I think I found my new Pre/Pro Denon AVR-4311CI

[Hdale85]

Ok so been on the look out for what I'm going to add to my setup as a pre/pro in the next 6 months or so. Well a few days ago Denon put the AVR-4311CI up on their site and after researching I think it's the one.

Price is ~2k. It's got 9 channels of amps for 9.2. But it has 11.2 channel pre/outs. At first I thought this was going to be like the new Marantz where it has them but you can only use up to 9 channels. (the marantz will only let you use up to 7). But upon further investigation it'll let you do all 11 channels if you add an external 2 channel amp.

Further more it has a preamp only mode where it will turn off the internal amps if you are using external amps to lower the noise and what not from the internal amps. So it can act as a true pre/pro. I think this is the one for me, has all the other standard features. Uses the ABT VRS video processor, uses the new Audyssey 32 bit DSP. So on and so forth.

Product Page

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5414.asp

Owners Manual

http://usa.denon.com/AVR-4311CI-OM-E_108.pdf

Front


Back

[Ovation]

Nice. I'm considering its "little brother" as a replacement for my non-HDMI receiver (the 3311), with amplification added down the line.

[Hdale85]

I suspect by time I'm ready to buy I should be able to find the 4311 for ~1500 bucks. I'm going to be slowly building speakers over time and will start with the front LCR's. I think I'm going to do Emotiva LPA-1's all around. So I'll just buy the amps as I need them to spread the cost out But I think the 4311 will be an awesome piece.

[audioqueso]

Dougie, for that price.. and if you already plan on using it as a pre-amp, why not go for the Marantz AV7005?

[BTW574]

I bought the 3311 and love it. It replace a 4800 that failed after alot of usage. I was told there is suppse to be a 4811 coming out sometime so if it does the 3311 will get moved to a different room for this unit

[Hdale85]

The AV7005 does have the 11 channel pre outs, but it only allows you to use 7 speakers at one time. So you can't have 11.2 surround enabled, you can only have up to 7 total. There are a few other things as well that the Denon has, and I may end up using the Denon's internal amp (or a portion of it) for a little while until I get all the other amps.

The Marantz does look pretty though, but they dropped the ball by not allowing the use of all 11 channels and as far as I can tell it could easily handle it. In fact I think all the hardware is there to do it, they just didn't.

[Hdale85]

I bought the 3311 and love it. It replace a 4800 that failed after alot of usage. I was told there is suppse to be a 4811 coming out sometime so if it does the 3311 will get moved to a different room for this unit

I'm guessing one of the main differences between the 4811 and 4311 will be balanced outputs. Other then that I can't see much else that it would have other then maybe more advanced DAC's and possibly a better amp.

[Chris D]

Based on what I've seen and experienced from Denon in the last several years, I think a unit like this would be a very good choice.

[Alloroc]

Dougie, for that price.. and if you already plan on using it as a pre-amp, why not go for the Marantz AV7005?

I'm waiting for that one with anticipation!

[jagman]

I'm going to get this one, too. Denon says the internal amps are stable to 4 ohms. In addition to MultEQ 32, it also has SubEQ built in, which is supposed to be the same as Audyssey's stand alone subwoofer eq (including equalization for two independent subwoofers).

[jagman]

I'm thinking about getting an xpa-3 for the lcr and using the internal amps for rears, surrounds and heights. That should work since the 4311 is stable to 4 ohms and my effects speakers are all 4 ohm monitors.

[Kevin P]

Very nice Dougie. I've always liked Denon gear, and that one looks like a winner. I really like that they let you turn off the internal amps when using it as a pre-pro. Are the internal amps assignable as to what channels you can use them on?

I've tossed around the idea of upgrading my Sherwood Newcastle P965 to something with HDMI etc. but it seems like all the latest and greatest stuff are in receivers and not pre-pros.

What's the Ethernet port used for? Streaming media from the internet?

Now I need to read up on what "11.2" is all about. How many channels does one really need?

[Hdale85]

11.2 adds front height and width channels, they are "presence" channels. I've heard there is more benefit in the height channels though.

As for the amps, somewhat, there are different modes for the internal amps. You can assign the back surround channels to height or width or back. There are also modes where I believe you can turn off the front LCR channels and use only the surround channels and such.

I agree Kevin most of the new features I look for seem to be in receivers, that's why I was happy to see this one would run in both receiver and pre/pro mode.

The ethernet port is used for streaming, automation, internet (firmware updates and what not) probably some other stuff. I know you can access the receiver via a page like you can a router to set it up as well.

[Kevin P]

What about the ".2"? Are they separate sub channels or just two parallel sub outputs, which would really just be .1?

IIRC, I installed a Denon receiver for someone a year or two ago that had the ethernet port. IIRC, I used it to update the firmware, and I remember while I had it, streaming some internet radio stations on it.

Funny how so many components have ethernet ports on them now. I'm going to need to install a network switch in my theater cabinet soon.

I'm thinking BD player this Christmas. Maybe a pre-pro/receiver upgrade for Christmas 2011. :W

[Hdale85]

Well Christmas 2011 is a ways away, chances are we'll see a lot of new crap out by then...probably HDMI spec 2.0 or some crap lol.

I believe the sub outputs are mono, it's just it's got 2 of them so you aren't splitting voltage so much to multiple amps.

[Blindamood]

Funny how so many components have ethernet ports on them now. I'm going to need to install a network switch in my theater cabinet soon.

Absolutely! I've got a switch on the back of my cabinet...router is in the next room, and the 4-port switch feeds my receiver (Denon AVR-3808CI), Logitech Transporter, Oppo blu-ray player, and Roku Netflix box. Lots of functionality that can either use the Internet connection, or just communicate with other devices in the house via the Ethernet network (e.g., NAS music server).

[Chris D]

Funny how so many components have ethernet ports on them now. I'm going to need to install a network switch in my theater cabinet soon.

That's the truth, all thanks to convergence. Just about everything is networked nowadays, for various reasons. Heck, just about everything has Netflix streaming built into it, if nothing else. Thankfully, for me, all my A/V gear for the entire house is in my central equipment room, which also has all the security, telephone, networking, etc for the whole house. So I just use a couple big switches, and tie everything to everything else to give it all internet, home networking, and automation galore. The same can be done with a wireless network too.

Dougie got it right about the subs. Just two outputs of the same .1

[Kevin P]

Dougie got it right about the subs. Just two outputs of the same .1

So why is it called 11.2 then? That would imply 2 separate LFE channels to me. Otherwise, I could put Y-cables on each output of a 7.1 pre-pro, run them to separate amps and speakers, and have a 14.2 system. :B

Maybe by Christmas 2011 they'll have a new HDMI standard that works over component video cables, so I don't have to run another cable to my plasma. :B

[Hdale85]

Maybe by Christmas 2011 they'll have a new HDMI standard that works over component video cables, so I don't have to run another cable to my plasma. :B

:lol: :lol: :rofl: :rofl:

[Kevin P]

Has anyone been able to open the owner's manual PDF linked in the original post? I downloaded it twice but when I open it in Acrobat (6.0 Standard is what I have at work) I just get a white page and an hourglass, the document never opens.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I've downloaded it a few times. Just did it again to check....works fine for me.

[Kevin P]

What version of Acrobat, Reader or whatever viewer you're using?

I went on the site and viewed the info on the receiver. The 2 Sub outputs can have separate EQ settings, so they aren't mono per se, though they carry the mono LFE signal.

[Hdale85]

I use FoxIt PDF viewer. Version 4.0.0.0619.

[Chris D]

And Kev, I can get you a Balun that carries HDMI over component video.

[Kevin P]

"HDMI over component video" sounds funny, but when you think about it, it would be a perfect solution for those of us who already have the coax in the wall. Obviously, HDMI could be carried over just 1 of the 3 component video lines, or a single composite or cable-TV coax line. It would also be a good solution for longer runs than standard HDMI cables can handle.

Is there really a coax balun that is HDMI compatible Chris?

I have 4 RG6 coax lines going from the theater cabinet to the plasma (3 for component, and 1 extra for cable TV or other purpose, not used), and 5 to my big-a$$ CRT PJ (RGBHV). Running HDMI cables to these locations would be difficult to say the least, especially to the PJ. Being able to repurpose the coax to carry HDMI would make things so much easier when I make the switch. Go figure we would have our fire and rebuild the house right before HDMI became standard fare.

It makes you wonder why the developers of the HDMI standard had to come up with a special cable/connector instead of just using something like coax that everyone and their dog has a spool of in the garage, and/or 150 interconnects sitting in a box somewhere.

[Hdale85]

I think when I do my perm theater install I'll put a network cable up to the projector. There are lots of interfaces that go over Cat6 or Cat5 network wire.

[Chris D]

Yes, HDMI would be easier if it was designed to go over widely available wire like RG-6 coax or Cat 5/6/7. Thankfully, though, several companies have realized this and made adapters and extenders that use that media. When I look into that sort of thing, the first place I usually go is to Gefen. I myself (when I get home) hope to pick up a new HDMI switcher and extenders from them, mostly utilizing single Cat 5e wires for the HDMI transmission, so that I can use my existing wired home ethernet network to transmit HD A/V through the house.

Kev, I'm almost positive I've seen a balun specific to component video. But here's one that you can get today, for your RGB solution.

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5304

[Chris D]

Oh, and these guys might be able to help, too, the "Multimedia over Coax Alliance",

http://www.mocalliance.org/

[Hdale85]

600 bucks.....I don't know I'd probably rather just run a new cable for that

[impala454]

I'm guessing one of the main differences between the 4811 and 4311 will be balanced outputs. Other then that I can't see much else that it would have other then maybe more advanced DAC's and possibly a better amp.

I'm kind of doubting this, although it would be cool. I'd like to get one with balanced outputs at some point, but the only one I see from Denon that has them is that insane AVP A1HDCI that's $7500 MSRP (maybe when my lotto ticket wins :P)

I haven't looked in a while and am kinda bummed that the 2311CI has been so stripped down... I have the 2307CI (obviously a few years old) and it has more features than the 2311, save for the extra HDMI ports. I was about to type in and ask here "what does the 3311 have over the 2311?" and was shocked to see that the 2311 doesn't even have preamp outputs! My 4 years older model has them!

Is there some great advantage of the 4311 that makes it worth $900 more than the 3311? I guess I don't really care about all those extra channels.

[Hdale85]

Well.....if you don't care that it can run in true preamp mode.... Then I'm not sure. The main difference is the ability to do 11.2 and true preamp mode. I imagine they all use the VRS video processor...

Looks like the 4311 has a bit different audio processor, it lists 2. Also the 4311 decodes HDCD while the 3311 does not. The 4311 lists 140wpc and the 3311 lists 125. The 4311 has AL24+ processing on all channels, the 3311 only has it on the front L/R. The 4311 has Denon Link. The 4311 has an extra set of component inputs. 4311 has Zone 3 with discrete remote. 4311 has an extra HDMI input, also supports DSD (SACD) over HDMI. And lastly, the 4311 weights about 12 lbs more.

[impala454]

what exactly is "true preamp mode"?

[Hdale85]

It actually turns the amps completely off so there is no distortion or noise being introduced from them at all. So it's technical a real pre/pro in that mode.

[Ovation]

Well.....if you don't care that it can run in true preamp mode.... Then I'm not sure. The main difference is the ability to do 11.2 and true preamp mode. I imagine they all use the VRS video processor...

Looks like the 4311 has a bit different audio processor, it lists 2. Also the 4311 decodes HDCD while the 3311 does not. The 4311 lists 140wpc and the 3311 lists 125. The 4311 has AL24+ processing on all channels, the 3311 only has it on the front L/R. The 4311 has Denon Link. The 4311 has an extra set of component inputs. 4311 has Zone 3 with discrete remote. 4311 has an extra HDMI input, also supports DSD (SACD) over HDMI. And lastly, the 4311 weights about 12 lbs more.

The 4311 also has an MCH analogue input (the 3311 does not--which is disappointing as my DVD-A player would need one).

[Chris D]

600 bucks.....I don't know I'd probably rather just run a new cable for that

Well, your call. Especially on longer runs, using an extender over other wires pays off. You can either pay $500-600 for an extender that runs up to 300 feet and uses your existing cabling of whatever type, or you can pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for an extra long HDMI cable, and figure out how to snake it around the rooms and through walls.

A tip--you can almost always find Gefen products for less than retail. If nothing else, go to Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Gefen-EXT-HDMI-5BNC-HDmi-Over-Extender/dp/B0013M0496/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285097683&sr=8-1

[Hdale85]

Well I can't imagine in an HT setup that you'd need more then 50ft or so. Heck can get a good quality 100ft HDMI cable for like 70 bucks. I could see how with your setup you may need something like that as you have a room with all your equipment in it, it may be quite a distance for you to cover.

[Hammie]

I considered this as an "upgrade" from my Denon 3808CI, but I think that I am going for the Onkyo Pro 5508 when it is released.

[Hdale85]

Yeah seems Denon may of dropped the ball SQ wise with this unit unfortunately. Seems it has 2 AKM 8 channel DAC's and they are non discrete. Several people have already returned theirs and went for an Onkyo or the likes. Disappointing to say the least!

[audioqueso]

So are you not going to purchase the Denon then?

[Hdale85]

Probably not with what I've read lately. I don't know.... SQ is of some importance to me while I have one system. If it were 2 then it wouldn't matter so much. But for 2,000 dollars I'd expect it to use a bit more advanced DAC section at the very least. Plenty of things in it's range and cheaper that can out perform it in the SQ area. But features without some decent SQ is worthless to me.

[impala454]

That Onkyo pre-pro looks great!

[Hdale85]

Well looks better then the 4311 at least

[Ovation]

I have need for an optical digital output and the Onkyo lacks such an output. Why it could find room for six or seven composite video outputs instead is a mystery to me.

[Hdale85]

I think 6 or 7 composite video connections is just completely a waste.... Who uses that many composite devices anymore?

[Hdale85]

Well seems the SQ might not be that "terrible". I guess it uses 2 AKM DAC's and the LCR channels are dual differential. The rear and presence channels are just single ended.