1080p - time to buy?

[DrJRapp]

Aussie Geoff here - I've copied this thread (well from this post on anyway) from this Club Rotel thread where it was getting way off topic (interesting through!)

Probably the same thing other companies were/are thinking when they learned that 1080p has confused the general market place and failed to demonstrate any significant or tangible advantages or better yet that very few displays from yesterday, today and tomorrow can handle or properly process a 1080p input not to mention the sheer lack of broadcast content.

James
I think you've been reading far too many magazine articles. I suggest you go visit a retailer. 1080P is happening NOW! I was at Best Buy yesterday, and I'll tell you that 1080p LCDs, and DLP rear projectors are the current hot sellers, at least here on the eastern end of the country. I bought my Samsung 61" RPDLP in December.

Agreed, lack of program content is an issue, but even 1080i deinterlaced to 1080P over a 1080P monitor or pj is a significant improvement over 1080i. True 1080P content from Bluray is glorious.

Yup.... Rotel messed up with this one. I project it will have a very short lifespan, perhaps even shorter than the 1 year of the 1057.

[DrJRapp]

Let me first say its nice to see you post again in this forum. I do want to ask why you suport Anthem and Sherwood over Rotel. Is it mainly due to the video side as you make reference too? Personally I would never go the route of Anthem or sherwood for video...or rotel for that matter.

Good question. First major reason: build quality. I've had far too many Rotel hardware failures. Secondly , mostly in favor of Anthem, superior sound quality. (In my own opinion the Sherwood sounds equivalent to Rotel, and sometimes better...for less $$). Third is the Video. Both Anthem and Sherwood have had HDMI switching and audio capabilities in their line (receivers and pre-pros) for nearly a year. Now that there are more than a few HDMI audio/video sources around, this is a significant factor. ( I have 4 myself) External switching devices, even several of those in expensive separate video processors, don't work well and require extensive duplication of wiring to integate the audio back into the pre-pro or avr. Anthem has had 1080P upscaling and multi-channel pcm audio decoding in both it's Statement series and the lower end AVM series for a year next month. As of the time of announcement the RSX 1058 could not decode multi-channel pcm audio. This may probably follow down the road with a "firmware" update so that Rotel can once again boast about their upgradeability, which historically has turned into nothing more than adding features that technologically could have been there from the start, and fixing firmware glitches.

This brings us to my final, and most decisive, Rotel objection; Rotel's upgrade policy, or better stated, policy of obsolecence. Rotel boasts upgradeability but fails to deliver. I like the fact that Anthem AVM20 owers could have the processor replaced to make the unit an AVM 30 and now it can be hardware upgraded again to a state of the art AVM50. Less than 6 months after I purchased my first Rotel pre-pro (the RSP 1066) it was left behind with the introduction of the 1068. Wait and see...the 1098 and 1068 will both be left behind once Rotel introduces their HDMI replacements. Rotel's excuse (that they already exercised with the 1066) will be that the internal processor couldn't handle the load and needed to be replaced. This MAY be acceptable to some at $1K, but not at $2K. I feel more secure spending $6700 on my Anthem Statement prepro, than I did spending "only" $3000 on a Rotel RSP 1098 knowing that for a modest fee Anthem will update my Statement D2 to HDMI 1.3 from 1.2 (even if it means a new processor chip) when the time comes and I won't have to purchase a whole new pre-pro.

The Sherwoods benefit by being cheap enough to just replace: Sherwood's 872 receiver with somewhat equivalent specs to the Rotel 1058, but with "better" 1080P upscaling will only list at $1K... their upper level 972 version with more HDMI switching and control options will list at $1500. In reality the Sherwood Newcastle line's pricing policy is realy more CE than Rotel's entry level Audio/Videophile, however, it's build quality and performance, along with the "elan" of an old time high end audiophile moniker puts it on par with Rotel.

[shadow 8]

Keep in mind the 1058 is not their entry level receiver, the 1057 is at $1300.

If you don't need the additional features, don't get the 1058.

Kevin D.

Problem is the 1058 cannot decode PCM audio streams from blu ray and HD-DVD, which is both incredible and unaccepatable for a new product in 2007. Its just a 1057 with a video scaler as far as I can see. Entry level receivers from the major companies can do this.

[RebelMan]

James
I think you've been reading far too many magazine articles. I suggest you go visit a retailer. 1080P is happening NOW! I was at Best Buy yesterday, and I'll tell you that 1080p LCDs, and DLP rear projectors are the current hot sellers, at least here on the eastern end of the country. I bought my Samsung 61" RPDLP in December.

Agreed, lack of program content is an issue, but even 1080i deinterlaced to 1080P over a 1080P monitor or pj is a significant improvement over 1080i. True 1080P content from Bluray is glorious.

Yup.... Rotel messed up with this one. I project it will have a very short lifespan, perhaps even shorter than the 1 year of the 1057.

Jerry you thought wrong. It’s not what I’ve been reading but what I have been hearing from companies like Hitachi, remember them? I suggest that you speak to the manufacturer directly. I don’t rely on second hand information from retail outlets like BB or CC that mostly depend on part time help and students looking for party funds. Electronic devices like the iPod and the PS3 are “happening” not 1080p. 1080p isn’t new it just hasn’t caught on in any major way. Any displays the retailers are touting as “1080p” is a marketing blitz to make happen what hasn’t happened and won’t happen for years to come.

The myriad of 1080p faces only adds to the confusion. Which 1080p will it be sir? 1080p/30 or 60 or 24 or 48 or 72? Considering that a staggering number of displays cannot take a 1080p input or they cannot display a FULL 1920x1080p output and you’ll agree 1080p hasn’t made any inroads. There isn’t a single display on the planet that I know of that has an issue with 1080i. 1080i is happening. Toshiba knows it too! That’s why they released their A1, A2 and XA1 in this format. Eventually the A20 and XA2 will make their appearance on showroom floors, but until the masses join the fray 1080p is an unrealized dream at this point.

I am hopeful that the XA2 will support 1080p/24 but Toshiba couldn’t promise me that it will only that it could. Time will tell but until then my trusty 1080i will do nicely.

Some BD content is very nice but the majority of the transfers have much to be desired. I have seen plenty of scaled DVD content from the same transfers that would embarrass a few BD players.

BTW, the 1057 is still around and will be for quite some time.

[DrJRapp]

James

I don't rely on either part time salespeople or marketing "experts" from any manufacturor for my opinions, I rely on my own eyes and ears and what I see where the rubber meets the road at the retail level is an awakening to 1080P HD that has been inspired in part by Bluray's advertising 1080P as the true HD. People are asking questions and people are buying the 1080P sets and forgoing the 720P (1080i) . I just (an hour ago) came from Sound Advice (Tweeter) where the manager, who is a long time friend (and about 30 times more knowledgable in this industry as you and I combined) admitted it was time that even he jump on the 1080P bandwagon. He's buying the same Samsung 6188 DLP set that I bought for my family room.

You can continue to be proponent of obsolete technologies, a naysayer and ostrich if you like....no skin off my back...meanwhile while you spend your time affirming your opinions with the marketing types at Hitachi...I'll enjoying the heck out of my 1080P in my FR and looking forward to JVCs upcoming LYCOS 1080P PJ for my dedicated theater. Like I said earlier, a good scaler that scales 1080i to 1080p does improve the image immensly.

[RebelMan]

James

I don't rely on either part time salespeople or marketing "experts" from any manufacturor for my opinions, I rely on my own eyes and ears and what I see where the rubber meets the road at the retail level is an awakening to 1080P HD that has been inspired in part by Bluray's advertising 1080P as the true HD. People are asking questions and people are buying the 1080P sets and forgoing the 720P (1080i) . I just (an hour ago) came from Sound Advice (Tweeter) where the manager, who is a long time friend (and about 30 times more knowledgable in this industry as you and I combined) admitted it was time that even he jump on the 1080P bandwagon. He's buying the same Samsung 6188 DLP set that I bought for my family room.

You can continue to be proponent of obsolete technologies, a naysayer and ostrich if you like....no skin off my back...meanwhile while you spend your time affirming your opinions with the marketing types at Hitachi...I'll enjoying the heck out of my 1080P in my FR and looking forward to JVCs upcoming LYCOS 1080P PJ for my dedicated theater. Like I said earlier, a good scaler that scales 1080i to 1080p does improve the image immensly.

Speak for yourself Jerry, lol. I certainly hope that your salesman/manager is a knowledgeable AV guy, after all he makes his living convincing people of what they really don’t need. In any event, I don’t believe the feedback you are receiving from a couple of retailers is any indication of 1080p’s influence on the market. Have you forgotten what time of year it is? I think the upcoming SuperBowl game is the real driving force behind the surge in HDTV’s (as it is every year) and your trusty DISH-811 will be airing that content in 1080i not p. Any questions the majority of people have about 1080p comes from curiosity, at best, not geniuine interest. Face it, you and I are an exception to the rule when it comes to cutting edge technology. Most people could care a less about T2 in BD. Most people are interested in HD sports programing and/or games.

As much as I respect Samsung’s DLP’s, the HL-S6188 is still using a wobulated 960x1080 DLP chip, not a true 1920x1080 chip which has yet to be introduced in any RPTV. DLP’s do have the advantage of being cheap if making compromises to video performance is your thing. Fortunately, I know better than to subject my eyes to hotspots, off-axis drop outs, spinning wheels and judder artifacts. I’ve been spoiled by SED, a REAL 1080p HDTV. Until you’ve seen one for yourself you haven’t seen the promise land. My trusty Pioneer PDP-6070HD plasma display will have to do until then but I had (have) every intention of getting a SED until Toshiba postponed it, yet again! Blasted.

I advocate 1080p when it is implemented and present correctly. I don’t profess obsolescence but I do condone quality and maturation. I’m just not as delusional as some about the realities of what constitutes TRUE HD. When the right time comes to take the leap I will. 1080i is good enough and it avoids unecessary short stepping. As long as you are a happy tappy its all good. LOL.

Were probably digressing a bit, sorry mods. Nice to see you again Jerry!

[Kevin D]

While a perfectly appropriate conversation, it's getting a little too far off for Club Rotel. If everyone would like to continue discussing 1080p, I'll be glad to move the appropriate messages to a dedicated thread elsewhere in the message board.

Otherwise please start a new thread or move to PM's..

Thanks,

Kevin D.

[Andrew M Ward]

As much as I respect Samsung’s DLP’s, the HL-S6188 is still using a wobulated 960x1080 DLP chip, not a true 1920x1080 chip which has yet to be introduced in any RPTV. DLP’s do have the advantage of being cheap if making compromises to video performance is your thing. Fortunately, I know better than to subject my eyes to hotspots, off-axis drop outs, spinning wheels and judder artifacts.

I advocate 1080p when it is implemented and present correctly.

So true!

HDMI 1.3
&
1080P

Both largly misunderstood... and it just makes people angry when you "correct" them about these things, it's like an addiction to the hype...

CES was it's usual Buzz word factory self

[calmac]

Good question. First major reason: build quality. I've had far too many Rotel hardware failures. Secondly , mostly in favor of Anthem, superior sound quality. (In my own opinion the Sherwood sounds equivalent to Rotel, and sometimes better...for less $$). Third is the Video. Both Anthem and Sherwood have had HDMI switching and audio capabilities in their line (receivers and pre-pros) for nearly a year. Now that there are more than a few HDMI audio/video sources around, this is a significant factor. ( I have 4 myself) External switching devices, even several of those in expensive separate video processors, don't work well and require extensive duplication of wiring to integate the audio back into the pre-pro or avr. Anthem has had 1080P upscaling and multi-channel pcm audio decoding in both it's Statement series and the lower end AVM series for a year next month. As of the time of announcement the RSX 1058 could not decode multi-channel pcm audio. This may probably follow down the road with a "firmware" update so that Rotel can once again boast about their upgradeability, which historically has turned into nothing more than adding features that technologically could have been there from the start, and fixing firmware glitches.

This brings us to my final, and most decisive, Rotel objection; Rotel's upgrade policy, or better stated, policy of obsolecence. Rotel boasts upgradeability but fails to deliver. I like the fact that Anthem AVM20 owers could have the processor replaced to make the unit an AVM 30 and now it can be hardware upgraded again to a state of the art AVM50. Less than 6 months after I purchased my first Rotel pre-pro (the RSP 1066) it was left behind with the introduction of the 1068. Wait and see...the 1098 and 1068 will both be left behind once Rotel introduces their HDMI replacements. Rotel's excuse (that they already exercised with the 1066) will be that the internal processor couldn't handle the load and needed to be replaced. This MAY be acceptable to some at $1K, but not at $2K. I feel more secure spending $6700 on my Anthem Statement prepro, than I did spending "only" $3000 on a Rotel RSP 1098 knowing that for a modest fee Anthem will update my Statement D2 to HDMI 1.3 from 1.2 (even if it means a new processor chip) when the time comes and I won't have to purchase a whole new pre-pro.

The Sherwoods benefit by being cheap enough to just replace: Sherwood's 872 receiver with somewhat equivalent specs to the Rotel 1058, but with "better" 1080P upscaling will only list at $1K... their upper level 972 version with more HDMI switching and control options will list at $1500. In reality the Sherwood Newcastle line's pricing policy is realy more CE than Rotel's entry level Audio/Videophile, however, it's build quality and performance, along with the "elan" of an old time high end audiophile moniker puts it on par with Rotel.

Hi Jerry .I am sorry to hear that you now have such a negative opinion of Rotel as I used to follow your upgrading adventures in Rotel land with interest.
While I can understand your frustration with Rotel's 'Non-upgradeable' upgradeable pre's I do think it unfair to compare Rotel's product to something that costs over twice the price.I have had a number of reliability issues with my Rotel gear too but I don't think they are any worse than comparable product like NAD and most of the issues have been easily resolved or the equipment replaced.
Gordon

[DrJRapp]

I do think it unfair to compare Rotel's product to something that costs over twice the price.

Gordon

I don't hate Rotel....I've just learned there is much better gear out there for not too much more $$.

True, other brands have their issues also, I'd be the last to deny that since it took 3 Anthem D2s to get one that is 100%. This is the cost of being an early adopter I suppose. However, recent experience with Rotel was far worse with 4 out of 10 pieces needing replacement or repair. None of these pieces were newly introduced products either, nor were they anywhere near as complex.

You may have missed the point. The unit that costs twice the price is far more cost effective than one that needs to be totally replaced every two years. And, with that cost effectiveness comes, vastly superior audio performance, XLR and HDMI connectivity and a highly advanced video scaler that on it's own is worth the cost difference. All this in a nice integrated simple to use package, with comparable support. I understand that not everyone can afford (or want to) to invest twice as much, so for those people Rotel has an audience. If they start to push their pricing up too fast, they may well loose that audience.

And, at last look an AVM30 cost about the same as a RSP1098, and the AVM50 with a highly advanced Gennum VXP 1080P video scaler only costs about 20% more.

[Aussie Geoff]

Enough Please !

Everyone,

I'm concious that the above thread is a little garbled - as it has been copied from Club Rotel and there are a few posts that bravely try to get back to the original topic which was the announcement of a new Rotel Reciever the RSX-1058... However I have kept in all posts since Dr Rapp started the off topic items (and others joined in). So enjoy posting re the 1080i vs 1080p debate and the other HT related issues you all had fun with !

Geoff

[peterS]

Speak for yourself Jerry, lol. I certainly hope that your salesman/manager is a knowledgeable AV guy, after all he makes his living convincing people of what they really don’t need. In any event, I don’t believe the feedback you are receiving from a couple of retailers is any indication of 1080p’s influence on the market. Have you forgotten what time of year it is? I think the upcoming SuperBowl game is the real driving force behind the surge in HDTV’s (as it is every year) and your trusty DISH-811 will be airing that content in 1080i not p. Any questions the majority of people have about 1080p comes from curiosity, at best, not geniuine interest. Face it, you and I are an exception to the rule when it comes to cutting edge technology. Most people could care a less about T2 in BD. Most people are interested in HD sports programing and/or games.

As much as I respect Samsung’s DLP’s, the HL-S6188 is still using a wobulated 960x1080 DLP chip, not a true 1920x1080 chip which has yet to be introduced in any RPTV. DLP’s do have the advantage of being cheap if making compromises to video performance is your thing. Fortunately, I know better than to subject my eyes to hotspots, off-axis drop outs, spinning wheels and judder artifacts. I’ve been spoiled by SED, a REAL 1080p HDTV. Until you’ve seen one for yourself you haven’t seen the promise land. My trusty Pioneer PDP-6070HD plasma display will have to do until then but I had (have) every intention of getting a SED until Toshiba postponed it, yet again! Blasted.

I advocate 1080p when it is implemented and present correctly. I don’t profess obsolescence but I do condone quality and maturation. I’m just not as delusional as some about the realities of what constitutes TRUE HD. When the right time comes to take the leap I will. 1080i is good enough and it avoids unecessary short stepping. As long as you are a happy tappy its all good. LOL.

Were probably digressing a bit, sorry mods. Nice to see you again Jerry!

i dont see what your point is ( I agree that the samsung is one to pass on but after that you loose me)

1080p sets are neccissary to display the 1080i content that most brodcast hd content is. ignorring the fact that most 1080i content looks bad relative to what fox sports is doing with 720p, a 1080p set is a must

are you arguing that 1080p from hddvd is not necissary at this point?
if so id agree
but if you are arguing that a 1080p set is not necissary then im lost

for the above stated reason
1080p processing and display sets are now because 1080i is now

[Lex]

Jerry, there is almost always better gear at higher price points. No matter what point you are at, there's a manufacturer that will let you spend more money. sometimes, it's justified, sometimes it isn't.

However, I would like to establish one fact, that not everyone cares to spend at high end levels, it's all relative to how serious you take this hobby, and how much disposable income you have to put into it or are willing to. So, no doubt, you are probably getting more for your money at higher price points of Anthem than Rotel. But that does not make Rotel a bad value, and fact is, resell value has been pretty darn good on Rotel, the gear seems to sell quickly, thus allowing upgrade paths when equipment is not upgradable. I've been stuck before myself, and currently, Lexicon is offering no HDMI switching upgrade, instead saying "it's just to extensive" to perform it. HUH? Is this not supposed to be the top of the line upgradable high end pre-processor??? They want 3 grand for an upgrade that as best I could tell, only adds room EQ, and installs some outdated sound formats. Big whoop. So, if I want to upgrade to HDMI switching, I have to trade units, or sell and repurchase. Forget that. Forget their bloated overpriced upgrades, I've had it with that approach myself. If I want video switching for HDMI/DVI, I'll do it external to the MC-12. I'll wait for the next behind times sound format update, and pass on the great EQ update for 3 grand. I think I own my last Lexicon. I'm over this never truly being software upgradable. Fact is, their should be free firmware updates, to allow for additional sound formats, etc... That has not happened, my MC-12 is current unless I want to do hardware upgrades starting at 1K and moves to 3K, and that still does not get you to the new Dolby sound formats, what True HD, etc... Customer Service acted like that would be a LONG time coming.

[Ovation]

If a particular model of display in one's budget is 1080p, there is NO reason not to buy one now. In fact, with the abundance of 1080i material and the paucity of 1080i displays, 1080p (all other things being equal--and they rarely are, admittedly) is the way to go.

1080i fed to any digital display will be converted to a "p"--480/720/768/1080. They are ALL "p". 1080i material only required de-interlacing when displayed by a 1080p display--no scaling necessary. All things being equal, that should yield a better picture than one where there is both de-interlacing AND scaling. Now, there are, of course, any number of non-1080p displays that can make a better picture from a 1080i source than some 1080p displays. But that goes to the quality of the display rather than the ideal that 1080p is useless.

So, when not to buy 1080p display?

When a display is small (many say under 50 inches, others say under 42) AND you're sitting beyond the range of your eye's ability to resolve 1080p anyway.

When the choice is between a 1080p with a poor de-interlacer and generally poor video performance compared to a 720/768 display that has good quality parts that are well implemented.

To save money.

When one doesn't care so much about the finer points of video resolution.


I would not choose a display with resolution as the ONLY criterion, or even the first criterion, but, if everything else is equal AND I can afford it, a 1080p display makes sense--given that hi-def discs are at least 1080i AND the majority of HD broadcasts are 1080i. If I can avoid scaling the image, I will.

[Andrew M Ward]

1080p sets are neccissary to display the 1080i content that most brodcast hd content is.

This is not correct...





8O

[peterS]

This is not correct...





8O

8O x2
thanks
better wording:
1080p display is needed to realize the full resolution of 1080i broadcasts

[DrJRapp]

However, I would like to establish one fact, that not everyone cares to spend at high end levels, it's all relative to how serious you take this hobby, and how much disposable income you have to put into it or are willing to. So, no doubt, you are probably getting more for your money at higher price points of Anthem than Rotel. But that does not make Rotel a bad value,

You are correct better equipment for more money doesn't make Rotel a bad value. What makes Rotel a bad value is better, more reliable equipment for the same or less money...