HT sub <5K what would you get?

[jayhawk75]

5K for sub what would you get? or would you go with 2?

[peterS]

id go with 2 when ever possible especialy if you are willing to spend that much

no replacement for displacement

[ThomasW]

I'd have a local cabinetmaker build some outrageous custom enclosures using the new really high-end drivers now offered by TC-Sounds..... :T



If you prefer black then consider this....



From Madisound

[Nick M]

I'd also recommend dual subs regardless of what you get, one on each side of the room to minimize localized vibrations and the possibility of one drawing attention to itself. Make sure you equalize it too with a BFD setup, or Velodyne's stand-alone room EQ equipment/software.

DIY = best value, but if you want something turnkey I'd go for...

Dual SVS PB12-Plus/2's ($2400)
Velodyne SMS-1 Auto Room EQ ($600)
Sub Cables from CAT CABLES ($ depends on length)





Use the leftover cash for sonic room treatments (as required), and save the rest for your next upgrade!

[dyazdani]

I agree with Nick on the suggestions. Thomas' drivers there would be killer for a DIY adventure.

You should be able to get a sweet sub setup easily for $5k. I've spent around $2000 including room treatments and it is quite awesome. Most of it is DIY though...

[RobP]

Dual Subs would be a great choice. :yesnod:

[aud19]

What they said! :yesnod: :P

Go for dual subs and DIY if you can, SVS as the next best option with appropriate room treatment/BFD calibration to round it out :T

[ThomasW]

I'm not necessarily suggesting DIY. Sometimes that's simply not an option. However, having a custom built sub is usually an option, and is particularily attractive given the available budget.

[Nick M]

If I had a house and free-reign over a theater room, I'd definetly be buried in speaker books designing a complete DIY theater!

Those infinite baffle setups look amazing!
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Just make sure you set it up right. Proper sound treatments and equalization will make most subs sound like they cost twice as much!

[jayhawk75]

makes for interesting reading however reading always creates further questions. how does one solicit maker for diy? as time doesnt even allow my reading of manuals. svs is a bottom projection sub, so whats better side or bottom? svs 4 12" vs 2 velo 15? of course then the question 2 of the sweet 18" in diy cabs w/ necessary hardware cost?

[Chris D]

As I've posted before, I have dual SVS PC-Ultras, and love 'em. Highly recommended.

[peterS]

id be willing to build them :B

[whoaru99]

Lots of recs for dual subs, and if you can get them to play together nicely, then sure dual subs.

HOWEVER, it's not always very easy to get dual subs to work well together - especially if you don't have complete freedom of placement (difficult for large subs especially) and also some room treatments. It can be an arduous journey to the land of milk and honey.

Not trying to discourage your trek, merely suggesting that integrating a two sub setup is not usually as easy as it sounds.

[Nick M]

Just make sure your subs have continuously variable phase adjustment (not just 0/180 toggles). the SVS PB12-Plus/2 subs have continuously variable phase settings. This makes setting up dual subs incredibly easy (along with a $40 dB meter).

While the added headroom is nice, I like the dual subs simply for the immersive bass. Many reccomend co-locating them for the largest increase in headroom, but I like them on opposite sides of the room to minimize/eliminate localized bass.

I'd say if you own your own home, have full authority over the theater room, and are willing to spend the time necessary to properly research/design/build the speakers, you should go DIY. Pick up some books on speaker building/acoustics/carpentry and get crackin!

If you want something turnkey go SVS. Four efficient 12" drivers, 1800W of juice, and Velodyne's SMS-1 (the main technology that makes their subs sound great) for $3k is going to be damn unbeatable. Throw in some good cables from CAT, some acoustic traps/tiles, and enjoy!

Edit: Oh, and two 12" drivers will easily outperform a single 15" unit. It's a matter of cone area and the amount of air it can push (so I guess throw also plays a role). Anyhoo, you're looking at about 20% more cone with dual 12's. With four 12's you're looking at some serious real estate. Arguably they will also perform better at higher bass frequencies near the X-Over too. This is where guys like Thomas come in handy though (he's actually smart... :lol: ).

[whoaru99]

And, if you have complete freedom to do as you like, then perhaps IB is the ticket for you.

[Azeke]

As I've posted before, I have dual SVS PC-Ultras, and love 'em. Highly recommended.

.

I recommend the SVS PC-Ultras subs to my friends who are looking for that punch, it is a beautiful piece for the money.

I would be scared with two of those monsters, I know that must be a beautiful thing to behold Chris, ;x( .

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[Nick M]

Yeah, I should mention that the upright tube form-factor is an excellent option if you have limited space. I myself use two SVS 16-46 PC-Plus subs in my 1500 cubic foot room and hit a solid 12Hz in their native tune. The 16-46 tubes are the deepest tuned subs SVS offers.

For larger rooms the 16-46 units crap out unfortunately, as they sacrifice alot of headroom to hit those infrasonics. I had to get two to take the load off my first sub during heavy bass scenes.

The "Ultra" line is the premium sub for sure, but according to Ron Stimpson (a head hauncho at SVS), the "Plus" line gets you 90% of the action. The two plus woofers in a PB12-Plus/2 will also leave a single Ultra-driver in the dust. If cost is no object, you could go with dual PB12-Ultra/2's, but dual PB12-Plus/2's will blow away two single-driver PB12-Ultra's or PC-Ultra tubes.

The PB12-Plus/2 is the best bang for the buck sub (and what I recommend to friends & family who have that type of budget).

[ThomasW]

makes for interesting reading however reading always creates further questions. how does one solicit maker for diy? as time doesnt even allow my reading of manuals. svs is a bottom projection sub, so whats better side or bottom? svs 4 12" vs 2 velo 15? of course then the question 2 of the sweet 18" in diy cabs w/ necessary hardware cost?

Look around your area for a local cabinet builder/cabinet maker willing to undertake your project and get a price from him. If you printout some pictures of retail subs he could get a better idea of what you're interested in.

Cost? well $1800 for the 18" drivers, $1500 for a crown K2 amp, $100 for an equalizer and your choice of how fancy you want the cabinets to be...ACI has some nice looking boxes and some pretty nice subs

BTW, It would be handy if you posted some info about the size of the room, distance from speakers to listening position, and expected output levels.

Edit: Oh, and two 12" drivers will easily outperform a single 15" unit.

This is true only of the combined Vd of the 12"s exceeds that of a given 15".....:wink:

[junior77blue]

The "Ultra" line is the premium sub for sure, but according to Ron Stimpson (a head hauncho at SVS), the "Plus" line gets you 90% of the action. The two plus woofers in a PB12-Plus/2 will also leave a single Ultra-driver in the dust. If cost is no object, you could go with dual PB12-Ultra/2's, but dual PB12-Plus/2's will blow away two single-driver PB12-Ultra's or PC-Ultra tubes.

How would you compare [TWO] PB/C12-Ultras vs. [ONE] PB12-Plus/2

Thoughts...comments?

[steve nn]

How would you compare [TWO] PB/C12-Ultras vs. [ONE] PB12-Plus/2

I would go with the dual Ultra's in a heartbeat myself, that's the last SVS option I ran before I moved on. Better yet, dual low tuned 15" driver options utilizing the RL-p or the TC-2000 15" drivers. Oh! when I ran the Ultra's, I ran them in the 16 Hz tune to improve SQ and extension. You would need to drop a dB or two off for the lower 16 Hz tune if it were represented in the graphs.

The graphs are admittedly just a snippet, but they give you a little idea of a 25 and 40ish Hz scene with the Ultra/2 incorporated in. This is U/2 territory being the scenes are above 25 Hz. It's clearly undersized and under powered considering the beefy TV-12 imo.

EDIT> The purple line represents a single Ultra not dual in my situation.

[RobP]

Just another thought, If you dont want to go the DIY route you may want to also look at the Martin Logan Descent, I picked mine up new for $2350, you could go with 2 for your 5K budget and have 6 servo-driven 10" subs testing the limits of your drywall. :twisted:

[Chris D]

Nick, I'm glad you mentioned the phase--that's something I've been asking periodically how to properly dial-in. When you have dual subs with infinitely variable phase, how should those be properly calibrated?

[Sithlord]

I personally was in this position when it came to a one off sub purchase and I imported the SVS B4+ when it was called that. The last sub I will ever buy truelly awesome. Twin Ultras would certainly put a smile on your dial. Happy hunting.

[alebonau]

2 velo DD15s would come in around 5k US ? why would you consider anythign else hehehe

[dyazdani]

Nick, I'm glad you mentioned the phase--that's something I've been asking periodically how to properly dial-in. When you have dual subs with infinitely variable phase, how should those be properly calibrated?

I'm wondering now too... I'm about to have 3 subs. Maybe I can add a phase circuit in somehow?? :huh:

[Nick M]

How would you compare two PB12-Ultra's vs. one PB12-Plus/2?

Well thats kinda pointless. A PB12-Plus/2 is $1200 while a PB12-Ultra is $1200. So a fair price comparison would be two PB12-Plus/2's vs two PB12-Ultra's. In this case the dual plus units would smoke the ultras.

It's kinda like someone offering you something for $1 each or two fer'a buck.

The Ultra units are definetly better than their comparable Plus units, but according to SVS it's only by a margin of 10% or so, for which you pay an extra 75-100%. Diminishing returns. The point is moot when you pair equally priced Plus and Ultra subs anyways. Some say the Ultras are a bit more "controlled" and "clean", but two plus drivers splitting the burden are going to sound much more effortless and relaxed than a single ultra driver (not to mention their larger headroom for serious bass scenes).
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Chris - Turn one sub on and play tones, adjusting it's phase knob until the dB meter at your seat registers it's highest point (this requires two people). Note the gain poistion, and adjust sub two's gain to sub one's. Turn both subs on now and play the tones. Adjust sub two's phase until you register the highest total SPL. Then simply match the subs to the rest of your system with your pre/pro. I think thats right... kinda tired after a long shift. Experiment a bit with your initial gain settings so that the subs match your system with the least amount of pre/pro adjustment. Of course you will have to play with the gain a bit anyways when you equalize the system.
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Having more "subbage" than you need and properly equalizing them (along with a few room treatments) is by far what yields quality sound (in my experience). When the subs are unstressed and your room response is tamed you will get that clarity that is so desirable. I bought a second 16-46 Plus for the increase in clarity it gave me over one sub that was stressed to the max at the 100+dB I like to listen at not to make my system louder.

Note: I found the "Plug-a-Port" tuning to be crap. Buy a sub(s) natively tuned for the frequency response you want (and enough of them for the SPL and clarity you desire).

[dyazdani]

Chris - Turn one sub on and play tones, adjusting it's phase knob until the dB meter at your seat registers it's highest point (this requires two people).

Good tutorial, Nick.

You can do it with one person and a laptop as well. I hook my SPL meter through the laptop and using REQW can make the adjustments myself.

[junior77blue]

I completely messed up the naming...

Let's try this again...

[TWO] PC-Ultra's ($2300) vs. [ONE] PB12-Ultra/2 ($2000)

[steve nn]

[TWO] PC-Ultra's ($2300) vs. [ONE] PB12-Ultra/2 ($2000)

I tried both options and decided on the BMF2/15RL-p trouncer myself.

[dyazdani]

I tried both options and decided on the BMF2/15RL-p trouncer myself.

Yeah, but no one else had to buy a pallet jack for their sub... :lol:

[steve nn]

Yeah, but no one else had to buy a pallet jack for their sub... :lol:

LOL...I'm tellen you it's all about options. If a guy likes a little lighter sub that isn't quite so heavy, well then he can opt for another option. :T Here is one of my all time favorites, it's as big as the screen itself.

[Chris D]

When I got SVS's recommendations to set up my dual PC-Ultras, they recommended plugging one port on one sub, if I remember right, leaving the 2nd sub tuned to the native freq. Don't remember, it was quite some time ago.

[steve nn]

When I got SVS's recommendations to set up my dual PC-Ultras, they recommended plugging one port on one sub, if I remember right, leaving the 2nd sub tuned to the native freq. Don't remember, it was quite some time ago.

Hu! That doesn't sound like something Tom or Ron would say. Doing so would only cause cancellations and negate the purpose of going dual, even if a guy were parting them to widen the sweat spot.

[Nick M]

Yeah, you want them both the same Chris. Personally I think the port plugging is baloney, so I'd recommend running both with no plugs in their native tune. Definetly don't want one with a plug and one without!

[Karma]

Yeah, you want them both the same Chris. Personally I think the port plugging is baloney, so I'd recommend running both with no plugs in their native tune. Definetly don't want one with a plug and one without!

HI Nicholas,
Why not????

Sparky

[Nick M]

From the little I understand, you want the two subs to have as equal a response as possible. This makes placing them in phase with each other much easier, and allows you to minimize wave cancelations.

[Chris D]

Yeah, this came when I met Ron S. (the first "S" in SVS) and toured his house. I'm guessing that his premise was that the subwoofers would be very similar in performance with one port blocked on one sub, but the one that's blocked would have more low range while the native tuned sub would have more power in the main range.

[Chris D]

Hu! That doesn't sound like something Tom or Ron would say. Doing so would only cause cancellations and negate the purpose of going dual, even if a guy were parting them to widen the sweat spot.

(oh yes, and I just had to giggle here... we never want to enlarge the SWEAT spot!) :rofl: