Heresy for an HTPC nut- the Zenith DVB318

[JonMarsh]

This little Zenith is one of those players that's getting a cult following do to possessing the right combination of features at a very reasonable price.

Those features are dcdi Faroudja processing, DVI output, and HD upscaling on both DVI and component outputs- reportedly the latter even on macrovision protected and encrypted disks, though the manual addendum in the box doesn't claim that. Slip streaming features, I guess. My, my.

Mine came in while gone on this weeks business trip- it came with a pretty complete set of cables, including DVI, though you'd probably want something nicer than the included analog cables. Still, it's a nice touch.

MSRP, depending on who you talk to it $199 or $249. This unit is very similar to another LG/Zenith model that has been raising a stir in Canada.

I'll have some pics and further comments once I have a chance to play with it a bit. :B

~Jon

[JonMarsh]

Well, this little guy is pretty cute. :T Nice display, the remote works well, and it comes with a passle of cables, though I think I'd go with something a little more upscale; still, the component and DVI cable look like they'd get you off the ground initially without having to go out and spend something.

May not have time to get it setup and watch something tonight; the real "acid" test will be checking level calibration and seeing how it doesn on the test patterns in AVIA, especially the high frequency burst patterns when scaling to 1080i.

More on this soon.

[Pat]

Looks interesting Jon.
Can't wait to see what you find out

[David Meek]

Yeah! What Pat said. Although in my case it's mainly interest in the Faroudja processing (unless that's only through the DVI interface). The DVI performance is more of an academic item as my Pioneer Elite 610 HD-RPTV doesn't have DVI capability - thanks Pioneer.
:

P.S. That'll teach me to be an early adopter! Oh well,
:sh:

[Bam!]

You' ve tickled my curiousity.....

How would it look on a FP ? do you think ?


How about sound wise.....what's it missing....or should I ask what's it got the list might be shorter :roll: Zenith and sound why does that not seem to fit together....

Anyways....Honestly I am curious...


Merci buckets!

[JonMarsh]

Did a little testing and watching last night...

I did muster up the energy to get it hooked up to my large screen presentation monitor (NEC CRT 1280X1024 capable, multi-scan). I did some quick checks with Avia to verify brightness/contrast settings and resolution, and then checked some lengthy segments of a few favorite movies. Some comparisons were made to a Liteon 2001, another upscaling DVD player which is no longer available.

Scaling mode is set by push botton on the front panel, while the DVD is in stop mode.

First, the resolution test patterns looked great- comparable to what I get on the HTPC driving a high-res display, with minimal moire. Unlike the Liteon, there is no apparent edge enhancement, due I think to a bump in the Liteon's HF frequency response. No white crush on the component outputs, but I don't have a display to test the DVI output, which others report has some white crush. This is probably due to the fact that consumer displays use 235 as 100 IRE, while PC's use 255; if LG made the DVB318 with PC levels on DVI (Samsung did, for example, on the 931), then there is a simple explanation for the white crush issue. Because the DVI output is HDCP, you wouldn't be able to run it into a conventional PC display DVI input, I think.

For viewing fun, I got out a few old standards- Superbit Fifth Element, X2, some more conventional titles (Runaway Bride), and to check for video de-interlacing perfomrance, the first season of Smallville.

Well, OK, Superbit Fith Element looks great, but then it looks great on everything. For being 1080i interlaced, this sure looks "progressive" to me, inlcuding the angled wooden walkway near the beginning of the movie. I wonder what overall processing algorithms are being used in this unit. It has NO 480i output except S-Video and composite; only progressive and scaled component outputs- don't bother buying this unit if you wanted to run DVD through component on a standard TV.

X2 looks very good- fine detail, textures, hair, etc, all are resolved quite well - skin on the german mutant was remarkable; more 3 dimensional in resolution of textures. Which brings up a point- there is a three dimensional quality to the image which is notable, aside from resolution, and which I associate with above average color resolution and detail. Color balance and saturation appears to be quite accurate and natural.

Moving on to Runaway Bride, this is not a "high res" demo movie, which is precisely WHY I chose it as part of the test suite; but it has a wide range of shots, indoor and out, and a broad color palette, including natural skin tones. Reproduction was quite satisfying, with certain scenes revealing higher resolution in fine detail than expected. Again, it exhibits at times a markedly more three dimensional aspect to the image than the Liteon, and is comparable or maybe a skosh better than the latest decoders in NVDVD 3 on the HTPC (not yet released... don't ask )

I also tried a couple of Mirramax movies who's menu authoring gives the Liteon 2001 player fits, or makes it lock up, and the Zenith DVB318 passed with flying colors.

I plopped on Smallville because it's video sourced material, and even the latest adaptive de-interlacing algorithms in NVDVD3 show artifacts from time to time, especially on the DVD menus, but also in the program. Here's where the dcdi Faroudja video processing incorporated into the latest Genesis chips must really pay off- this is the best I've seen this DVD by far, and makes me all the more eager in anticipating Season 2 which is to be released in May.

Note, all source material viewing was done with 1080i output enabled, through component outputs. I guess this answers the question about whether Macrovision DVD's will play on the component outputs on this guy. Unlike the combo HD/DVD player LG makes (Zenith is owned by LG), component outputs appear to work for all DVDs.

Is this the best $200 DVD player money can buy? Well, only you can answer that question for yourself, but for my viewing preferences and requirements, I think it's a pretty remarkable little box. And as most of you familiar with me may know, I'm not a STB DVD player fan, having been a hard core HTPC guy since 1998. My reference for DVD output quality is a MyHD board with hardsware decoding view the Janus MPEG chip scaling DVD to 1080i. But this little box definitely has a home in my system- it rivals the MyHD solution(which requires removing copy protection for 1080i playback to work) in quality, and does so for less than the price of the MyHD board alone.

Recommended. Two thumbs and 8 fingers up! :B :T



~Jon

[JonMarsh]

Re the other quesitons...

Re sound, this is a "basic +" player, perhaps you'd say. No discrete decoding built in, no SACD or DVD-A. Does do MP3 and WMA decoding, and it is recommended to burn disks in ISO 9660 image format. This is a "video" oriented machine, and my main interest in it was the 1080i upscaling on component outputs.

Regarding projection TVs, I have every reason to think it would work quite nicely with the right sets, both RPTV and FPTV. Some, OTOH, wouldn't realize the full advantage of this unit's performance. Unit's I wouldn't recommend it for are those quarter HD projectors, like the Z1 and X1, and flat panel wide screen displays like plasma and LCD units which are limited to 848X480. No point using a 1080i player on displays like this- though many of them have inputs which will accept the signal, they throw away a lot of the information.

I have an Iiyama LCD panel which has an unusually wide range/flexible multi-scan input, and just for fun tried it out through a transcoder. Down converted to 1280X 768, the picture was quite good. Based on that, I'd say that the better flat panel displays in that resolution range would be OK fed a 1080i signal. Note, I've seen several LCD and Plasma screens side by side recently at BB, and most of them had scalers which blew; the Toshiba LCD, though, was pretty good, and had a nice, detailed image relatively free of artifacts.

Set's I'd really recommend this unit for is a carefully calibrated CRT RPTV, or a CRT FPTV with 8" or better tubes. Depending on the down conversion in the specific digital FPTV or RPTV, results might be pretty good, or not. I've seen the Sony HS20 with 1080i material, and it looks very good. Most of the scaler chips do better downconverting from 1080i than upconverting from 480P; this is also true of the Sony HS20, which apparently uses similar Genesis chips to the older 10HT and 11HT. :tv:

Last night I actually listened for a while to the direct outputs on movies, and they sound decent.

It can also be used to browse and playback JPG files, and has support for Kodak Picture CD's.

Video support is DVD, and VCD (video CD's).

Display setup options are pretty typical, including DRC on audio, and picture display mode.

There is a video mode control for the dcdi, which allows cycling between auto detection, film, or video source modes.

Both coaxial and optical digital audio outputs are available.


Let's be a little realistic, and keep in mind this is just a $200 player. Whether it's right for anyone would depend on what their specific goals are. It DOES look better than the Liteon 2001 or the budget Toshiba DVD players (3950, 3960). Some in various forums have been extolling the audio qualities of the baby Toshiba players; they're clearly a step up from most budget units, but they're NOT remotely competitive with a good thousand dollar DAC; you DO only get what you pay for, at best. (I've bought and tested one of each, and gave them away; does that say anything? I'm not giving away the Zenith DVB318.

IF upscaling to 1080i on component outputs is a useful or desirable feature for you, this is your player. ;x( I haven't been able to find a reasonable or comparable alternative. arty: :clap:

If 1080i is not important in your system, for whatever reasons, then one of the entry level combo units with DVD-A or SACD built in might appeal. Their audio performance just isn't good enough for me, but then I'm hard core there! When the Arvo's and Aragox Xmod are done, the next project is my next generation DAC with the AD1896 ASRC, Jensen transformers, and my NFB output buffers.

Unfortunately there's no easy way to see one of these, as they aren't in any of the mass market dealers in the US. The Canadian model is the LG DV7832NXC, which is in much wider distribution. You Cannucks are the lucky ones, in this case.

I'm considering getting a "low end" Panny CRT RPTV just to go with this unit, for a bit bigger screen experience, as I've been living without an FPTV for quite a while, and the PT-47X54 is availalbe at CostCo for ~ $999; I have full factory manuals and info already on calibration and disabling SVM.

Yeah, I spend so much money on DIY that I have to be a real spendthrift on my purchased equipment!

~Jon

[Cdub]

Jon,

Thanks for the detailed report! I have been following this player on other forums, but reports seemed to vary a bit. This looks like what i have been waiting for.

Not to get off topic too much, but seeing as you have evaluated the Tosh 3950/3960 do you feel these players are worthy of going through the trouble of modding? Or ones money is spent more wisely in a better source altogether?

I hope your travel schedule calms down a bit so you get to play with your new toys

Chris

[ThomasW]

Some in various forums have been extolling the audio qualities of the baby Toshiba players; they're clearly a step up from most budget units, but they're NOT remotely competitive with a good thousand dollar DAC; you DO only get what you pay for, at best. (I've bought and tested one of each, and gave them away; does that say anything? I'm not giving away the Zenith DVB318.

From one of Jon's posts above.....

[JonMarsh]

BTW, the CD sound of the Zenith is decent; not on a par with my DAC, but not bad. Not much different from the baby Toshibas. Not state of the art in any sense, but adequately pleasant and musical. It does play my black CDR's OK, which the Liteon 2001 had trouble with. It's a bit dark and congested in the presence region, the mid upper highs are a bit hard, the extreme top is lacking, and there's some congestion in the lower midrange. Bass is decent but not particularly deep; LF articulation and weight is lacking.

Amplifying a little on my earlier comments, those Toshiba's are pretty decent $60 players, but let's be realisitc about the expectations. It's all relative, they certainly don't sound as good on CD's as a $1K Sony SACD player, which in turn doesn't sound as good as the better $1K DAC's. It's all relative.

With digital, the most critical thing to fidelity is jitter reduction. On that basis, you DON'T want to be using players with an SMPS power supply (which the Toshibas have).

Cheapest really high end setup I can imagine is something like a Benchmark DAC1, which is the least expensive piece of gear I know of using the AD1896 Asynchronous Sample Rate Converter. Couple it with a decent or adequate transport.

You know, some folks (including me) like XRCD's and XRCD2, which are meticulously mastered CDs, some with 20 bit mastering, and now XRCD24. A really good redbook DAC can make most decent CD's sound better than any XRCD will sound on the majority of CD players. Think about it, and the implications for one's purchasing decisions.

[ht_addict]

Well, this little guy is pretty cute. :T Nice display, the remote works well, and it comes with a passle of cables, though I think I'd go with something a little more upscale; still, the component and DVI cable look like they'd get you off the ground initially without having to go out and spend something.

May not have time to get it setup and watch something tonight; the real "acid" test will be checking level calibration and seeing how it doesn on the test patterns in AVIA, especially the high frequency burst patterns when scaling to 1080i.

More on this soon.

For all you Canadians out there the LG7832NCX looks exctaly the same as the Zenith model. I agree with Jon that the 1080i output of this player is fantastic. If you really want to see the performance try the player with some of the latest CGI movies that have come out in a while(AOTK, Nemo, Shrek, Final Fantasy, etc). What I noticed was a greater detail to the pic when in 1080i mode. Just make sure you have a good set of component cables to show off the players capabilities. Michael TLV did a favourable review of the LG version. Heres's a link http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/exper...32_review.html

ht_addict

[LEVESQUE]

I own the LG 7832 also.

And the upconversion through component can almost go head to head with my Denon 5900. But don't talk about the DVI upconversion, because the whites are badly crushed and screwed-up (for now...).

But upconversion through component... wow! :E

The link to Micheal TLV review is really good. The 7832 upconversion through component gives the same PQ or better then the Bravo D1 over DVI on a digital display! :T

[Chris D]

Jon-

Thanks for the info. It looks like I may have a need for a player that can upscale over component outputs. I currently have a Bravo D1 that CAN do this, but it is no good over component and really must only be used for DVI output. So, this player may be of interest to me.

Do you have the capability of analyzing the DVI capability? Could you give a quick comparison of this unit's output of DVI, output of upscaled component, and any standard player's non-scaled component output?

[JonMarsh]

I don't have a DVI/HDCP input display at this time, though that may change in a month or so.

This guy checked out the Canadian version, and found that the component 1080i output is comparable to or slightly better than a Bravo D1 scaling on DVI. The DVI output of this unit reportedly suffers from white crush; my suspicion is that the used PC output levels for DVI, instead of consumer (100 IRE=255, instead of 235).

Keohi Review of LG7832

The freedom from moire pattern and high frequency response were the main issues; plus a sense of good color fidelity. In that regard, I think this unit is pretty exception; doesn't have the chroma bug, and has a nice "pop" to the image without being oversaturated. More movie like than video; which what attracted me to HTPCs instead of set top DVD players.

This review was part of the basis on which I decided to "risk" my $200. Seems like a risk that paid off well.

[LEVESQUE]

Chris.

For now, the DVI connection of the LG should not be use.

I did compare the DVI and component upscaling of the LG on my Sony 40XBR800 and my Toshiba 34HF83. And I did the same comparison with the Denon 5900 with both type of connections.

The LG upscaling through component gives 95% of the 5900 PQ with DVI. Not a big difference. Only crazy videophile like us can probably see the difference.

The LG over DVI is awesome also, but put a white scene and you will blink.

For 299$ cdn, the LG is a no brainer.

And LG is suppose to solve the white-crush with a firmware upgrade.

[Brandon B]

Another reason to buy this thing, a user on another forum has reported it has INDEPENDENT horizontal and vertical zoom, which means you FP owners can do a full panel-filling vertical expansion of the image and use a panamorph or isco II type lens without resorting to an HTPC or scaler.

Hello 33% increased brightness and vertical resolution!

He noted that this feature is not mentioned in the manual.

BB

[JonMarsh]

Heck, those folks that don't like black bars on their 2.35 aspect movies for widescreen can even "fix" that! Of course, you do lose a bit of picture on the side... :roll:

Really, this little puppy is a lot better at many things than it has any right to be for a measly $200 or so... :B :T

~Jon

[fdorogi]

Jon, excellent and thorough review - thanks.

Have you tried playing something with macrovision encoding through the CV at 1080i? I ask because the Sigma Designs literature on the EM8500 processor states that encoded material can only play at 480i/576i/480p through the CV ports. Now, this same processor is used in other 1080i players - all seem to have either hidden menus or hacks for diabling the macrovision encoding. I'm wondering what Zenith has chosen to do. (I'm not looking to do anything illegal/immoral, but I'd like it if my kids could watch their disney dvd's without me futzing around with settings)

[JonMarsh]

Jon, excellent and thorough review - thanks.

Have you tried playing something with macrovision encoding through the CV at 1080i? I ask because the Sigma Designs literature on the EM8500 processor states that encoded material can only play at 480i/576i/480p through the CV ports. Now, this same processor is used in other 1080i players - all seem to have either hidden menus or hacks for diabling the macrovision encoding. I'm wondering what Zenith has chosen to do. (I'm not looking to do anything illegal/immoral, but I'd like it if my kids could watch their disney dvd's without me futzing around with settings)

This player uses a completely different chip set- uses a Genesis chip which incorporates some Faroudja processing (they bought Sage/Faroudja). It appears to play "late model" macrovision encoded DVD's without problems, upscaled on component. That's why I bought this unit, was for this capability. I'll be using it with an NEC 9PG+ CRT front projector through a component to RGB transcoder; the projector will also have my HTPC hooked up, with a MyHD card, which does OTA HDTV, plus plays back DVD's or DVD files without macrovision or encryption, upscaling to 720P or 1080i. This board uses the Janus MPEG decoder chip, and has very nice video quality. But it's a nuisance to have to strip copy protected DVDs to the hard disk just to watch them... the Zenith solves that problem. BTW, I do have a Liteon 2001 also, but the Zenith playback quality on AVIA test patterns is better- more extended HF response, no edge enhancement.

I'm not using the DVI output on the Zenith.

I've checked the Zenith out on my NEC presentation monitor; I'm just getting the CRT FPTV setup.

Regards,

Jon

[fdorogi]

It appears to play "late model" macrovision encoded DVD's without problems, upscaled on component. That's why I bought this unit, was for this capability.

Decent 1080i through component video without emptying the bank account - I've been looking for this capability for a year. I was getting ready to pluck down for an external scaler when these players started showing up. My CRT HDTV has a poor internal scaler and is without a DVI input. Through the CV input, 480p is distorted on the edges of the screen and 720p isn't supported. 1080i input through the CV jacks bypasses the scaler, and I'm told, looks great.

I just assumed that this player used the same chipset as the Lite-on/Norcent/Momitsu three-some - my bad. Thanks for clearing this up.

[luca]

Hi,
I'm Luca and I'm writing from Italy.
I just discovered this Zenith DVB318 and I'd like to know if it's pal compatible and if it's multiregion.
Does it scales to 480/576, 720P and 1080i ?
It has the same chip dcdi Faroudja of the Philips963sa ( I'm using that with my Marquee8500 :rofl:, waiting for buying the definitive scaler).

Many thanks

Luca

[JonMarsh]

With a hack mod to the firmware it can be made region free, and I understand it will play PAL disks then. I only have one (a Schwarznegger movie, "End of Days", and I haven't loaded the region hack or tried it yet, so I can't verify. Others have reported it does play PAL upscaled to 1080i.

Regards,

Jon

[luca]

Jon,
thanks for answering me.

Can you indicate to me where i can read about people who reported "this compatibility of Pal upscaled to 720P and 1080ì ?

Thanks again
Luca

[JonMarsh]

AVS Forum. You can use google to find the URL if you're not familiar.

Regards,

Jon

[luca]

Ok jon,

find that :T

thanks for the info.
Now I have only to find a store shipping to Italy in order to test this little "jewel"

regards
Luca

[luca]

That's incredible.
It seems that we italian people cannot "play" with the very interesting electronics toys.
I' can't find a store shipping to italy ( Amazon too)

We'll be always a third country world :cry:, because the european manager have decided in this way

Luca

[kevo]

"it's a nuisance to have to strip copy protected DVDs to the hard disk just to watch them... "

Jon,
Have you tried AnyDvd (Slysoft.com) with MyHD? It eliminates the above nuisance.

[Bam!]

Jon!
My turn...

What do you think this baby `ll do on my Infocus X1 ops:

:roll:

[LEVESQUE]

Bam!

You are never listening to me! :lol:

I told you on QuebecAudio that the LG7832 was the player for you, and the LG7832 is the canadian clone of the Zenith DVB318. The exact same machine.

Go for it!

[JonMarsh]

Levesque is quite right. 7832 is the Canadian model.

On the X1, what I'm hearing is that with the player upscaling to 1080i and the projector downscaling to quarter HD (960X540), you get a slightly smoother and sharper picture than using the players native upscaling from 480 to 540. Its a bit like using the anti-aliasing mode with 3D video card game drivers, where it's rendered first at a higher resolution, than down converted to the display resolution. Not the same kind of processing, but the improvement in smoothness and resolved sharpness is similar.

Regards,

Jon

[JonMarsh]

Zenith DVB-318 tested at Secrets HT&HF

Just a little update, re the test results of the Zenith DVB318 at Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi-

The results are pretty much what I expected.

First, they observed problems with Y/C delay on the 480P and 720P output modes- about 1 full pixel, which results in the "color smearing" some have noticed at these resolutions.

They do observe 10-15 pixels of image cropping at the borders- not something that would be seen on most RPTV's, but on a FPTV like mine, you might notice it.

They observed that video levels are a little bit hot, 100 IRE being at 102-104 IRE, depending on the resolution, so on some sets (digital) you might want to turn the contrast down a skosh. This results in some white crush on DVI.

Also, on DVI there is some Y/C delay except on the 1080i output mode.

Which leads to a point- the Y/C delay in the anlog output mode (component) is almost non-existent in 1080i mode, and the player does pass below black, even in DVI mode. In fact, the performance in 1080i mode is quite, quite good- bandwidth extends beyond 10 MHz, clearly trouncing the Momitsu on component outputs (which is down
3 dB at 5 MHz).

Furthermore, some other possible contenders, like the Bravo D2 or the Samsung DVD-HD841 don't fare very well- in large measure because of MPEG Chroma bug issues and 3-2 cadence mixed flags or video flags de-interlacing problems, issues which the Zenith, with it's Faroudja FLI2310 chip sails through.

All in all, still a very impressive little unit, especially for the money.



Regards,

Jon

[Brandon B]

Sad the D2 didn't fix those issues with interlacing flags, see that all the time on my D1. In fact its deinterlacing is its worst (assuming the picture is coming out in the first place) problem.

One question, are you sure the D2 has the chroma bug? I had understood the D1 used the same decoder as the panasonics, and was free from that. Be lame of them to have added it.

BB

[JonMarsh]

Well, probably I should have relayed everything in detail, but for copyright issues I didn't think that would be fair. The D2 passed three Chroma tests and failed one. It also failed the 3-2 cadence, Video flags, 3-2 Cadence Mixed flags, Bad Edit test, Incorrect Progressive Flags test, and motion adaptive.

The Momitsu V880 failed all the same tests, and had some additinoal Y/C delay issues.

The Samsung HD841 failed the same tests, plus failed two Chroma modes.


Now, one probably should put this in perspective- these units still perform fairly well, with most material, but a "torture test" is a torture test; it's to seperate the best, very good, and "merely" good. What's remarkable, in my opinion, is how good in general these units are considering what they cost.

What's surprising isthe performance of the rather pricey Arcam DV-79. MSRP is $1799, and it offers digital video out using HDMI, not DVI. This player uses the Zoran VAddis 5 chipset (the Vaddis 7 chip is used in some of the other player releases, including Toshiba SD-6915, Samsung HD841). "Failed" tests include Chroma bug (though the subsequent filtering in the Zoran chroma filters minimizes the impact), and some issues with de-interlacing on 3-2 cadence mixed flags, 2-2 cadence film flags, as well as a slow layer change. Analog performance is quite good, though, with flat extended frequency response and no signs of Y/C delay. This player also has DVD-A support and extensive bass management and time alignment options. If they had a better de-interlacing solution and mpeg decoder free of the chroma bug, this would be a top flight model, at a commiserate price. Would be.

At this price range, though, I'd be looking at an Ayre DV-7 DVD transport, which includes such things as an SDI output option, which can feed selected scalers and processors with a direct digital video signal.

Which brings me to the last unit I should mention- the i-Scan HD scaler. This is a general purspose scaler, which is in this review because it DOES accept direct digital video thorugh SDI, as well as interlaced component, composite, and S-Video. This unit didn't fail any tests, and overall received their highest recommendation. A freiend who's in this business and genearally doesn't like scalers thinks this is the best one out there, but faults it for the choice of a wall wart switching power supply... injects some 100 kHz HF noise into the system ground at low level. But visible on a really good system (think CRT front projection).


~Jon

[aud19]

So you're saying, in a couple years we should all snap up used i-Scans for cheap and have them modded with better power supply's

Jason

[Bam!]

Alain.....Jon....

Me boughts!

Me loves!

Me thanks you!

Me happy!



oh and Alain I do listen to you! :wink: :T

[JonMarsh]

So you're saying, in a couple years we should all snap up used i-Scans for cheap and have them modded with better power supply's

Jason

You figured that one out pretty quick! :W

The i-Scan HD is a very nice unit, and still undergoing further evolution through it's firmware. If I wasn't getting such as nice picture from my Zenith, I'd probably be thinking about one, and wondering which bank I needed to knock over locally to finance it.

Now, if someone else were writing the checks, my "dream system" for video would probably go with an Ayre DX-7 as the main DVD player, paired through the SDI connection to the i-Scan HD.



If it was a smaller CRT rig I'd be using, then I would just use the Ayre, as it has 12 bit video DACs running at 8X oversampling, and a great non loop feedback video amp. But, alas, I don't have $4K to shell out right now for that combo. Still, it's nice to dream...


~Jon

[Bam!]

Duders!

I have a sort of a ....well problem....

This player....

Noisy....very noisy on the grey scale....what's up with dat ? Anyone else have this problem or am I the only salami to see this ? :lol:

Then.....480p....and 720p....suck

1080i very nice....what's up with that ?

Thanks!

[JonMarsh]

Hello Bam,


Haven't seen your problem with the gray scale. BTW, what display are you using? I'm run this through Key Digitial transcoder and into either my NEC XM29 Plus presentation monitor, or my NEC 9PG+ CRT front projector.


If you've read my reviews or comments, or those of countless others on the web in locations which will remain nameless due to our local rules, we've all pointed out that there's some color smearing on 480P and 720P which is due to Y/C delay on those outputs; also, the upscaling has more moire effects going from 480 to 720P; it's not a very nice mathematical relationship; the only way to get around that would be upscaling to a higher resolution then downscaling. Most sets that handle 720P which are native 720P will still look better downconverting the 1080i signal, and will look better than upscaling 480P signal.

I.E., my recommendation is that this could be the DVD player for you IF your preferred video mode is 1080i, such as with a CRT RTPV, CRT direct view running at 1080i, or a front projector which is either native at 1080i (like mine) or down converts well from 1080i to it's native resolution.

Be careful about reaching conclusions about gray scale and color reproduction if you have a digital projector; they do have to do an A/D conversion, and getting the right "window" on the signal as well as having a quiet converter is important. I've taken this unit to a friend with a Sony VPL-10HT, and while it looked better than his other STB DVD player and gave his HTPC a run for the money, there was posterization and other artifacts which aren't present in my system, because of his digital projector.

In this regards DVI would probably be better, but there is a white crush to the very top end of the DVI white scale. This may be do to the fact that the Zenith is a little hot on output levels; maybe that's not due to an analog scaling error, but the digital processing. A true 100 IRE comes out between 102 and 104 IRE depending on the resultion setting.

My last comment is that hey, this is a "budget" player, and expecting be-all, end-all performance for $200 or less probably isn't realistic, since I've owned a couple of DVD players that cost 5X-6X what this one does, and this more than competes well with them, for what I think it's intended function is(upscaling on 1080i). Yeah, it would be good if it had great 480P and 720P, too, but for me, it does the one really important thing right, so I can forgive the other quirks. Sort of like finding a good woman, you know; none of them are perfect, and some come with pretty high price tags to boot.

Regards,

Jon

[malcky]

anyone know where I could get one of these machines shipped to the UK?

[ThomasW]

The bad news is that the production run for the US has been sold out and units are now backordered. And the current buzz is that the next generation models are getting some 'changes' (not necessarily for the better).

You might have better luck getting the LG from someone in Canada.

But don't despair. there's been a new pacific rim upsampling player popping up every few months. And so far each new model one has been better than the last.

[Bam!]

Jon!

sorry it took so long to get back....internet is down at home these days.... anyways....my buddy who also has the Lg 7832....brought his over last night...

Here's the thing...

The snow effect in the a particular grey/black is really annoying me....

The stairs on shoulders, bridges whatever....annoying

The blacks are not black

This is after doing a pretty good calibration using DVE and Avia....

I compared it to a Denon 2200 and a Toshiba progressive scan...

Clean as a whistle...

The toshiba....is always out of focus in my opinion but whatever

The blacks on the Denon! :E

All and all the LG is a great player and does things way better than other players but it does other things way worst...

My quest for a player is still going on I guess...

However Denon does interest me....

[James W. Johnson]

The blacks on the Denon!
>>>>>>>>


Yep, I have been thru litterally 10 players since last October and the Denon 2200 resides as the house player.
BTW , not that it matters but at least 3 of those player were very high on the Secrets Shootout.

After going thru what I have gone thru , I have no desire whatsoever to pursue this Zenith at all.

Save yourself some leg work, get a 2200 and be done with it for awhile.

[JonMarsh]

Bam,

Did you calibrate your display for each player you were evaluating using AVIA or VE test disk, so that 0 IRE and 100 IRE are at the correct voltage levels? Everyone's player is a bit different, and so are the displays- without adjusting for the specific player and display, you're making an apples to oranges comparison. That would be like dropping a sub into a system without adjusting the LFE levels.

Many of the posters on the AVS forum had the same comments you do, until they set the brightness and contrast propoerly for the player using AVIA or VE.

If you're trying to use the LG player at 480P, you won't be happy. Ditto for 720P. OTOH, at 1080i this is a pretty nice player.

And believe me, on a CRT projector, the blacks are BLACK. :W


Regards,

Jon

[Sonnie Parker]

I don't know that I would recommend the 2200 over the 318. DVD Benchmark/Shootout pretty much has them rated the same. The 2200 actually has more marks against it than the 318 and if it weren't for the cropping issue it may have scored the same or a point higher than the 2200.

As stated in my review in this section of the forum I compared my calibrated 2900 to the un-calibrated 318 on my 2HD and they were neck and neck as far as PQ. The 2900 scored much higher on the shootout than the 2200 and the 318. The major problem on my 2HD was the 318 did not crop properly but on my Toshiba 65" RPTV it was definitely better PQ than the 2900 and had no cropping issues... not sure why the difference... maybe it was that the 2900 can handle a 97" image better than the 318.

And here's a quote from my review thread from another member here:

I was only concerned about PQ, not audio. And this player was the best, just a notch under my Denon 5900, but a notch over the 59ai and Bravo D1.

I did try it side-by-side against a Pio Elite 59ai and a Bravo D1, and the PQ was better on the LG (Zenith).

That's pretty stout to say it's a notch under the 5900.

I don't know about all the testing patterns on AVIA, etc., all I can tell ya is what my eyes are seeing and they are not perfect eyes but it's the same flawed eyes looking at images from both players.

[aud19]

My guess Sonnie, as to why the 2200 looked better on the FP than your RPTV... You have your Toshiba set at 1080i don't you? Your FP is 720p. Just read the WS Review (July issue) with a review of the Denon 5900 and they found they prefered both the 720p upsampling and even the 480p to the 1080i upsampling as the interlacing introduced interlacing artifacts on 1280x720p displays. As your RPTV is likely set to interlaced 1080i the upsampled 1080i of the 318 player produces a better 1080i picture than the 2200 being scaled by the TV to 1080i.

Jason