, however, non-synchronous delivery of data induces jitter, which depending on its severity, is audible.
                I have heard it my system in the form of pops, clicks & slew. After Dan reconfigured my Windows OS to prioritize & streamline the delivery of the data, these audible problems went away & produced increased fidelity.
                _


                Bill

                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                FinleyAudio

                Comment

                • impala454
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Oct 2007
                  • 3814

                  #9
                  I guess it depends on your definition of "fidelity". Pops & clicks in an audio stream due to issues on the computer, to me mean something isn't working properly. Fidelity to me means sound quality. My guess is he reconfigured your audio drivers and such, which resulted in better sound and I totally agree with that being the case. The drivers are doing all the work. If you're running with the standard Windows drivers there could be a lot of additional unwanted processing being added to the data before it gets to the sound card. The proper drivers (usually the manufacturer's drivers or some 3rd party custom stuff) will bypass that layer or directly access the sound card depending on hardware and libraries you have on your computer. Your processor and the usage levels don't really mean much in terms of actual sound quality. It either works or it doesn't (I would call clicks & pops not working). I.e. if you had a low frequency feedback loop on your sub, I wouldn't call fixing it an improvement in sound quality so much as fixing a problem.

                  The main thing I see as smoke & mirrors is the thought that thread prioritization or freeing up the processor affects the actual sound reproduction itself in some way, i.e. color/timbre/fidelity/whatever you want to call it. The guy selling that software claims stuff like "Bigger soundstage, holographic imaging, more 3D-effect" and "Minimizes harshness in digital sound" and "Natural air, timbre and image density" which to me are totally bogus.
                  -Chuck

                  Comment

                  • PewterTA
                    Moderator
                    • Nov 2004
                    • 2901

                    #10
                    Actually his issue was drivers. It was network drivers taking up the time of the CPU and this was with the current (at time of the PC build) Intel drivers...maybe Marvell, I can't remember. All of his files are local on the computer, so it wasn't pulling the music through the network at all. What happened was NDIS.sys (network control driver for Windows) was causing latency spikes over 2.1 ms of time from the CPU. This would cause the click and pops that he was experiencing. Changing this did not do anything for sound quality beyond eliminating the click and pops

                    To see if anything really makes a difference, I'm going to prioritize his USB interface to take priority over other threads (simple registry setting). For me on my laptop, doing this made a little bit of a change that I’m unable to figure out exactly why. Top end is where I noticed the difference. What I did notice and can re-produce consistently, is that a cymbal sustain without prioritizing the USB interface will last 3.9 seconds before I could not hear it anymore, then afterwards I consistently was closer to 6 seconds. Along with that, the cymbal also was easier for me to focus on and sounded clearer and more pronounced. By pronounced I mean it seemed louder than it did before, however, I have no way to really test that.

                    Then on Mapleshade's Music Festival CD, the first track Mellow Saxaphone by Chuck Brown, right at the 0:47 the cymbal that comes from the right speaker was more in the background and muffled. After the change, the cymbal is clear and precisely there and I even hear a little bit of the stick hitting the cymbal which I definitely cannot hear when I set it back.

                    I don’t know, interesting enough for me to continue on and see what other tweaks I can figure out make sense or not. However, is it enough for me to spend $100… no, I’m much more content putting that money into my NAD M51.

                    With each CPU Cycle, data gets processed. What data gets processed is dependent upon the priority of threads going through the CPU. So if you have your DAC set to something like WASAPI (Event) mode, then the DAC is the one demanding the data at a precise interval. If the CPU decides that at this exact single cycle that the DAC is requesting the data be pulled, it would rather process a different service thread, then that 1 or 0 that should’ve come to the DAC then creates the same effect as jitter off of a CD transport. The DAC then has to compensate for the delay in perfectly streamed data.

                    Now, to get around this, there’s buffers…which are wonderful however, if you set your DAC (or in my case MF V-Link 192) to a minimum latency and minimum buffers (only 64 samples) this requires the CPU to be able to throughput the data upon a very precise regiment of moving the data along. Heck it’s bad enough that people like WKHanna and me are willing to re-clock the entire signal by putting an atomic clock in the chain. Clock precision seems to be where most of the people notice some nice benefits in the change of their sound.

                    Now I can’t exactly say why, but for me and people I’ve tested with, the minimal amount of buffers in the chain sound the best. Mostly this revoles around clarity and PRaT. Though I would say there’s a slight bit of “weight” in the low end that comes about. Something like an upright bass has more texture to the sound of the strings against the neck or the plucking has a different sensation.

                    For me, this is all just a thing to play with and when I find something interesting I like to share it. Especially when I am still in I basically don’t believe there is reason for this…but I’m willing to keep an open mind and heck, I’ve got a bunch of PCs and over 4TB of hi-res music and a great system… why not see what I can come up with.

                    That, and as anyone on here that’s really met me can attest to, I’m a tweaker…. I like trying to make things as optimal as I can, which leads to me breaking a lot of stuff and having to repair it. I don’t think too many people would've opened up all their equipment and silver soldered everything on a whim…just because. I tried it and found a nice improvement, so I go with it. If not… well all I waste is my time (and hopefully don’t break anything as well). lol
                    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                    -Dan

                    Comment

                    • PewterTA
                      Moderator
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 2901

                      #11
                      On an interesting side note... or well back to the original thought on this Windows Server 2012... I blew out the old PSU unit was using which was a 430w PSU from a $35 old case I had gotten for someone and they have since upgraded their PC. Anyways, I blew it by accidentally not having the power shut off to it while plugging in an Intel Ethernet Server Adapter I350-T4 (4x1GB NIC card). Why a nice card like this... well it's the only one I had laying around that I figured I'd try different NICs to fix my latency issue with the on-board nice that supports Win 2102r2. I had hit the back of the PSU switch but must not have been enough and it rocked back on. So when I plugged it in, puff, smoke out of the PSU.

                      Luckily, only fried the CPU and nothing else. So anyways, I then replaced the PSU with a Corsair TX650w I had sitting around and you know what... the sound is now much closer to my Windows 7 Laptop.

                      I'm still trying to wrap my head around why a (admittedly better PSU) has made the sound almost identical to what my laptop produced, where the other PSU being a cheap (and I mean CHEAP PSU) actually had a noticeable difference. I had my friend who has a golden ear stop over and he even admitted that the sound he heard was the same as me... he just didn't know what was being changed...

                      So now I'm going to retract a little bit on the Windows 2012r2 side of things.... apparently it wasn't that it was just a noticeable difference... Windows 2012r2 itself is just slightly better (stock) than a nicely customized Windows 7 machine.

                      On another topic, I have used Audiophile-Linux and it's a very nice playback. It's on par with all the tweaked OSes I've played around with. I think its on par with all the Linux flavors out there like Voyage MPD, Daphile, HQplayer and there's a couple of others.

                      Where I think Audiophil is looking into, is he's playing with digital filters (same thing as in one's DAC) and I think this is where a lot of the difference in sound is coming from by many that are reviewing it. He's allowing one to do whatever they want to the sound. However, Phil's different versions people are all commenting on the same "differences" noticed to the sound, loss of sound stage, dynamics, "black background" in different versions and he goes in and tweaks settings in the scripts people run and they notice differences.

                      So what exactly he's tweaking between each release he does... I can't say...but I'd love to know! Curiosity part of me I guess.
                      Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                      -Dan

                      Comment

                      • impala454
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 3814

                        #12
                        I think it's great if you hear differences in the sound based on thread priority, I just don't see how it's even possible. Clicks/errors/pops/skips, yes. Sound quality/texture/<insert audiophile terms here> difference, no. All you have to do to prove it is bog the heck out of the CPU and listen. The music doesn't continue at a degraded quality, it simply stops, or errors/pops/clicks occur. The conversion from digital data to actual audible sound has nothing to do with your processor usage at all.

                        Look at it this way. Say your network card driver's thread got bogged down. It's not like a web page would load, but with jumbled up text or incorrect colors. It just wouldn't load at all, or would partially load.

                        I'd also love to know what Audiophil is claiming he's doing. Maybe he'd like to come explain on here?
                        -Chuck

                        Comment

                        • PewterTA
                          Moderator
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 2901

                          #13
                          He's on 4 different forums already... but I'm sure he'll come on and talk with us about his utility.

                          I did find out, if you contact him, he does have a trial (180 days) of his optimizer along with Windows 2012 r2 trial from Microsoft. I downloaded and followed his directions as precisely as I could as some of the settings my old systemboard doesn't have. Right out of the box (after installing drivers and my version of foobar2000 and configuring everything...I have to say it sounds very good. I tested between my customized Win7 set up and this and I would give the Win2012 a slight advantage in being a little bit more musical sounding, slightly sharper, though the sound stage is slightly less deep than what I'm used to with the Win7 machine. I feel my Win7 machine images slightly better. This is with the default Win2012 r2 installation. I know my Win7 machine has come a long way so I'm guessing I'm starting out a little bit better with 2012 than I did with Win7.

                          On to trying out his Optimizer program. First thing I did was make the changes he suggests as close as possible to anything in the Bios as well as some settings in Windows 2012. The only thing I'm not able to do is go into Core mode (cmd prompt only) as I have customized Foobar2000 beyond what the default install can run with (which works in core mode). I think I might send him my foobar installation and see if he'll figure out what needs done to allow it to work (I'm guessing there's some files that mine relies on or some service that his turns off. So, in his "optimization" process there are 4 sound setups and 4 digital filters that you can choose between (so 16 possible setups) that all they do, according to him is prioritize different threads and processes. Everything is still completely bit-perfect. With the default settings on this and doing as many of the optimizations as possible, I have to say the sound difference is pretty impressive. It's as big of an upgrade as when I moved from my Musical Fidelity V-Link to the V-Link 192 (hopefully that can give some reference for some people).

                          I highly recommend anyone that has an extra SSD or parts laying around, throw something together and get it installed.
                          Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                          -Dan

                          Comment

                          • PewterTA
                            Moderator
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 2901

                            #14
                            On a quick note, Finleyville stopped over today to pick up his Finalists from my house :cry: and I showed him what I had been up to. He gave some favorable reviews to Windows 2012 server. He heard very much the same opinions that I had of the differences between my Win7 and 2012 setups....so it was nice to have a little bit of validation that there are some differences going on here.

                            Which means I'm only partially nuts! ha ha!
                            Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                            -Dan

                            Comment

                            • impala454
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Oct 2007
                              • 3814

                              #15
                              Or we're all equally nuts :P (I kid I kid)

                              It is interesting all this Windows 2012 server stuff. I have a full MSDN subscription through work so I can grab whatever software I want and give it a go. Might try running it on my other PC when I get the time (ha, like never!). Perhaps after the holidays settle down.
                              -Chuck

                              Comment

                              • PewterTA
                                Moderator
                                • Nov 2004
                                • 2901

                                #16
                                Definitely worth the try! For the (maybe 2 hours total I've really put into setting it up) it was well worth the experience. And half of that time was finding the right drivers I could make work on the older system hardware. PITA I tell ya.

                                Though if you are going to try the optimization, then you need the trial edition of 2012 r2, he has it set so it won't do anything if you run his trial on a regular version of 2012.
                                Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                -Dan

                                Comment

                                • PewterTA
                                  Moderator
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 2901

                                  #17
                                  Another interesting development, because I really like those....

                                  I changed out my 650w Corsair Tru-Power power supply for the PicoPSU-150-XT, 102W Power Kit... I have to say, there is something to be said about less power being better for the audio signal path. A lot of the magic in the sound that first impressed me with the old PSU I was using is back. Everything is really smooth now. It's almost like it's a real joy to be listening to the system... more so than it was...which was never bad to begin with. But I'm finding I'm really liking the smoother, warmer sound, but with all the detail and clarity and quickness I'm used to. Personal Nirvana I guess!
                                  Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                  -Dan

                                  Comment

                                  • PewterTA
                                    Moderator
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 2901

                                    #18
                                    Hee hee, the turn has begun... Audiphile Optimizer is starting to get the Apple people to turn... there's been a few now that have come over stating that all the tweaks to the Apple OS as well as tweaks to Audirvana and Amarra... and they are noticing slightly better performance from the optimized Windows Server 2012. Ha ha.

                                    Cool thing too is he's working with Windows 2012 Essentials for a lower cost solution that should be identical in sound quality. So looks like there is definitely some ground being made here. Phil is doing a heck of a job keeping this thing running! I have to say I'm completely 110% happy with the quality increase of sound and there's no way I can go back now!
                                    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                    -Dan

                                    Comment

                                    • wkhanna
                                      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Jan 2006
                                      • 5673

                                      #19
                                      .....oh joy..........

                                      .....yet another upgrade I have to look forward to purchasing......

                                      .......I might consider self-termination if only my programming allowed......





                                      Just kidding, Dan......

                                      ....I have heard the software at work in Dan's system & there is no doubt as to its beneficial effect.
                                      _


                                      Bill

                                      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                      FinleyAudio

                                      Comment

                                      • mjb
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2005
                                        • 1483

                                        #20
                                        I've just spent a week with windows server 8, and the thing that amazes me is its got the same old control panels in there that have been around since windows 95. They just moved the same stuff around and added a load of pop-up rubbish. I'll pass.
                                        - Mike

                                        Main System:
                                        B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                        Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                        Comment

                                        • PewterTA
                                          Moderator
                                          • Nov 2004
                                          • 2901

                                          #21
                                          First, do you mean Windows Server 2008?? DO you mean the front interfaces (Gui), then yes that hasn't changed. Behind the scenes has changed.

                                          The real work that's making the difference is due to Windows 2012 very light OS when you drop it down into core mode and remove basically everything but the kernel and the audio/USB portions. It's becoming enough of a proponent that all the work done with the apple tweaking along with the player software is starting to fall behind in the quality that you can get out of a computer. And at the same price or cheaper than it takes to get a mac mini.

                                          I did install Win2k12 + AO on a pretty cheap computer (maybe $300 - $400 5 years ago when I bought it for my parents) and it's out performed everything, except alittle pop and click when browsing through the library, but I expect that. I also did a bunch of hardware tweaks to it, so it sound really good. I just installed Win2k12 + AO on a HP laptop that's about 3 years old (i3 or i5 can't remember off the top of my head). Getting it set up has taking a little tweaking due to network drivers, but upon finishing it up... it's really very hard to tell the difference between the two systems...

                                          So with not a lot of investment in computer parts and spending tons of money on a new/latest & greatest machine... you can get some of the best performance out there.

                                          We are talking similar levels of Aurender... at least that's what one of the testers has to compare and he's saying it's very very close in sound quality.... One of the new tweaks might actually put it over (which he's hoping is NOT the case!). lol
                                          Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                          -Dan

                                          Comment

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