New foobar2000 crossover

[Ray_D]

Several years ago I became aware of a foobar2000 digital crossover component written by Francois Bourdon (http://xover.sourceforge.net/).
It works with foobar2k, has many features and is very stable; but, it does not do two of the things I was looking for, specifically, LR4 crossovers and some way to do BSC or otherwise do base extension.

I then purchased Allocator Light, later upgraded to Allocator (http://www.thuneau.com/products.htm). This was better in that you can load driver files; but, I found the interface awkward and it did not work with foobar2k. It does have a capability to support Winamp, although like most players these days it's doing a lot of stuff I'm not interested in. It is fairly stable.

I have used both UE1 and UE2. UE2 is fairly stable; but it does not work with foobar2k, at least directly.
I can not hear any benefit to the phase flattening.
I have used some of the rerouting software with mixed success.
Having to move my Rockey around is an annoyance and the standalone version is fairly expensive.

I decided, about eight months ago, to write a component for foobar2k myself as a retirement exercise, separating the xover and the analysis.
I considered modifying Francois Bourdon's program; the source is available.
That was going to make the job much harder just to preserve a lot of capability that I think most people would not use.
More than forty years ago I programmed a lot of FORTRAN.
That left digital filtering, C/C++, Visual Studio 2010, Windows API, dlls and foobar2k interface to learn.

I have two programs which are both functional, although the analysis tool is not user friendly.
One is the foobar2k component with inputs for frequencys, gains and channel assignments (which allows muting); the other is an analysis tool
which takes FRD (three column text) files and applies filters and gains to allow the selections for the foobar2k component.
The analysis tool does 2, 3 or 4 way speakers. The crossover is only Linkwitz-Riley fourth order (three way at the moment, no time delay)
and it has a second order low shelf filter. I initially did this analysis using SE.
I'm hoping to eventually make this available to the DIY community, who will generally not have SE, so I'm creating the analysis tool to go along with the crossover.
Users will still need to make driver measurements and apply baffle effects.

I have the crossover component operating with my family room speakers.
They use two RS225 woofers, a ZA14 mid and a RS28F tweeter per side.
The computer is my oldest operating computer. It's a about 1.6GHz AMD.
It uses about 7 percent of the CPU. The amplifier is a fairly low end Onkyo which has the capability to use direct inputs
and do volume control for all. I'm sure my ears are not the most critical; but, it sounds terrific to me.
I have also used it with dual RS180s, SS10F and a NT1 with similar results.

I would like to find a couple of people who are foobar2k fans and would try it and provide feedback.
I can supply my analysis tool. It is command line driven and not tolerant of bad input.
SE is probably easier to use for those who have it.

PM me if your interested.

Regards

Ray

[---k---]

I don't use FooBar, but that sounds pretty cool, so I wanted to give you a little bump. I hope you find people who try it out.

[AdelaaR]

I don't use FooBar, but that sounds pretty cool, so I wanted to give you a little bump. I hope you find people who try it out.

I've started using foobar since 2 days now, so I still don't know much about it.
I became interested in it for it's gapless playback.
What do you use for gapless playback, ---k---?

Making an emulated crossover makes sense, especially for testing I suppose.
Sounds like a complicated piece of software to make it work exactly as it should. Good luck with that.

[Hdale85]

I've been playing around with AudioMulch and a DSP plugin called Crossover, you can do a 4way active crossover with it. Basically all the software I need is AudioMulch, Virtual Audio Cable, DSP plugin and a sound card that has 8 or more outputs (I was using a FireWire 410). It works really well though I was happy with the results. The nice thing about using AudioMulch is I can add all sorts of other filters to individual channels, like EQ, Delay, Gain, so on.

[---k---]

What do you use for gapless playback, ---k---?

I use a Squeeze box. I think it may be configured to not insert gaps between tracks, but I've never explored it. Most of the music that I listen to doesn't require/use gapless playback. And in a few cases where I do have a gap problem (I can think of one), I don't let it bother me.

[Ray_D]

AudioMulch

I've been playing around with AudioMulch and a DSP plugin called Crossover, you can do a 4way active crossover with it. Basically all the software I need is AudioMulch, Virtual Audio Cable, DSP plugin and a sound card that has 8 or more outputs (I was using a FireWire 410). It works really well though I was happy with the results. The nice thing about using AudioMulch is I can add all sorts of other filters to individual channels, like EQ, Delay, Gain, so on.

I'm not familiar with AudioMulch and that DSP plugin. Could you post links?
Is it free and does it allow you to visualize the effects of the filters and delays on your drivers. Does it interface with a library?

I have used Virtual Cable. I also have a Firewire 410, though I use 1010LT
in my main setup. These are both really high quality sound devices.

Regards

Ray

[Ray_D]

Relieved actually

I don't use FooBar, but that sounds pretty cool, so I wanted to give you a little bump. I hope you find people who try it out.

Hi Ryan

I did this for my own use and because I needed a retirement project. I was fearful of this turning into a support operation. I'm actually relieved that it's not.

Regards

Ray

[Hdale85]

AudioMulch and VAC are not free, the DSP plugin is free. Basically the way it's setup for me anything you play on you PC goes through audiomulch.

http://www.audiomulch.com/

You can also use console but it's not as powerful but it is cheaper.

This is the VST plugin

http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?plugin=CrossOver&id=950

Do you mean visualize the effect as in direct measurements? If this is what you mean you could setup a measurement mic on one of the inputs and then run something like TrueRTA or something. Maybe not as "compact" of a solution but I think by going this route you get a lot more features and adjustments you can do. I'm not sure how feature rich the foobar plugin is.

[Ray_D]

Visualize effects?

AudioMulch and VAC are not free, the DSP plugin is free. Basically the way it's setup for me anything you play on you PC goes through audiomulch.

http://www.audiomulch.com/

You can also use console but it's not as powerful but it is cheaper.

This is the VST plugin

http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?plugin=CrossOver&id=950

Do you mean visualize the effect as in direct measurements? If this is what you mean you could setup a measurement mic on one of the inputs and then run something like TrueRTA or something. Maybe not as "compact" of a solution but I think by going this route you get a lot more features and adjustments you can do. I'm not sure how feature rich the foobar plugin is.

Hi

No. I meant, how do you know what crossover frequencies, driver gains and delays you want? You need a program that can take measured driver data, apply the filters and vector add the output. I use SoundEasy; but, I thought most folks would not have that so I wrote an analysis program. It does not do polar plots; but, gets at the basic needs.

Well, the real question is how feature rich does it need to be. If you looked at the image of my system you saw that it was very flat over a very broad range. The rising high frequencies are really just that I did not bother to use the mic calibration file. You can also see from the reversed mid plot that the phase alignment at the crossover frequencies is essentially perfect. I have since added a delay capability to the plugin even though I have not found a case where it was needed.

There is an equalizer included with foobar2000 which can be used inline with the crossover to get additional response trimming. I don't use it because I like to see what's going to happen before I put in. If you like to tune so that you like the sound, it is another option.

I would be interested in hearing peoples opinions as to what features you think are required.

Regards

Ray

[Hdale85]

Well I wasn't saying it's required really. Just nice to be able to adjust each driver separately vs one EQ for all speakers. Adjusting gain on each driver can make it easier to level match different drivers that are quite different on efficiency. Also the same is true for delay. My setup was being built for a CarPC and time alignment is a big thing in a car, by being able to adjust the delay on each driver I could really get them all dialed in pretty nicely that way. Of course these would also benefit home speakers as well as there is some time alignment problems in tower designs as well, which is part of why people make a slopped back front baffle.

[Ray_D]

Misunderstanding

Well I wasn't saying it's required really. Just nice to be able to adjust each driver separately vs one EQ for all speakers. Adjusting gain on each driver can make it easier to level match different drivers that are quite different on efficiency. Also the same is true for delay. My setup was being built for a CarPC and time alignment is a big thing in a car, by being able to adjust the delay on each driver I could really get them all dialed in pretty nicely that way. Of course these would also benefit home speakers as well as there is some time alignment problems in tower designs as well, which is part of why people make a slopped back front baffle.

Hi Hdale85

Each driver in a speaker has adjustable gain and delay as well as selectable crossover frequencies. This in one of the benefits of digital crossovers, no issues with different sensitivities. Each driver in a given speaker has adjustable delays which removes the need for sloped baffles unless they are for cosmetic reasons. There is no provision for different delays between the two speakers. I have attached a screen shot of the latest four-way dialog.

Regards

Ray

[Hdale85]

Hmm well that's pretty cool. Although the delay settings are for each group of drivers such as midranges, doesn't seem you can do L/R separately. Would be fine for home use, but in a car you need to adjust them separately. Again that's what my setup was for. Does seem to be quite a bit of functions there though. One thing that would suck is that it would only work with foobar2000 where as the setup I was working on works with anything within windows.

[GammonB]

Hello Ray_D,
I'd be interested by your crossover, but need to realise a Linkwitz transform on the woofers, is it possible with your soft?

[GammonB]

Hello Ray_D,
I'd be interested by your crossover, but need to realise a Linkwitz transform on the woofers, is it possible with it?

[Ray_D]

foobar2000 xover

Hello Ray_D,
I'd be interested by your crossover, but need to realise a Linkwitz transform on the woofers, is it possible with it?

The low shelf is applied only to the woofers in the three way version and the subwoofers in the four way version and is used to extend the base, as I gather you want. You can see the effect on the low end between the blue line (woofer) and the total system line.

I still use this in my family room; but, I have not done anything new in years. I quit developing a separate simulation tool due to lack of interest and the fact that you still need good measurements, as I have SoundEasy.

You can still download it here, I think: https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,95933.0.html

Regards

Ray