Receivers as pre/pro

[kgveteran]

I have always thought with the onset of less expensive receivers that are loaded with goodies like Audyssey ect. why get an expensive pre/pro ?

I now use a Denon 3808ci, which i would like to upgrade soon.....

KG

[Hdale85]

I think receivers these days make great pre-pro's honestly. There are some that even have the ability to turn off the internal amps. I will likely be upgrading to the Denon AVR-4520CI Feb next year, getting a nice deal through a part time online job I've taken on But eventually I'll likely add amps to it possibly. Before I wanted to get the 4311 (which if you are ok with a previous gen is a perfect receiver to use as a pre/pro), it just has a ton of features for the money. Can do 11 channel surround, turn off the internal amps, Auydessey XT32 which is very nice and so on. Think you can pick them up for around a grand now too.

So far I haven't seen a pre/pro that's being released for a reasonable price that includes these kinds of feature sets which has kept me in the receiver market.

[John Holmes]

I pretty much concur with my fellow moderator above, and I just purchased pre/pro a few moths ago.

Yes-it does lack many of the features an AVR at the same price would have. But, the receiver wouldn't have matched my amp's aesthetics. :T Not to mention, I would hope that since the amp and processor are from the same mfg., there will be "some' sound quality benefit.

At the end of the day, IMHO, the idea of the pre-amp and amplifier combo is a tough sell. Todays AVR's are really, really good; even compared to just a few years ago.

[alebonau]

receivers do make great pre pros, especially the 3808 you have already. I ran a 4308 as a pre pro for quite a while myself. yes can upgrade to a processor, but will cost you quite a bit more and for many I doubt worth the added expense.

[audioqueso]

I can't agree that a receiver is the same as a dedicated pre-amp.
I had a Marantz SR7004 receiver that I ran independently at first with my 805's.
Then I purchased an Emotiva XPA-5 amp. It made a big improvement on the sound quality. At that time, I thought the SR7004 was doing a great job as a pre-amp. I do understand that this receiver is from 2008, and things may have changed and improved in the last 4 years.
However, later I had the chance to use a McIntosh as a pre-amp, and it was a big difference. From what I recall, the sound stage was the biggest difference. Then clarity. Using the Marantz receiver as a pre-amp with the XPA-5 sounded two dimensional compared to the McIntosh+XPA-5 combo. I've had some people had the same findings.
Later I sold the Marantz receiver, and purchased a Marantz AV7005 dedicated pre-amp. Once again, one of the first difference I notice was how much more of a three dimensional sound stage the AV7005 had compared to the receiver. Not as big of a difference as I heard with the McIntosh, but still a big difference compared to using the receiver as a pre-amp.

Before I had the chance to try a dedicated pre-amp, I thought the receiver did great acting as a pre-amp. One day I had the opportunity of speaking with one of the engineers at Marantz Japan (if any of you recall, they first came to my house when I lived in Japan). He told me a bit about why a AV7005 works better than a SR7004, but explained more why a dedicated pre-amp does what it does better than a receiver. Talking about keeping the circuit path as clean as possible, how having no amps in the same chassis reduces a significant amount of noise, etc, etc. Basically, having a path as noise-free as possible. (Which also makes sense why analog pre-amps sound night and day better than amps with digital processing.)

Again, I also think it depends on what kind of speakers you have.
Why?
Because it depends how much you're trying to squeeze out of them.
For example, I have a pair of 600 S3 and a pair of 805's. Whenever I had made a tweak for my 805's, just for fun I set up the room to compare the 600 to the 805.
In order of stages that I've gone through, I've compared them:
- using a receiver I found they sound almost the same
- using a pre/pro, they both improved but showed a big difference in their strength
- adding custom AC cables showed little improvement, but more clarity with the bass
- adding Kimber XT8 cable, both had a good improvement, but the 805 seemed to improve more with this change
- adding Kimber XLR cables between the pre and pro had a dramatic improvement with the 805's, but hardly any with the 600

So it appears that with the upgrade or tweaks that I've done, I've basically squeezed out all that I can out of the 600 speakers. However, the 805's appear as though they still have more to give because they still show an increase in sound quality with every little change that I've made.
So back to the subject, I think a dedicated pre-amp will do a better job than a receiver as a pre-amp, but it also depends on how the speaker (meaning if it's worth it or not).

[Hdale85]

Well I do believe things have advanced a lot in the last 4 years and receivers are constantly closing the gap, I do believe a pre/pro is still going to sound better likely on music and what not, but I think the main reason for a receiver or pre/pro is for movies and in movies I don't think I've ever seen/heard much benefit between the 2. Also as I said there are receivers coming out now that allow you to turn off the extra PSU's and amps and run it as a pre/pro so you don't have all those extra circuits adding noise.

[impala454]

I've got an old Denon 2307CI, and a set of four Statements Monitors and a Center. I ran them just fine with the Denon and they sounded great, but can definitely say I heard a very significant improvement when I bought an Emotiva XPA-5 to drive them. I would love to try a prepro so I can use the balanced inputs on that XPA-5, but as mentioned in the thread, the cost differences are just huge and at this point I can't justify it. I did pull the Denon receiver out of the loop a couple times, plugging the outputs from my Oppo BDP83 directly to the XPA-5, and really couldn't detect any discernible difference in quality (and honestly shouldn't, as the Denon was simply acting as a pass through with pre-outs).

[Hdale85]

Well actually unless you have analog outputs from your Oppo going to the Denon then you were using the Denon DAC's and what not, going straight from the Oppo to the amp would use the DAC's in the Oppo. Now if you had say the BDP-83SE then you likely could of heard a difference on music. There is also a lot more circuitry to go through when you play it through the receiver. I think for music and what not there are still big benefits to go with a really solid preamp or even no preamp at all and a really solid DAC that has volume control.

[John Holmes]

I don't think anyone can really argue, a good stand alone amp will in most cases will give better performance, with few exceptions. But so many factors come into play with that as well.

Of course the load of the speakers matter. What level of playback one wants to achieve for a given space, etc., etc... However, the majority of setups I've seen, the speakers are either flush with or in very close proximity to the front wall. With quite a few having one of L/R in the corner, which obviously means a side wall is flush with said speaker also. I mention this because, this is the real world many have to live with in this hobby. A pre/pro or additional amps won't do much.

I'll stop now so I can continue enjoying my pre/pro and amps. :B

[impala454]

Yes Dougie, it's analog out from the Oppo, save for HDMI straight to the TV for video. My Denon does not decode any of the bluray codecs. Like I said it's mainly acting as a pass through and just for attenuation (which I'd hope wouldn't affect quality much, or at least didn't seem to).

I'd like to get a new prepro that has all the latest greatest features so I could just run HDMI everywhere, but can't justify it when the Oppo does a great job.

[Hdale85]

Oh ok, I didn't bother to look up the receiver lol. Well in that instance it'd likely be hard to hear any difference

Emotiva has the last stock of UMC-1's for 399 now And you get a 40% off coupon for the future pre/pro XMC-1, just an idea lol. It's a pain not being able to run straight HDMI.

[impala454]

I definitely have strongly considered that, but just really can't justify it. Wish I could.

[madmac]

Getting back to the headphone debate which is pertinent in this case because I have my Oppo dvd player going straight into my Rotel via it's RCA analog out's and the Rotel set to 'Bypass' in that dvd analog mode going through my headphone amp. I must say, I watched a movie last night and a concert (Adele..live at the Royal Albert hall) and was VERY impressed at the sonic performance!!. I guess what I'm getting to here is that keeping it simple will typically generate the best sonic result (ie.....the less processing the better!!) I can only imagine what the BDP-95 or the newest Oppo model would produce in this format!!!. Hummm.......I might take that plunge !! :-)

[alebonau]

I've got an old Denon 2307CI, and a set of four Statements Monitors and a Center. I ran them just fine with the Denon and they sounded great, but can definitely say I heard a very significant improvement when I bought an Emotiva XPA-5 to drive them. I would love to try a prepro so I can use the balanced inputs on that XPA-5, but as mentioned in the thread, the cost differences are just huge and at this point I can't justify it. I did pull the Denon receiver out of the loop a couple times, plugging the outputs from my Oppo BDP83 directly to the XPA-5, and really couldn't detect any discernible difference in quality (and honestly shouldn't, as the Denon was simply acting as a pass through with pre-outs).

processing and dacs have improved with subsequent generations of avrs including in the denons, plus you get what pay for ie going up in the range usually brings better dacs, processing power supplies, analog stages all the kind of things moving to a pre pro bring as well.

I wouldnt get to caught up in going balanced, doesnt bring huge gains if any in a domestic setup. It has a higher signal level which people compare balanced and unbalanced signals and go oh wow it sounds more dynamic when its just louder with the balanced connection something easily negated with the level trim

Keep in mind too the benefits of balanced start coming with true balanced designs end to end. these though are rare as hens teeth. Can probably count on your hands how many true balanced av processors around. the emo xpa5 isnt in anycase a fully balanced design I believe you need to move to xpa1 atleast to gain that. but again I wouldnt get too worried that it isnt

[Hdale85]

Yeah currently the XPA-1 is the only true balanced amp they have.

[impala454]

Right, I'm perfectly happy with the dacs in the oppo. And the desire for using balanced is admittedly more of a giddiness to use a different cable :P

[Chris D]

I do think that receivers today do a decent job as pre/pros, much more than they used to. Yes, they have LOTS of processing toys now, which is awesome. But I'll point out that there is much more to hi-fi sound production (or, perhaps more to the point, it's best when there is LESS processing and switching) than just the latest electronic processing.

That's why I've stuck with my high-end pre/pro for all sound switching as much as possible, but I've added a new HDMI receiver strictly as an HDMI audio decoder for modern high-end HDMI audio codecs on BD. (so it's used for even LESS than a full pre/pro) Works awesome for me as an ultimate solution without having to buy a whole new pre/pro every 6 months as some new gizmo comes out.

[Kal Rubinson]

I do think that receivers today do a decent job as pre/pros, much more than they used to. Yes, they have LOTS of processing toys now, which is awesome. But I'll point out that there is much more to hi-fi sound production (or, perhaps more to the point, it's best when there is LESS processing and switching) than just the latest electronic processing.

I understand your point but I wonder if this philosophy is not a hold-over from analog days where it certainly applied.

[Chris D]

Kal - I understand your point, and I do think that processing done purely in the digital domain, all contained within the SAME processor, in the same unit, does not by itself degrade or contaminate the signal. Now, of course, the quality of the processing itself can do "good" or "bad" things to the sound quality. But as you say, it definitely still applies in the analog domain, and you have to look at how many times your components switch from D to A (and vice versa), and have a connection to another part, whether internal or external. Each one of those degrades the signal, and each of those also has a greater chance of lower quality from a cheaper receiver. That would still be in addition to potential interference from the internal amplifier section of the receiver.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal - I understand your point, and I do think that processing done purely in the digital domain, all contained within the SAME processor, in the same unit, does not by itself degrade or contaminate the signal. Now, of course, the quality of the processing itself can do "good" or "bad" things to the sound quality. But as you say, it definitely still applies in the analog domain, and you have to look at how many times your components switch from D to A (and vice versa), and have a connection to another part, whether internal or external. Each one of those degrades the signal, and each of those also has a greater chance of lower quality from a cheaper receiver. That would still be in addition to potential interference from the internal amplifier section of the receiver.

That's only one reason why I use a prepro. :W

[kgveteran]

So if someone was to get a ***** B-stock receiver for $1,200...... We would talk apples and apples, what pre/pro could you get for that price ? If we were to start there, we could then split up into groups and take shots at the other guys gear Lol......

[Kal Rubinson]

I have nothing against AVRs and am currently playing with an Onkyo 5010 (as a prepro). In fact, buying an AVR will get you a better value than a comparably-priced prepro, if you can live without XLR outputs.

[Hdale85]

Well the Denon 4520 is MSRP 2499, the Marantz 8801 which is more or less the same thing with a couple tweaks and a copper chassis will be MSRP of like 3499. Seems like removing amps would make it cheaper, I can't imagine the other upgrades made up for that saving and then also added on a grand?

[Kal Rubinson]

I'll bet that the Denon AVR outsells the Marantz prepro by at least 10:1. The economies of scale apply.

[impala454]

Great point. It's a much smaller market. Though is it really a simple matter of "removing the amps"? Or is there more difference than that? I'm not 100% sold that there's no real difference in XLR vs coax, but still, not sure that'd be worth $1,000

[Hdale85]

There are other small changes yes, I believe the DAC's are different and it does have a copper chassis. But like I said you would think leaving out the amps would shave a ton of cost to help cover for those. I can't say that I'd agree that they'd sell 10 times more 4520's then 8801's though. Generally the high end receiver market is still pretty low sales compared to the mid-level receivers. Once you get much over 1k bucks the sales seem to go down a ton. Kind of like the projector market, they started selling like crazy when we started getting the 999 projectors and what not.

[kgveteran]

I will give the pre/pro crowd one, i use to own a EAD Ovation with burr/brown dacs....

I didnt know how good that little unit sounded til i picked up an Outlaw 990. I sold one for the other and it kinda hurt a little...

The Denon 3808 has a real nice sound to it.... but thats coming off of the 990. I have to say i still use Outlaw Mono's up front and Behringer 500a's for the sides.
I only watch movies with this rig, with an occational DVD concert. Alice in Chains unplugged, along with Nirvana unplugged are to die for and i'm an old guy who missed Grunge totally, i mean like i missed MySpace and FaceBook totally and have no time for that garbage......

Jus saying the Denon is still swinging pretty well.....