Is my reciever the problem

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  • monk_d_syple
    Member
    • Oct 2005
    • 39

    Is my reciever the problem

    Hello,

    I have a Denon 1905 as receiver. Attached are 5 mono x-a50 music fidelity amps. Attached to these are B&W 604 fronts, 600 center asw 650 sub and 2 LM1.

    My issue, in short. The sound is NOT GOOD! Can't be the speakers, people keep praising these 6 series. Is it therefore my receiver 1905. Is it a rubbish reciever or what? Most B&W people go with Rotel. Is this the direction I should take. My appartment has decent acoustics and is well furnished, the setup was professionally done and double checked. I even upgraded to 604 from 602 5 s3 and 60 to 600. Improvements in stereo, but none in 5.1. I'm really going nuts with this. Bass, bass, bass. Too boomy, dialogue is terrible. Or is is the music fidelity amps?
  • Sim reality
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2005
    • 173

    #2
    In short... Yes the receiver is the weakest link there... If you are running a separate amp try buying just the processor so you aren't paying for amps that you don't need. But the Denon 1905 is a pretty beginner level receiver and it sounds like you don't have a beginner level setup.

    Try Rotel the RSP-1068

    Comment

    • wildfire99
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2005
      • 257

      #3
      What do you mean by "not good"? What's your original audio source? I can't envision a modern receiver/pre trashing the sound so much that it's "not good". If it sounds bad after a 'professional' setup, then the setup was not professional. Did they ask you how you thought it sounded? The client is the boss.

      If it's boomy, it's your room or your processor setup. If dialogue sucks, then in my experience it's your center. Since stereo is good, check phase for the rest of the surround speakers. The monoblocks are underpowered for those 604's IMO, but it's not like that will make or break the audio at regular listening levels.

      Just for fun, this is my idea of how much components affect overall sound quality... Speakers: 50% Amps: 8% Processor: 10% Cables: 2% Source: 10% Room: 20%

      I'd try out a few things. If you have the cash to play with, it wouldn't hurt to swap out the Denon for say, an Outlaw 990. But I would make it a priority to get some room treatments in there first with bass traps, and then try a different amp, in that order. What size/shape is your room?
      - Patrick
      "But it's more fun when it doesn't make sense!"

      Comment

      • monk_d_syple
        Member
        • Oct 2005
        • 39

        #4
        Its just that the sound is very boomy, dialogue in moives is unclear. too much bass in the voices. Did I understand correctly when you said that the music fidelity amps are not powerful enough for the speakers? What effects would this cause?

        Comment

        • SteveCallas
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2005
          • 799

          #5
          The sound is NOT GOOD! Can't be the speakers, people keep praising these 6 series.
          That's a pretty flawed theory. Did you listen to and compare those speakers to anything else before you bought them? Everybody has different tastes in sound preference.

          Comment

          • aud19
            Twin Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2003
            • 16706

            #6
            If the sound is boomy and dialogue is unclear, that's almost definitely your room and/or the setup in your room.

            COMPLETELY improper calibration of the system in the receiver could also cause problems to some degree, but the person who set it up would have almost had to TRY to make it sound bad.
            Jason

            Comment

            • wildfire99
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2005
              • 257

              #7
              I have had the "unclear" dialog issue many times and 75% of the time upgrading the center speaker to something that wasn't mass-produced resolved the problem (the rest of the time the room or positioning just sucked, or the electronics were bad/misconfigured).

              Boominess can also be proximity to the walls, which is why you'd also want to consider room placement of the speakers. The walls themselves will resonate and mimic the bass from the speakers, and cause too much bass. Ditto if the center speaker is sitting on top of a cabinet of some sort that can vibrate.

              The amps I read put out 50 watts. The B&W's I believe I read were around 90db efficient, which means we can safely assume they're actually at least 86db efficient. If you're listening at loud volumes (the kind that lets your neighbors know what you're watching too) then you might have issues with there not being enough power, which can affect sound quality also. But it won't make it 'boomy' or too bassy.

              The Denon 1905 has a tone control, which could also be misconfigured to put out too much bass. Your sub might also be turned up way too far or be too close to a wall/corner and is overcooking the sound on the low end.

              If you don't have one already, a Rat Shack SPL meter and youre receiver's test tones or configuration/setup disc go a long way.
              - Patrick
              "But it's more fun when it doesn't make sense!"

              Comment

              • Clive
                Former Moderator
                • Jan 2002
                • 919

                #8
                Originally posted by aud19
                If the sound is boomy and dialogue is unclear, that's almost definitely your room and/or the setup in your room.

                COMPLETELY improper calibration of the system in the receiver could also cause problems to some degree, but the person who set it up would have almost had to TRY to make it sound bad.
                ..............Or Didn't set the values properly!

                My advice would be to get a pro. in there to properly analyze your situation and make suggestions. It sounds like it could be a tweek and/or processing solution/s. You have the gears they do need to talk to each other properly..
                My 0.002
                CLIVE




                HEY!! Why buy movie tickets when you can own a Theater?

                Comment

                • monk_d_syple
                  Member
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 39

                  #9
                  Hi guys, cheers for the replies. I'm going to try the SPL meter and see what I can get out of it. I might try out the rotel 1068 if the SPL doesn't work. Mind you, it seems that the Rotel has 75wpc. Whereas my MFs are 50w. Mind you the MF are A class. What exactly does this mean? Are the Rotel amps A class too?

                  Comment

                  • Glen B
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 1106

                    #10
                    Originally posted by monk_d_syple
                    Hi guys, cheers for the replies. I'm going to try the SPL meter and see what I can get out of it. I might try out the rotel 1068 if the SPL doesn't work. Mind you, it seems that the Rotel has 75wpc. Whereas my MFs are 50w. Mind you the MF are A class. What exactly does this mean? Are the Rotel amps A class too?
                    You mean the Musical Fidelity amps are class A, not "A class." Audio amplifiers come in different classes of operation, the most popular being class AB followed by class A. Operating class refers to the way the output devices (transistors) are biased. At the bottom is a nice link that explains operating classes in a nutshell. There are class AB amplifiers that operate in class A up to a point then switch over to class AB at higher output, the premise being that distortion artifacts are inaudible at higher volume levels. By the way, although 75W gives you a tiny bit more headroom than 50W (1.5dB) the difference is not enough to be noticeable. It takes a doubling of power (3dB or 100W in your case) to make an audible difference.

                    We discuss the different audio amplifier classes, going over the real meanings behind Class A, B, A/B, G, H, and D and the pros and cons of each design. Which amplifier is best? Read on.


                    Comment

                    • monk_d_syple
                      Member
                      • Oct 2005
                      • 39

                      #11
                      Cheers Glen,

                      I never new this. Another thing that always confused me, was when a friend of mine who considered himself knowledgable in the hifi world claimed that most amp specs (mid range brands) especially power outputs were false. In otherwords, a popular brand i.e. sony, denon, yamaha etc say their receiver runs 100wpc it most likely means about 30 pure watts are actually running per channel. Is this true, does this make sense? Can someone clarify, how to not get fooled by the sales people etc or people who claim to know what they actaully don't know. My friend also said that Rotel, Denon, Yamaha were definitely not high end and more mid range pre amps/receivers. I'm planning to build a high end system soon and don't want to get ripped off. Oh, I no techy just a fan of quality, so please keep it simple.

                      cheers

                      Comment

                      • Glen B
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 1106

                        #12
                        Originally posted by monk_d_syple
                        Cheers Glen,

                        I never new this. Another thing that always confused me, was when a friend of mine who considered himself knowledgable in the hifi world claimed that most amp specs (mid range brands) especially power outputs were false. In otherwords, a popular brand i.e. sony, denon, yamaha etc say their receiver runs 100wpc it most likely means about 30 pure watts are actually running per channel. Is this true, does this make sense? Can someone clarify, how to not get fooled by the sales people etc or people who claim to know what they actaully don't know.

                        cheers
                        There is some truth to what your friend is saying. Don't expect your average mass market multi-channel receiver to deliver rated output (e.g., 100W) into all channels simultaneously, although each channel by itself is [capable] of delivering 100W. The power supplies are usually too undersized to support full out operation of all channels at the same time. In real life however, movie soundtracks will not call for all channels to be driven to high levels simultaneously. Many people, myself included, are quite happy with such receivers powering their HT systems. Just a couple of weeks ago on the Discovery Home Channel I watched a program where a designer and builder of $100,000+ home theaters built a custom theater for a family of four powered by a Yamaha receiver.

                        My systems:
                        Last edited by Glen B; 13 January 2006, 16:22 Friday.


                        Comment

                        • Sim reality
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2005
                          • 173

                          #13
                          Originally posted by monk_d_syple
                          My friend also said that Rotel, Denon, Yamaha were definitely not high end and more mid range pre amps/receivers. I'm planning to build a high end system soon and don't want to get ripped off. Oh, I no techy just a fan of quality, so please keep it simple.

                          cheers
                          You are look at the electronics in perspective of the speakers... The upper range of Denon and Yamaha overlap with the lower end Rotel which will drive you 600 series B&W pretty well (it's just a matter of what you listen to).

                          You get to middle-upper range Rotel you are looking at components what would drive 700 series well and the lower half of the 800 series (again depending on what you listen to).

                          You start getting into the high end 800 series you start looking a Classe, Mark Leverson, Bryston, etc. because the speakers will reveal the weakest link in the system (again this is dependent on what you listen to).

                          So your friend in general is correct in the rotel is not "High End" equipment but you have to ask yourself... Where are you going to draw the line?

                          Comment

                          • monk_d_syple
                            Member
                            • Oct 2005
                            • 39

                            #14
                            Hi cheers again. I would like to go to my B&W dealer and ask him to set me up a ht system. Which I could test. I know that Rotel do decent amps and processors, classe too. I think this is my limit price wise. I know B&W speakers too. What i would like to propose to my dealer is:

                            805s + htm4s (I have a listening area of 4m by 5m)

                            what other similar spkrs (size, quality, price) examples can I look at?

                            Rotel, classé pre amps/processor, power amps.

                            What range of these two should I be looking at?
                            What competitors can I also study?

                            I'm thinking of just having a L R and CTR setup. I really don't see the point of having a full surround now (live in flat). But I enjoy having ctr to focus my ears. Does this make sense? Not obsessed with bass but very obsessed with clarity and quality. Spending limit is about $10000 but would be happy to spend less.

                            Recap

                            looking for L R Ctr

                            Processor/preamp/receiver

                            Power amp

                            Quality is key for me. Listen to a lot of Jazz and rock 50%. Use the speakers for TV and Movies 50% (dialogue is key over explosions etc)

                            Your input is welcomed and appreciated

                            Comment

                            • wildfire99
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2005
                              • 257

                              #15
                              Originally posted by monk_d_syple
                              What competitors can I also study?
                              I still like my Halo amp/Anthem pre/pro combination. Not that I'm a real afficionado of high-end equipment, but they don't do anything wrong that I can hear.

                              In your situation I would actually take a hard look at powering your massive front mains (that you either have or will have) with pro amps. I have to admit, it's a little ghetto sitting alongside nice (read: expensive) components but it seems to get the job done for a lot of people, and it's usually an inexpensive experiment.


                              I really don't see the point of having a full surround now (live in flat). But I enjoy having ctr to focus my ears. Does this make sense? Not obsessed with bass but very obsessed with clarity and quality. Spending limit is about $10000 but would be happy to spend less.
                              Wow, that's not a bad budget.

                              I am the same way; I value clarity and detail over everything. It's why I went DIY, because I couldn't find anything reasonably priced in the same price range that I felt good with (for multi-channel). I just finished rebuilding my old speakers, and man are they sweet. I almost forgot what imaging was all about. The Modula stuff in the DIY forum is certainly up your alley, with a few subs I would definately be happy with that over anything from B+W any day.

                              I would still suggest getting surround for movies. Even in a small room (I had a full 7.1 setup in a space only marginally larger than yours) it makes a difference, to me. Even music can be more involving with a good decorrelation algorithm like Pro Logic IIx. The rears can be tiny, it's just ambiance.
                              - Patrick
                              "But it's more fun when it doesn't make sense!"

                              Comment

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