Beyond HD

[cxc21]

1080p is really low resolution if you look at PC monitor resolutions where 2560x1920 or more are common. Has anyone seen one of the quad-HDTVs like from Westinghouse (3840x2160)?

RED just announced its Red-Ray player, a media playback device for DVDs and DL DVDs holding content 4K (4096 x 2048), 2K (2048 x 1024) and regular 16:9 4K (3996 × 2160) formats, as well as 1080p, 720p and regular DVD (480p).

I guess it's time to get ready for the next upgrade

[H.T.C]

Thats just another format for the general consumer to be confused about and just when everything started to calm down a little now that hd-dvd/blu-ray debate is over and with the fact 1080 can be doubled with prog scanning.

While its true that 1080 resolution is not the same as film print nether is its widescreen the exact same as cinemascope.

I dont think the hobbiest or consumer has enough money to constantly keep up in this industry.

[Ovation]

If you consider that actual high def TV technology goes back several decades and is only now approaching 50% market penetration in the US, I think worrying about "beyond HD" is a bit of stretch at this point. Particularly at the screen sizes most people have/want.

[George Bellefontaine]

If you consider that actual high def TV technology goes back several decades and is only now approaching 50% market penetration in the US, I think worrying about "beyond HD" is a bit of stretch at this point. Particularly at the screen sizes most people have/want.

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Hdale85]

Don't forget that PC monitors have always had higher resolutions then TV's and for good reason. I don't see the market getting anything higher then 1080p for a long while. Sure its possible but I just don't see it happening.

[cxc21]

Yup, I saw all the HD stuff monitors, cameras projectors ready for consumers in the '80s on a CEBIT in Germany, but than nothing happened for 20 years until the HDCP stuff was brought forward which is still not entirely figured out and still keeps consumers from getting into good visual representation of media. From NTSC to DVD was a great step forward, HD 720p/1080p is great but, as it was pointed out already is old technology. Blueray is MPEG-2 which also is old compression technology, H264 would be more economical. And probably will be the immediate next step requiring again new equipment. Or their will be separate world of media delivery developin. the HDMI/HDCP world and the H264 based also DRM protected route. Certainly the defining factors here are the business models developed to get the most out of the customers and the slow adaptation speaks for itself. I always find it fun to think about what is next. E.g. starting 2009 all Pixar movies will be done in 3D. That will also require new projectors.

[Hdale85]

Blu-Ray has very few disc's that use Mpeg-2, Most of them are AVC or H.264 but they also use VC1 as well. Although a lot of the first Blu-Ray discs were Mpeg-2.

[cxc21]

Blu-Ray has very few disc's that use Mpeg-2, Most of them are AVC or H.264 but they also use VC1 as well. Although a lot of the first Blu-Ray discs were Mpeg-2.

Thanks for the clarification. That means that all bd player must be able to decode all these different formats?

[Hdale85]

Yes they all do as far as I know. Maybe some of the very early models don't but I believe they were upgraded via firmware to support the codecs when they started coming into play. All new players definitely do. Recently Microsoft even made a statement that it would be possible for them to support a blu-ray add on and not long after that they released a update for the 360 to support H.264. Oddly enough now they are denying that they are working on a Blu-Ray drive for the 360 but it wouldn't be the first time they misinformed the public.

[Kevin D]

FYI, a lot of the new HDMI adapters and switches we've seen are approved for use at 1440p. Aparantly some companies are looking at doing some type of quad 720p displays (2560x1440!)

Kevin D.

[Chris D]

It's unavoidable that we'll get higher HD in the future, and better media/downloads. Is the market ready for any of it yet? I don't think so.

[Ovation]

Yeah, it'll happen in the future. Soon enough to worry about upgrading current HD gear? I don't think so. There are limits to people's willingness to keep upgrading for the sake of upgrading (hobbyists do it all the time, but a mainstream industry cannot live on hobbyists alone).

Take computers--I used to upgrade stuff all the time (sound cards, graphics cards, RAM, etc.). I also used to upgrade to newer processors. I wasn't all that knowledgeable about it (didn't care as much as I do for A/V gear, for example) but it seemed like "a must" or my computer would become obsolete.

Well, I think I've reached a plateau with computers. I have a 4 year old Mac PowerBook G4 and a three year old Dell laptop (it serves as my desktop as I have it hooked to a docking port with standard monitor, keyboard and mouse). I got the Dell six months ago via my wife's office who sell off their laptops to employees at a very low price once their warranty/service contract expires. It replaced (as my desktop) a computer dating back to Sept. 2000. Note I did not replace it with a NEW computer--for the applications I need, the three year old laptop is more than sufficient. The only thing I "upgrade" now is storage capacity (though I have quite a bit already--it's simply that my wife's company also gives out an annual stipend for computer "upgrades") and RAM.

I understand that new machines allow for all sorts of wonderful applications that I cannot use, but I don't need or want them. The same attitude will mark HD gear, I strongly suspect. Once 75% or more of households have HD displays (mostly at 1080p, I suspect, as lower res displays will likely disappear from the market in a little while) and a number of those have some sort of HD content source (blu-ray, those movie download services, HD PVRs)--people will be content for a while.

[cxc21]

Absolutely right, it's a matter of priority. In the Mac/PC world the momentum is often artificially created to force updates. Why do you need a 3.2 Ghz 4 or 8 core computer to do word processing or web browsing? I can us my old Mac IIci from 1989 for this. Games and Media processing (Video/Audio) is another matter. And here the new machines shine. But then there are HDCP and other DRM schemes. Integration of HDCP seems to be in good part responsible for the Vista debacle. I see alot of friends who are interested in good audio and video and have the money, but are ticked off by having to buy all components of a system new just because of a DRM system which may change again since it is cracked all the time. It is just better to convince people on technical advances and improvements. Many had bought LCD or plasma TV's which were advertised/suggested as HDMI but now turned out not to be HDCP ready. Others had bought into HD-DVD. Now people have PC monitors 4x the 1080p resolution and rightly asked the question why is it so expensive to do a little video upscaling in a Home theater setup when a $ 140 grafik card in a PC can do it. It is obviously demanding to produce the high resolution monitors and projectors, but seriously thousands of $$ for a processor or 1080P projector or hundreds of $ for bulbs? Yes you need serious commitment to buy into this. Blueray is pushed as the best, but the development doesn't stop here. HDMI itself is already is an aging standard and will be replaced by Display port which allows for the higher resolutions. The new Dell monitors already have this integrated.

[littlesaint]

For now, I think 4k resolution and beyond is primarily for theaters. You'll see digital projection systems utilize these higher resolutions to keep an advantage over HT (not enough IMO), but 4k HT projectors are out there and I wouldn't be surprised if we see panel pixel densities get there soon. We already have technologies in displays and source devices that aren't used yet marketed as "features". Why not market "4k capable" as well. Unless you need a very large screen, I don't see the advantage, though I'm sure some will say they do.

One area where 4k is used to an advantage is in the transfer of film to HD. The Blade Runner transfer was done on a 4k system.

[David Meek]

One thing to consider (at least in the US) is that while the technology has been around for a number of years, the adoption of HD for televisions had to go through the federal government and its ATSC committee. That in and of itself kept HD TV in the 'States on hold while the standards were worked out, formalized, accepted and then passed on the TV manufacturers, broadcast TV, cable and satellite industries. To go past that for uber-HDTV will require something similar to come to pass. Will it happen? Yes, some day - it's inevitable - but it won't be soon IMHO. At least 8-10 years I'm thinking.

[cxc21]

One thing to consider (at least in the US) is that while the technology has been around for a number of years, the adoption of HD for televisions had to go through the federal government and its ATSC committee. That in and of itself kept HD TV in the 'States on hold while the standards were worked out, formalized, accepted and then passed on the TV manufacturers, broadcast TV, cable and satellite industries. To go past that for uber-HDTV will require something similar to come to pass. Will it happen? Yes, some day - it's inevitable - but it won't be soon IMHO. At least 8-10 years I'm thinking.

The strategy is to feed us incremental improvements in technology to secure revenue streams for the next 10 years to stretch the investments to the max. The standards are worked out or better hold up by the industry including content producers to help keep everyone in line for that purpose alone. It works well in the states were people had to look at NTSC lousy resolution for way too long. Broadcast standards are one thing, home video application another. I am sure it wasn't easy to convince the broadcasters to finally switch to digital since it will cut into the revenue and forcing investment for the infrastructure.

[cxc21]

FYI, a lot of the new HDMI adapters and switches we've seen are approved for use at 1440p. Aparantly some companies are looking at doing some type of quad 720p displays (2560x1440!)

Kevin D.

Hi Kevin, could give some examples? I am looking for a switch which can do this. Thanks

[Jack Gilvey]

It's unavoidable that we'll get higher HD in the future, and better media/downloads. Is the market ready for any of it yet? I don't think so.

Is the human eye ready for it? I mean, there's a certain distance one must be from a given screen to discern the detail difference between 720p and 1080p. I'd imagine that one would have to be even closer when going higher.
Of course, with computers screens, you're typically very close, so higher resolutions can be quite obvious. Movie theaters are also a special case, they need to account for those in the front third who's field-of-view is far wider than just about any HT's.

[Coconutout]

I did get to see 'ultra' HD or whatever the format was that was displayed at Tokyo Science Expo two summers ago. i forget what resolution that was but it was definitely way over 1080p and definitely 'trippy' realistic. it was so realistic it made you truly feel like you were in the picture. all the audiences were gasping going 'sugoi' (japanese for 'cool'). they showed a demo reel and after that, a footage from the camera that was filming the audience while we were waiting in the line. it almost felt like we were looking into a giant mirror to backward in time. i think the only thing human eyes wouldn't be ready for is something better than reality itself.

[David Meek]

I am sure it wasn't easy to convince the broadcasters to finally switch to digital since it will cut into the revenue and forcing investment for the infrastructure.

There are some that are still dragging their feet so to speak. The capital required to switch every major networks' stations to HD is staggering - I forget how many billions of dollars estimated. Just getting the majors' stations to switch exclusively to a digital signal (not necessarily HD) won't happen until February of next year (2009) when originally the cutoff deadline in the ATSC guideline was January 1, 2006.

[audioqueso]

This whole "human eye not being ready" thing is kinda irrelevant.
Two types of video. Film and CGI.

Film a picture, film something that we have already seen in our life (like a dog), and then try to translate it as best as possible to the real imagine on media (DVD, HDTV, etc). We watch it on the best possible screen, etc, etc... we see a dog, we recognize it as a dog, and this is the best possible translation that film and technology could have brought us from the original source; a dog. A dog that we already know what it looks like in real life.

Now take CGI. Same thing, but the concept in general is an immitation of something we already know. Either way, we already know what it should be like.

If we reach the point where a film of a dog is so perfectly translated so that one would look at the screen and truely wonder if that is really a dog in front of them or just a screen, then we've reached the point of real shock and awe... to the point where we could say the eye may not be ready. Mainly because of CGI. At that point, if CGI kept up, then someone could animate... a dragon... something no one has ever really seen, and if they could create it to the point that it's like the dog... where anyone can look at it and wonder if that's really there, or is it just a screen... then put a dragon and people can freak out and wonder if they are really seeing a dragon, or is it just a screen.

That would be cool to have that technology just show up instantly... like next year... and freak everyone out! ha ha

[H.T.C]

With that type of cgi there would be no need for movie stars just a voice (use anyone too record dont need actresses or acters) because human like qualities would be rendered as if it were real.

Cgi holography in high resolution would be the ultimate reality for tv.

[Hdale85]

Actors suck anyways lol.

[Alloroc]

Actors suck anyways lol.

Yeah.... who needs 'em anyway??!

That said, this is an interesting thread and while I'm just happy to be in 1080p land now, I'm all ears and eyes for the new stuff....