High end power amps

[luvdozer]

I would like to try and start a discussion on the added utility of high end power amplifiers. I am interested to hear the opinions of some of the more learned forum members.

I have always felt that speakers are the most important part of any audio system. One could have $20,000 worth of gear, but if it is hooked up to radioshack speakers you wont hear much. I consider my B&Ws a bargain and I am hypnotized by the sound from a set of 5 Dynaudio Contours for $9,600- money well spent as far as I am concerned.

I also can see the value in shelling out significant money for a great pre-amplifier. The image processing, scaling, and connectivity issues alone make it worthwhile to spend big on the brains of your AV experience. It might take a while, but I am stuffing money in the mattress to afford an Anthem Statement D2 for $6700

The part that I have a hard time understanding is how much of a difference there is between power amplifiers. I have no doubt that I would love to have an Anthem P5 ($5000) or even a Krell ($8000) or Theta ($15,000). The question is: assuming I have something like an Anthem D2 and Dynaudio Contours, how much of a difference is there between $5-10,000 5-channel power amps versus a $3000 NAD M25 or a $2000 Rotel RMB 1095?

[kgveteran]

After years of chasing sound i made this discovery. I feel that if you take an amp like a Outlaw M-200 which will power a speaker with about 300 watts mono in 4 ohms. What makes it sound so good is the headroom.Same hold true for speakers.if you are well within the speakers ability.

A wise friend said it's all about having gas in the tank.you don't have to go far to find big fat beefy amps.Adcom makes them Outlaw,ATI. It's that headroom thing that does it for me in my HT.

[dtb300]

I have always felt that speakers are the most important part of any audio system.

Agree here, and I would also add the source. Between these two, they will dictate a majority of the overall sound of your setup. Other parts add or subtract, but these have the most affect. Again in my opinion

I also can see the value in shelling out significant money for a great pre-amplifier. The image processing, scaling, and connectivity issues alone make it worthwhile to spend big on the brains of your AV experience. It might take a while, but I am stuffing money in the mattress to afford an Anthem Statement D2 for $6700

For all the bells and whistles along with the video processing, the D2 is great, but if music is your main concern, there are better sounding Pre/Pro's out there. Again in my opinion and for my tastes - yours may differ. Do not just lock yourself into a D2 or any other Pre/Pro until you have had some serious listening time with them, along with setting your main priorities for the Pre/Pro - features, video, music, scalability, etc.

The part that I have a hard time understanding is how much of a difference there is between power amplifiers.

....I feel that if you take an amp like a Outlaw M-200 which will power a speaker with about 300 watts mono in 4 ohms. What makes it sound so good is the headroom

From listening to many amplifiers over the years, it is not about the quantity of power, but the quality of power from the amp. Headroom is nice, but not the only factor in good sound. If have had 50, 100, 200, and 400 watt "rated" amplifiers and to date, nothing has sounded as good as my Plinius SA-102 which is "rated" at 125 watts. (Remember, ratings are just that, numbers, and not how an amplifier will sound). And to get another step up, when the Plinius is switched into Class A, it is a completely different beast and a superb sounding amp. But again, this is my opinion and tastes.

Each person needs to get out an listen to them at a shop and at home, and make a decision. If a shop will not let you demo this amount of $$$ at home, contact the manufacturer to let them know of the bone-headed shop, then go to another shop until you find one who will work with you.

All components make a difference in a setup. It is not how much they cost, not about all the marketing numbers and rating, but the proper matching or synergy of a complete setup which will give you great sound.

Dan

[LikeCoiledSteel]

I agree with Dan, there is so much more than just power of an amp. When I upgraded from the Outlaw M200 (200watts) to a Krell (250 watts), there was a world of difference. The Krell was faster, tighter, silent black background, more dynamic, fully balanced connections cleaned up the sound better....

I too have heard 100 watt amps best 500 watt amps.
Steel

[luvdozer]

So that's my question - can you hear the difference. I still have a hard time believing that anyone can hear a difference in a blind A\B listening test. On the other hand, I know that I can hear differences between the imaging quality of speakers that my father and his wife cannot hear.

This makes me wonder where the difference comes from. Assuming that the source, pre-pro and speakers are identical - what is it exactly that could make one power amplifier sound faster, tighter, more dynamic or fully balanced.

I just have a hard time letting go of my skepticism on this one.

[dtb300]

So that's my question - can you hear the difference. I still have a hard time believing that anyone can hear a difference in a blind A\B listening test.

To answer your questions. Yes and Yes I did with my amps and the changes I made.

I just have a hard time letting go of my skepticism on this one.

If you cannot hear a difference, why spend more money? Stick with the Rad Shack or what ever amp you like best and use the extra $$$ on music.

This same opinion and direction applies to everything in our audio and other hobbies. If you cannot hear, see or feel a difference between products, purchase the cheaper one - it is really very simple and need not get any more complicated. Other opinions, is just that, an opinion based on their preferences, tastes, and purchasing power/ego. Make your own decision, live with it, and enjoy.

If you are trying to make this thread into a "why people think they are better" then it is a hopeless thread as there is no "absolute" answer.

Dan

[luvdozer]

I think you are misunderstanding my question.

It goes without saying that I wouldnt pay extra money for something that I cannot hear. I havent done A\B comparisons of power amplifiers like i have of products such as speakers. However, as I have listened to many different speakers over the years, I have found it helpful to talk to other audiophiles regarding what to listen for and what they hear from one speaker to the next. In the end, I am the final decision maker of what I purchase, but I like to hear the viewpoints of others as I go through the process of making my decision.

Likewise, I understand that taste varies from person to person. I dont care if anyone else likes the sound of Dynaudio Contours - I do. My question was seeking the views of other members of the forum about what it is exactly that they can hear when it comes to power amplifier A versus power amplifier B and what might be the cause(s) of those differences.

[dtb300]

I think you are misunderstanding my question.

You asked: "The question is: assuming I have something like an Anthem D2 and Dynaudio Contours, how much of a difference is there between $5-10,000 5-channel power amps versus a $3000 NAD M25 or a $2000 Rotel RMB 1095?"

Other than cost, you have other components to consider in the chain along with room acoustics affecting the sound. As you know from listening sessions that a D2 and Dynaudio in one place can sound completely different in another place - room, store, etc. I agree some "generalized" factors or traits may be able to be passed on.

It goes without saying that I wouldnt pay extra money for something that I cannot hear. I havent done A\B comparisons of power amplifiers like i have of products such as speakers. However, as I have listened to many different speakers over the years, I have found it helpful to talk to other audiophiles regarding what to listen for and what they hear from one speaker to the next. In the end, I am the final decision maker of what I purchase, but I like to hear the viewpoints of others as I go through the process of making my decision.

I can understand seeing what others think, but if you do not know the person, or their likes or dislikes, it is sometimes hard to acertain the real informational posts from the "troll" posts. But after reading forums for a bit, there are some people who you get to know in terms of their likes and dislikes for systems and the sound. This could help steer one in the right direction.

There are few people who I trust in terms of passing on their thoughts and feelings about a component. This is a friend of mine and we have been to many audio shows together, along with visiting many audio shops. We have heard "mucho" equipment and over time we understand each other when talking about audio equipment and what we hear and like.

Likewise, I understand that taste varies from person to person. I dont care if anyone else likes the sound of Dynaudio Contours - I do. My question was seeking the views of other members of the forum about what it is exactly that they can hear when it comes to power amplifier A versus power amplifier B and what might be the cause(s) of those differences.

Okay, that clears things up a little more. This posting on forums can be tough as we are not talking face to face and our typed words can be confusing.

But again, what one person may perceive as bright sounding, may be the perfect detail extraction to another. A warmer sounding amp can be too mushy for another. But getting that comparison with same components as yours may be closer, but again, you have all other aspects of the system and a major part - the room - getting into play. And again what is bright to some is not to others, and vice-versa.

To address "why" they sound different gets more into design and application of the design of the electronics used in the amp - and not marketing data. Some immediately think that if it is a Tube Amp it will sound better, some think if it is a Solid State Amp it will sound bright, etc. I have heard both types of amps sound like crud.

I do not worry about how it is made, what components are inside, but the overall sound of the amp and the sound I am looking for. What may sound good to me, may sound bad to you.

To answer part of your question about 5-Channel, Rotel, and the NAD. The only 5-Channel amp I have heard is the Odeon and it was fantastic sounding, but did cost mucho $$$$ and I never got the chance to compare it to other 5 Channel amps side by side. The NAD to me has a fuller, more realistic sound to it (compared to Rotel) - it sound more like real music (but we will never achieve live music sound - only good reproduction of recorded music). I think (again my opinion) it is a great sounding amp for the cost involved compared to others I have heard. The Rotel to me was a bit brighter sounding than the NAD.

All of this sound depends on the setup you are using them with. A warm sounding speaker "may" benefit with the Rotel, whereas a Horn setup may excentuate the brightness. Then the room, other components, etc.

For me your question does not have any specific answers as to WHY, only opinions based on ones perception of sound. One aspect of all of this, is if you see a lot of traffic about a certain component, and the majority is very positive, this could steer you in that direction for listening

Dan

[rick c]

FWIW, I had a sunfire 300x2 amp for 2 days running off a rotel rsx1056 and did not like it at all.The rotel by itself sounded better than with the amp.some have said that sunfire amps are voice matched and after this episode i tend to aggree.I dont have experience with amps so maybe this was an isolated experience.Maybe amps do have a sound of their own.So now i'm looking againMaybe rotel class d rb1072 or other.

[Alaric]

Just my limited experience , but , I also agree with Dan. Good Class A/B amps have X size watts. Class A amps seem to have slightly larger watts. Tube amps seem to have huge watts. I would imagine current is a major deciding factor.
I do know 5000 dcv at 2 amperes will deliver a nasty bite-5000 dcv at 20 amperes may boil the blood in your heart before your eyeballs start smoking. 100 dcv at 50 amps can (and will) parboil your brain before you can say "Hey y'all-watch this!" 110 vac at 20 amps will make Texas Toast of your @$$.
My point being , I've heard 40 watt tube amps that will drive 88db speakers with no problem , and 125 watt SS amps that couldn't drive a Geo. I hardly ever get my little integrated out of Class A (25 rated wpc) and my speakers (91db efficiency) can get LOUD. Quality definitely precedes quantity.

[Azeke]

There will certainly be many varying opinions on this subject matter and many variables involved. Speakers, room acoustics, personal perferences. digital vs analog, etc. etc. etc. I believe in getting the best bang for the buck, now would that include Krells, Mcintosh, absolutely if my money could extend that far. But, really the bottom line is what sounds good to you and not anyone can answer that truthfully but yourself. I try to recommend testing and listening within your home environment with your own equipment. You must also consider "break-in" time if you believe in that, before any serious evaluation can take place. Ratings are merely baselines and not the only factor to be considered in you purchase. Just listen and judge for yourself, after you receive and consider all of the suggestions. After all it's your money you need to be happy with what you choose.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke