Liteon DVD player

[Andrew Pratt]

This little guy is starting to generate some interest given its ability to scale DVD's up to 1080i via its component outputs. (it can scale 480P as well if you disable macrovision) It also appears as though with some tweaking you might be able to install a hard drive into it as well...and the best part is its very cheap and readily available at places like NCIX.com or Newegg.com


http://www.kitsapcomputers.com/lvd02.htm

[Burke Strickland]

Compared to the Sony or Pioneer manuals, the documentation provided by Liteon did not fare too well.

Uh oh. If that's their benchmark, prospective users are in BIG trouble. :>)

Getting past that, if they'd add SACD, DVD-Audio, HDCD decoding and confirm that it plays back DVD+RW (heck, better still, let it RECORD DVD+RW) :>) then we'd really be on to something. :>) (It already has a LOT of goodies for techno-geeks who like to play with their equipment even more than they like to watch movies or listen to music.) Still, $139 US for a unit that is region free and will read either NTSC or PAL discs it looks pretty darned good!

Burke

[Andrew Pratt]

I'm curious about it becasues of its abilty to scale to 1080i (or 720P) to see if the improves the image I see on my projector....I'm going to have to play with my notebook and see how those resolutions look in comparison to see if its worth getting one to replace my trusty denon 1600. I wonder if the boys at secrets will be doing a review on this?

[Chris D]

veerrrrrrrry interrrresteeeeeng.... another player that "upconverts" a DVD. No DVI output like the Bravo D1 or Samsung HD-931 or 935. (The 935 is brand new, will be hitting the shelves soon) Also is not a universal player like the other models I mentioned, although the new HS-935 is supposed to add DVD-A.

I didn't see a price for this one.

Me, my next player is going to have to be a universal. The new Denon players look like they should fit the bill, especially the 5900 which will upconvert over DVI, once it becomes active. But BIG $$$$.

[Chris D]

Oh, and Pr@, you may want to check out the Bravo D1. It's only $179 now, and even Secrets is saying the picture is blowing all other players away--but ONLY over DVI. All other outputs suck.




CHRIS

[David Meek]

$179 for the best image available today? Wow!

Okay, gotta open the briefcase and pull my DVI-diatribe out. Those of us early adopters that spent many thousands of $$$$$ on Hi-def capable displays - in my case a Pioneer Pro Elite 610 - aren't being allowed to reap the benefits of our early financial donations to the industry because there is not any effort by ANYONE to give our non-DVI equipped systems a DVI retrofit!

Bastards.
:2fingers:

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. . . .




David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

[Andrew Pratt]

Right neither Erik or I's PJ's have a DVI input so the Liteon with its 1080i over component is what makes this more useful for us then the Bravo.

[Chris D]

Ah, yes... that would be quite important, wouldn't it? Pr@, do you have a price on the Liteon? The Samsung HD-931 and 935 also upscale over component, I believe, but the picture has been stated as being not as good as the DVI output from the same player. I'd be interested to have the two compared side by side factoring in cost.

[Andrew Pratt]

I think you can get the Liteon under $150US at newegg

[Chris D]

$150?????!?!?!?!!? Whoa! I must dig more for this unit!

[Claude D D]

You get what you pay for guys.

If you buy a cheap player don't expect it to do double duty as a cd player.Disc access is also usually painfully slow.Audio is usually terrible.Build quality is light-weight(don't sneeze near the player or it may fly of the shelf)and don't count on a cheap player lasting more than a couple of years before it dies.

They might be fine on entry level HT in a box systems with 32" or smaller tv's but in a better quality system that uses a large HDTV RPTV or Front projo forget it.Don't forget that magazines can sometimes be biased towards reviews of products that also pay for advertisments with them.But hey if you try it out and it fills the bill for you,then fine.Just don't expect miracles.

Nobody ever regrets buying quality!

[JonMarsh]

I think I understand the reasoning behind your comments Claude, and in general I agree with them...

However, the Liteon player is intriguing, becuase it's a lot like a STB HTPC. (Set Top Box Home Theater PC). Now of course, that's something of a contradiction in terms, so I'm sure I should explain.

I'm something of an HTPC aficianado, having used them since about 1999; especially becaus then with the right hardware and software you could get progressive playback scaled to native resolution on high res displays, at a time when Progressive 480P was still a glimmer in the high for set top players.

The Liteon player uses their LTD163/5 16X DVD ROM drive, not a standard consumer mechanism for STB. This drive has good DVD performance, and actually rather remarkable DAE performance, not something normally the province of DVDROM drives. You can get a better brand name at a higher price for a DVD ROM (Pioneer, been there, done that, recommend them). For $35, it's hard to argue with. Probably production on mainland China. Runs in UDM33, so it's pretty high speed, and it reads virtually any media format except SACD!



BTW, the LTD165 is not normally available in the US and Europe, as it's region free- there are places that carry it, though. Email if you need to know.

The player electronics are based on the Sigma Designs 8500 chipset, which is a pretty decent cost effective part. Sigma Designs produced the original RealMagic hardware card for DVD, back when most PC's didn't have a prayer's chance of decoding MPEG in software; that card was my first experience with DVD on a high res PC, running on a 450 MHz Celeron. (OK, so it was a 300 MHz overclocked to 450 MHz!

Image not available

The EM8500 single-chip DVD decoder offers the unique features needed for next-generation progressive DVD players. Advanced capabilities include playback of DivX™ Video, WMA, MP3 and MPEG-4 (MP4) files, no chroma upsampling error, analog YPbPr/RGB video outputs with optional scaling up to HDTV resolution, 8-bit full-screen OSD with alpha blending and flicker filter, S/PDIF and 2-channel I2S digital audio outputs and a digital video output to support DVI/HDCP. A wide variety of media types are supported, accessible through a powerful navigation engine.

Real Magic is doing chipsets for a lot of the new HD sat box sets, which include digital video PPV, HDTV, etc. Check out their site sometime if you're curious.

Frankly, if someone came to me, as an engineer, and asked me for suggestions for building a relatively high performance sub $200 player, using pretty much "off the shelf hardware", these are the kind of component subassemblies I'd be recommending.

Now, frankly, I'd be happier if they were using the ADI 12bit DAC's at 228MHz, like used in the Ayre D1 three years ago, and now appearing in the new Sony DVP CX777ES, but the DAC is included in the base chipset (cost effective, remember?). It DOESN'T have the Chroma bug, which puts the decoder ahead of a lot of units still on the market, including $1K plus price points.

I like the idea that if the laser goes out, all I have to do to repair it is chunk a new $35 dollar DVDROM drive in it... that's the most common repair issue with CD and DVD players. You can't even get one of the "nice" players opened up for diagnostics for $35... much less replace it your self, as if you're working on a PC. BTW, did I mention the firmware is LINUX based? Current version is 229; you can update the firmware by downloading a ZIP file which has a Nero burnable image, burning it to CDROM, then powering up the player with the disk in it.

Cool. :B

Let's face it, not every one has the where with all for $3000 preamps, $6000 power amps, and $8000 projectors; I consider myself lucky that I sort of fit in that category; but I really get a kick out of seeing high bang for the buck products that are made with intelligent use of modular technology.

Especially if you like collecting DVD's from other regions, this might be a player to check out.

I've got a serious mind to pick one of these up soon and do a "mod" number on it; at least the same treatment I find works for dejittering CD ROM drives (OSCON caps, improved power supply, sheilding VLSI chips (reduces EMI), improved local power bypass). That often does some very nice things without spending a lot of money. The hoot is that one could easily compare a modded ROM drive with an unchanged one; a lot easier than doing upgrades on a Philips CDM12 mechanism and trying to figure out what works and what is a waste of time (you can't pick up CDM12's at your local Computer supply shop!)

Best regards,


~Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[ThomasW]

I ordered a LVD-2001 on Sunday from zipzoomfly.com for $151 including free second day air shipping.

Also picked one of the bare Lite-On DVD drives for a measley $35 (really cheap insurance IMO). Stuff should be here Wed/Thur.

I'll post a review comparing it to my JonMarsh signature HTPC feeding a 'classic' Sony 400Q




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Lex]

Outstanding post Jon, great info. This is an interesting box, any pictures of it?

Lex

[Lex]

Ok, I saw it now, so it's not gonna win any beauty contests. Who cares!

Lex

[Andrew Pratt]

Hmm now that it has Jon's seal of approval I'm even more interested :twisted:

[JonMarsh]

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a "Seal of Approval"; but it's quite interesting- interesting enough that I'm planning on ordering one to play with, along with a spare DVD ROM drive.

Just to have a good region free unit makes this attractive, as I'm over in Europe now and then on business and occasionaly pleasure, plus there are movies released earlier there or in different versions which are interesting.

I expect after I get a few hours on it (early mortality failures which would be under warranty), I'll look at the possibilities for tweaking up the power supply and boards- maybe check the EMI filters in the video output, and tweak them, too. Something else to do in my copius spare time.


~Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Claude D D]

Like I said,I bet it sounds poor as a CD player.But for watching movies who knows?Maybe it would be ok.

Look at the inside of a good Denon,Sony ES or Marantz or similar quality DVD player and then tell me about the build(power supply,digital and analog isolation,chassis constuction,etc.) quality of the Liteon.

I don't want to offend you Jon but allthough video performance can be quite impressive, HTPC's generally are not noted for providing a sweet digital audio front end.

[ThomasW]

I don't want to offend you Jon but allthough video performance can be quite impressive, HTPC's generally are not noted for providing a sweet digital audio front end.

Not to worry Jon's pretty thick skinned

My HTPC just sends a S/PDIF signal to the pre/pro same as the Lite-On. I've yet to hear a pre/pro at any price that I'd consider using for serious listening. So for DVD soundtracks I 'tolerate' using a pre/pro because there are no serious alternatives for multichannel (excepting the big Theta) and I can't afford one of those.....

So IMO, the concept of a 'sweet digital front end' is an oxymoron.....




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Well, I'm still pretty retro myself, and usually just use a PCIM digital output into one of my DAC's (which have pretty solid jitter rejection); though I've had surround in the past, I don't at the moment. When watching movies, I'm more into optimizing the picture as well as possible; hence the HTPC thing, an HDTV card with hardware MPEG decode, and my raid array for extracted DVD VOB files, which have been recompiled into a single movie file with the audio stream of my choice to playback on the HDTV hardware board (outputs 1080i, 720P, seperate from main video card, and SPDIF).

My interest in this unit is especially driven by region free DVD playback, though the scaling to 1080i could be very handy for some specific projectors. I expect I'll need to review the roll off in the output EMI filters and tweak that a little bit, but who knows?

And nah, my skin is pretty thick- everyone has a different perspective and different goals.

Digital front ends are a funny thing- after spending a lot of time working on DAC receivers and digital front ends, I value a front end that rejects and reclocks data as accurately (sonically) as possible. But even "audio jewelry" is no guarntee of great performance; though my Sony SCD777ES is a decent transport, my best sounding playback transport is a Philips CD player that I've been into from the bottom to top- with new power supply, and totally re-worked transport mechanism and electronics.

Regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[ThomasW]

Ok it's here......

Played a quick section of Space Cowboys ( it's the only DVD I could easily access due to all the remodeling)

S-video picture quality is quite good. Am using 4X3 letterbox mode since the 16X9 screws up the the proportions of the picture. I'll play with 480P (now that the Macrovision has been disabled) when Jon's available by phone for tech support. He currently traveling on business.

Sound quality is similar to that of my HTPC, which is quite good but not world class.....

Did have a few video hicups during heavy action segments. I saw someone on the dvdrhelp forum comment about this.

I don't have a copy of Nero so am unable to burn the newest firmware.

Loads and runs like a PC, not a DVD player. Some folks were complaining about the remote being super slow, it's not speedy but works fine.

More info to follow later.....




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[ThomasW]

Here's a follow-up

Got the appropriate 400Q settings fron Jon so I was able to use the 1080i output from the player.

Bought a copy of Nero and upgraded the firmware.

And finally found my SuperBit copy of 'The Fifth Element', and away I went....

Image quality is really outstanding considering this is a $150 player. Not quite has high a playback quality as my HTPC; but at fraction of the cost, having one of these as a 'back-up' machine is really a no brainer.

So :grab: one of these before they are replaced with the 'newer' model 2002 that lacks the hidden menu for defeating Macrovision and the region free settings.

PS: These are a higher quality unit when compared to the standard low buck players from China (Apex/etc). Case is metal not plastic. Included are 2 PCMCIA cards for memory, obviously these can also be utilized in a suitably equiped laptop.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

I put in my order from NCIX for one of these today so I should have it early this week and I'll report back what I find compared to my Denon 1600 unit though my 1HD projector.

[Andrew Pratt]

I created a cd with the demo nero software but for those having problems here's a zip file of the cd contents.

[Brandon B]

Interestingly, that shot of the interior looks very nearly identical to the Bravo D1. Same PS board, and nearly the same processing board (obviously minus the DVI bits). And also obviously different loader, although the Bravo also uses a standard IDE interface and power cable. In fact, several people have replaced their (abysmally poor) FUSS loader in the D1 with a LiteOn drive.

Sort of underscores that Sigma is distributing "kits" with their board to build machines around, and are the ones who should be answering for the performance problems both Vinc and Momitsu are having. Given that both those machines are having operational issues, I will be somewhat surprised if this one does not.

BB

[JonMarsh]

From what I've heard, a lot of the operational problems stem from the loader/drive mechanism. Each firm does their own overall code. The drive that comes with the Liteon, though one of their cheapest, is apparently a big step up from what Vinc and Momitsu use. Also, for even slicker operation, you can upgrade to a Liteon 166H drive for about $35 from most places, including Central Computer and ZipZoomFly.

Again, let's put this in perspective: $150, region free capability, PAL playback, and analog output upscaling, using a computer style drive mechanism on IDE UDMA bus. Oh, and it reads digital camera pictures, too. And plays MPEG4 disks (mostly a custom proposition at this time). MP3, too. (yuck!)

That it sometimes spit's in the eye of some recent vintage DVD players which sell for up to $2K is just a small bonus. :LOL:

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Andrew Pratt]

Jon what do you think the chances are that we could replace that card reader with a hard drive and have it playing movies from that are? It seems possible if you could get the firmware tweaked or am I off base?

My 2001 should be here today or tomorrow so we'll see how it compares to my Denon 1600 though my projector

[ThomasW]

what do you think the chances are that we could replace that card reader with a hard drive and have it playing movies from that are? It seems possible if you could get the firmware tweaked or am I off base?

Well technically it's a linux based HTPC, but I doubt that the LiteOn has any motivation to do this. Some of the open source software code folks could give it a shot, but they would need to rewrite the firmware

LiteOn has just introduced a new product the LVW-5001. This looks like the hot tip for 'archiving' video tape, LD's, etc, to DVD-R




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

Well my Liteon arrived today and I've been playing with it this afternoon on my Studio Experience 1HD projector. Honestly at first I was really excited about trying it given the early hype then I started reading conflicting reports and people saying the differences were subtle so I lowered my expectations and more or less was just open to seeing what the differences were. With that in mind I started playing with the Liteon just before supper tonight. The first thing I did was flash the firmware to the latest version and connect it where my Denon 1600 used to sit (component connection to my Rotel 1098 and an optical cable) I then fired up Avia for a look at the resolution patterns at 480P, 720P and 1080i. After that it was onto some demo clips of Shrek and Gladiator. As others have mentioned before the 720P option looks really soft and isn't aa mode I'd recomend at all. So that leaves us with 480P and 1080i which to me look very similar but both my cousin and I both felt the 480P option looked a little sharper which was very disapointing. So basically for me it didn't impress me enough for it to dethrone my trusty Denon 1600 machine esp. since I also really like the Denon as both a CD and DVD-A player so I'm going to return the Liteon (or sell it to a local friend to use with his toshiba RPTV that needs a 1080i signal to squeeze)

[Sonnie Parker]

Thanks for being the ginny-pig for us Andrew. It's a good thing you can get your $ back.

[Kevin P]

Sounds like a cool little gizmo. I could almost see picking one up and using it w/Avia to calibrate the 1080i mode on RPTVs (such as mine). It's probably cheaper than a HD signal generator. One question, can it do RGB(HV) video or just Y/Pr/Pb?

I don't think I'd be replacing my 25-pound Sony DVP-S9000ES with the Liteon though.

Another situation where this player would be nice to have is with newer Toshiba and Hitachi RPTVs that internally scale 480i/480p to 1080i. I would guess the Liteon would do a better job and it would be like using a 480p player on TVs that display 480p natively.

KJP




Official Computer Geek and Techno-Wiz Guru of HTGuide - Visit Tower of Power
My HT Site

[ThomasW]

[rant mode on]
The LiteOn is designed to upscale to 1080i. And it does a very good job of this when one is using a projector that has the ability to handle 1080i as a 'native' resolution.

1/4 HD format projectors like the Z1/1HD are down scaling when fed with a 1080i signal. This means that the video signal is being processed twice. Once by the LiteOn and again by the Z1/1HD. I'm reasonably sure this is the reason some people are seeing a softer pic with this player.

Regarding reports of good HDTV reception on Z1/1HD, remember that OTA/cable HDTV is a different encode/decode process as compared to DVD-video. And the 1/4 HD projectors are only processing the signal once (downscaling).

Comparisions should be apples vs apples; so the 1080i playback quality of the LiteOn-2001 should be compared on projectors that can use this resolution

The LVD-2001 offers region-free playback, defeatable MacroVision, the abiltiy to completely replace the internal mechanicals for a measley $35US, and it offers virtually every A/V playback mode except DVD-A and SACD. So for my money it's a steal......
[/rant mode off]

PS: the audio quality for CD playback is pretty darn good too.....

arty:




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Andrew Pratt]

I'm just reporting what I saw Thomas if you see something different on your projector that's good to hear as well. I don't disagree this machine offers an awful lot for your money and I was all set to keep it but with my lowly budget projector its not doing what I'd hoped it might.

[ThomasW]

One question, can it do RGB(HV) video or just Y/Pr/Pb?

If my projector is set to RGB, the image from the LiteOn is only shades of green. When set to Y/Pr/Pb all is well.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[ThomasW]

They pushed back the release date of the next 2001 firmware upgrade. But when available (probably mid-late Nov) it will include these features per email from the LiteOn support staff

Dear Sir,

We sincerely apologize for the changing date of the latest firmware release
because of the software
development.
Since the date still can't be confirmed ,but one thing can be sure is the
improvement list.
Here you are:

1.*.srt
2.*.ogg
3.folder structure for mp3
4.some improvement of the Divx

Thanks for your understanding and keep on supportinf us.
Best Regards!

theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Brandon B]

From what I've heard, a lot of the operational problems stem from the loader/drive mechanism. Each firm does their own overall code. The drive that comes with the Liteon, though one of their cheapest, is apparently a big step up from what Vinc and Momitsu use. Also, for even slicker operation, you can upgrade to a Liteon 166H drive for about $35 from most places, including Central Computer and ZipZoomFly.

If you read all the D1 threads, it becomes apparent the (agreed) very poor loader is not really the issue, rather the firmware. The main impact of the crappy FUSS Audio loader is sloooow performance.

Many of us with the D1 have replaced the loader with one or many superior units and seen some to no improvement in operation. It seems to primarily eliminate the "pickiness" with non-pristine disks, but all my disks are in perfect shape and I still ahve glitches occasionally.

Also, the Momitsu V880 (again same components) is experiencing many of the same issues. It seems to be less reported I would guess due tot eh far smaller number of units sold in the US.

My understanding from Vinc is that the D1 is built from an OEM kit, where basic firmware is provided, and extra features can be provided, or the firmware can be modified/replaced by the VAR. I suspect Vinc had chosen the former path originally, but is contracting outside help to do the latter in response to the issues.

I have only seen one report by a single user where the Liteon had problems with a scratched disk which played better, but not flawlessly, in his old pioneer deck.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the Liteon to have any issues, I just think the potential is there. Hopefully, with Liteon being a larger, more capable company, they have brought their skills and resources to bear on the issue to prevent it.

BB

[Brandon B]

Another wrinkle -

One guy who has been modding the D1 heavily and has contacted Sigma Designs to get a development kit says he believes that the 3 players so far (Bravo, Momitsu and LiteOn) all ignored Sigma's recommended parts list in attempts to hit low price points (specifically the loader I imagine) and that he thinks this "failure to follow mfr guidelines" is the source of the issues. Not sure I think that fully explains the problems, although it is plausible. When a deck based on this kit comes out and operates flawlessly, that will vindicate Sigma in my eyes.

Incidentally, have seen several more LiteOn owners complaining of D1-like performance issues at "the other forum". Any of you guys who have one seen any evidence of the glitches?

BB

[ThomasW]

Obviously I can't comment about the D1 since I'm using a 400Q with 1080i.

But personally I'm not sure what all the other bitching and moaning is about.

I see no ringing, no EE problems, no problems with the whites being crushed, etc, etc.

As a matter of fact yesterday I ordered a second unit to keep in reserve since the 2002 doesn't support upscaling to 1080i. Jon and I will probably use it as a test mule for some modest modifications (power supply, shielding, etc).

Given the ~$150 price point it's not surprising that corners were cut to get the machine to market. No one is stating that the LVD-2001 is the holy grail of DVD players. I know better performance is available, but line-doublers/quadrouplers and similar hardware is just a little spendy in comparison.

All in all given the very modest price, the overall performance is pretty amazing.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[ThomasW]

Found a French forum dedicated to the LiteOn products.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=fr_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xsorbit3.com%2Fusers%2Fobiwan207%2Findex.cgi

For those like me that don't speaker French the link is to the Babelfish translation page.




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[ThomasW]

Wanted to pop this thread back up since the LVD-2001 is again being sold. It's rebadged as a Norcent DP-501M. It's available from the usual suspects for ~$170 or so. Same region-free, defeatable Macro-Vision, 1080i, PAL compatible,etc, etc




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[Bam!]

Chris!

nice flip! :LOL:

Hey maybe if you guys came on down to TTP you`d understand the flip! :LOL:

See ya!




Bam!

[ThomasW]

LiteOn has released the final firmware for both the 2001 and 2002

http://www.liteonit.com/DC/english/download/2001.htm

http://www.liteonit.com/DC/english/download/2002.htm

theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio