Which upgrade 1st, sub or mains?

[Linmuse]

Hi everyone,
Just wondering which upgrade will give my system the biggest improvement. B&W-703s or Velodyne DD15.

Current system consists of Rotel RSP-1098 pro, Adcom 555II 200W/ch x 2, Adcom 2535 200W/ch x 1 & 60W/ch x 2, Speakers are B&W-580s front, B&W-550s rear and Krix Centrix centre.

Listening is 60% music 40% movies. Music choice is broard but mainly guitar based rock. Room size is 7m x 5m x 3m.

Unfortunately its not possible to listen to both together at the same premises making a decision more difficult.

Funds wont allow both purchases right now so one will have to wait.
Any advice would be much appreciated.

Regards Linmuse

[bigburner]

Hi Linmuse,

I've just had a look at the specs for your DM580 front speakers. Interesting. What year were they manufactured?

I have a pair of 13-year old DM610i speakers and a pair of 3-year old CDM-9NT speakers. The CDM-9NT has a brighter sound than the DM610i, which is fine if you like brightness, but some people find them a little too intense.

The 703 is the replacement model for the CDM-9NT, and sounds very similar, i.e. comparatively bright compared to my old B&W's. It would therefore be a good idea for you to do an A/B comparison of the 703's with your DM580's to check that this is the sound you want.

If you do this comparison please let us know the results. I am very interested.

If your DM580's are still sounding good I'd be tempted to stick with them and buy the sub. I bought a B&W sub (ASW750) at the beginning of this year, and it has made a huge improvement to my system, particularly when I play music at louder volume. I listen to a lot of guitar-based rock and R&B and blues.

[Lex]

If you feel passion for the new main speakers, then get them. If you don't feel a passion for them, then get the sub now, maybe later a speaker will be out there you do feel real passion for- I think you need to be moved by new mains, and when you find that, you'll know.

Doug

[Shane Martin]

What sub do you have now? If nothing then I think a sub would make the biggest difference given if you watch movies you are missing out on a ton of the low end. You could also consider NOT going the IMHO overpriced Velodyne DD series and go another route and take the savings and put it towards your speakers therefore getting you both.

IMHO, if you are buying new mains, you might as well factor in the center speaker with it because its crucial to tonal match the 3.

[Tha Freak]

I just added a sub to my 5.0 HT system...

All I can say is that I could not (and still can's) believe how much LFE info I was missing...

The first movie I listened to after installation anc calibration was U-571...

...the "Sub Charged" scene was completely different... :E

If you don't have a sub right now...I would say Go for IT!!

[PewterTA]

Since you listen to more music than you do movies. Upgrade your speakers first, then get a sub later down the line.

Getting a sub when doing more music listening... not as worthwhile. I always recommend a good set of speakers first, then a sub...then you can know (from the speakers) what kind of sound you are looking for.

[aud19]

If you already have a sub, and you notice a decent improvement with the 703's over your 580's, then I'd get the 703's. Especially with your bias towards music. I'll echo Shane's comments that you should upgrade the centre as well if you do.

I'll also echo his comments on the Velodyne DD series. They're great subs but they're also $$$. If it was my money I'd go with a SVS and a seperate BFD if you want the ability to "tune" the sub to your room (as the DD's do). IMO that setup will be as good or better and for less money than the Velodyne

[Linmuse]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

If my memory serves me right i bought the 580s around 1986,but dont quote me on that. Dont have the paperwork any more.
They've been a great speaker and still sound great until you listen to something better. You know how it is.
What struck me about the 703s was the clarity and enveloping soundstage that really drew me into the music. Hard to compare different rooms but the 703s were definately brighter which i found refreshing, not over the top. Quite right an A/B test would be ideal. Will get back to you if i can organise this.
Good music always moves me and upon leaving the 703 listening session i definately had a smile on my face and looking forward to the day i could own these. I guess you could call that passion.
I would expect if i added a sub the 580s would lighten up some. By how much i dont know not having tried them with a sub.
Going for a cheaper sub does make sense to me in the short term but i think in the long term i would always regret it. Also where i live in Western Australia we dont have the range of manufacturers available as you do in the US or Europe. It seems to be B&W or Velodyne in the top sub range.
Would love to upgrade the centre at the same time but have heard the matching HTM7 isn't quite up to par as its not a full 3 way. Maybe B&W will correct this in the future. Unless there's other options.

[Shane Martin]

Going for a cheaper sub does make sense to me in the short term but i think in the long term i would always regret it.

Not necessarily so. Keep in mind that there are quite a few cheaper subs that outpeform the big B&W and Velodyne subs.

[aud19]

Going for a cheaper sub does make sense to me in the short term but i think in the long term i would always regret it. Also where i live in Western Australia we dont have the range of manufacturers available as you do in the US or Europe. It seems to be B&W or Velodyne in the top sub range.

I wouldn't say the SVS is cheaper, it's less expensive They make very good quality, very well performing subs that should meet or exceed the performance of B&W or Velodyne for less money Now being in Australia could be a problem there, hopefully some of our other Aussie members will spot this thread and give some local advice... (Hello... Aussie Geoff, Sithlord etc :W )

[Linmuse]

You have all put forward some logical points of view and i thank you all for that. Seems to be an even call at this stage.
No i dont have a sub at the moment but i do know what i'm missing out on having listened to and felt some amazing scenes from movies that absolutely floored me.
Will need to do some more sub listening at dealers before i can make judgement on their ability to lift music.
Doesn't seem right that money should be a facter but thats life unfortunately.
Although i have found a B&W dealer that has a very low profit margin, not much above cost. He's also able to get the Velo's in on order at the same rate. Some consolation.
Think i'll sit back and see if there's any more discussion on the subject.

Thanks again
Linmuse

[RobP]

Not necessarily so. Keep in mind that there are quite a few cheaper subs that outpeform the big B&W and Velodyne subs.

When you say outperform, in what ways are you speaking of?
I own a B&W ASW850, it was exspensive, but as far as sound quality speaking the only sub that I have heard that I liked better was made by Wilson Audio. Now if you are speaking about the pure rumble factor then there are a few subs that outperform it. One that sticks out in my mind is the Martin Logan descent, it will wake the dead in terms of output, but sound quality wise it just didnt do it for me. Just remember there is no perfect speaker or subwoofer it just depends what you like and what you can afford.

[Azeke]

I would purchase the B&W 703's, (and perhaps buy an inexpensive sub, what you budget allows). I believe the 1098 would benefit more from the 703 upgrade. Just my humble opinion.

Good luck

Azeke

[brendon]

Hi limuse,
A fellow Dm580 owner here bought mine in from Sound Advice in Perth in 89 I think.Now running 602s3 in my HT room.If you own a decent set of 3 way floor standers and only really listen to music a sub may make little difference to you evan with the 602's I dont really lack any bass esp in my small room.How ever for a real home theater experience a sub will make a huge difference.
If you want to home trial a sub HSU have a distributer who will ship a sub anywhere in Australia and will only charge $50 or so from memory if you decide to ship it back(this covers freight).
Brendon

[jim777]

I would purchase the B&W 703's, (and perhaps buy an inexpensive sub, what you budget allows). I believe the 1098 would benefit more from the 703 upgrade. Just my humble opinion.

Good luck

Azeke

The cheap sub wouldn't add much to the 703's already very good bass (when broken-in). So I would say use that spare money for buying new music because when those 703's get in, you will want new music :T

[Azeke]

The cheap sub wouldn't add much to the 703's already very good bass (when broken-in). So I would say use that spare money for buying new music because when those 703's get in, you will want new music :T

Inexpensive not cheap, there is a quality difference .

Best regards,

Azeke

[jim777]

Inexpensive not cheap, there is a quality difference .

Best regards,

Azeke

Sorry, please escuse the french man :B

[Azeke]

Il n'y pas de quois, monsieur.

Azeke

[bigburner]

jim777, c'est un malentendu simple.

[jim777]

So what not-cheap "inexpensive" sub would be good especially for jazz (that full bass) and heavy rock (those drums) music?

[Azeke]

What would you consider an "inexpensive" budget figure?

Best regards,

Azeke

[jim777]

What would you consider an "inexpensive" budget figure?

Best regards,

Azeke

Not more than 1k$US. But, it must go "low" enough to make a difference with the already good 703's. The B&W ASW750 that would go well with the 703's is 2400$CAN. I think that it's alot for a sub, at least for now

[Shane Martin]

Jim,
A few options:
1. The AV123 Rocket UFW12: Looks to be a nice sub. No known measurements on it so we're all guessing at this point.
2. HSU VTF3 HO(high output): Canadians get a better deal on this as they have a distributor. Again performance unknown but lots of people love their HSU subs especially the VTF3MKII.
3. SVS PC Ultra or Pb12 Ultra. Impressive subwoofer but it's a tad large for some folks.

I would take PCU against the B&W 850 anyday of the week. The measurements that AV talk has done on this tend to back this up.

Remember that these 3 companies don't have the dealer network and dealer pricing to pay for as they cut that out. This is why they can make better/more bass for less.

[george_k]

jim777,

Actually jim $2400 isn't that bad, I've been shopping around for a sub the last few days here in montreal. The 12" Velodyne HGS-X and SPL subs sell for $2400 and $2200, there isn't that much else around here without resorting to importing something in from down south.

[Azeke]

I concur with Shane, for the price, people seem to love the SVSs and the HSUs.
If aesthetics is not an issue go for the SVS, that would be my personal choice.

Good luck,

Azeke

[Shane Martin]

If aesthetics is not an issue go for the SVS, that would be my personal choice.

They also have piano gloss black like HSU as well as wood finishes like Rocket. In fact the folks who do the rocket speakers and subs also do the SVS finishes for their wood.

If you want output in spades while maintaining the musicality then SVS is great for that but if you can't do the size(they are fairly large), then HSU makes a great alternative as does Rocket and ACI.

[bigburner]

Since you listen to more music than you do movies. Upgrade your speakers first, then get a sub later down the line.

PewterTA, what would you do if most of the DVDs you watch are music ones?

[PewterTA]

I'd still upgrade your speakers... I mean honestly, what more of the audio spectrum are you more concerned in making sound better, 12Hz - 80Hz or 80Hz through 20KHz???

Speakers first, then sub. Especially if you buy a sub that will go with any speakers...you can take a lot longer of a time finding the right sub. Speakers are just more enjoyable (without a sub) than a good sub without good speakers.

[bigburner]

Speakers first, then sub. Especially if you buy a sub that will go with any speakers...you can take a lot longer of a time finding the right sub. Speakers are just more enjoyable (without a sub) than a good sub without good speakers.

I agree with that. I'm just not convinced that the old DM580 front speakers are ready for the scrap heap. I have a lot of respect for elderly B&W speakers if they're in good condition (though the detail of the 703s would be nice...).

I'd still upgrade your speakers... I mean honestly, what more of the audio spectrum are you more concerned in making sound better, 12Hz - 80Hz or 80Hz through 20KHz??? .

I recently watched the Cream reunion DVD at a friend's place (see my review at http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...199#post206199 if you enjoy a good rave), and the most stunning aspect of the audio was Jack Bruce's bass which was greatly enhanced by my friend's REL Storm 5 sub - a very precise, impressive speaker. On Sunday afternoon I watched disc 2 of the Crossroads DVD and I reckon my humble ASW750 helped turn my sitting room into a real concert venue!

As you can tell I particularly enjoy a sub when watching live music DVDs.

[Linmuse]

Update: Managed to do an A/B test between my B&W-580s & the B&W-703s.
I was surprised by how well the 580s stood up after nearly 20 yrs.
Sure there is a definate improvement in clarity & soundstage with the 703s but not to the extent i expected. Even the salesman was amazed at how close they are matched.
Although if I could have run them both off my Rotel/Adcom preamp/amp setup instead of a Denon receiver in store there may have been more of a difference.
I think to get the big improvement in my mains I was looking for i'd have to look at something in the 800 series. Not financially viable right now.
So i'm going for the sub upgrade.
The Velodyne DD15 is what I was going to go for but they offered me the B&W-855 at the same price.
I know there's a lot of fans of the SVS & HSU subs out there but the extra expence of shipping, purchase of room equalisation (built into DD15) and just not being able to see & listen to before purchase scared me off.
Interested to here peoples opinions of the DD15 & 855 subs.

Also on my travels I ran into a electronics designer who builds quality speakers and stereo amps with some suggestions on getting a bit more out of the 580s.
1st- put the mains on spikes. Done & instant improvement, mainly base clarity. Not so boomy.
2nd- he offered to rewire the mains with silver wire replacing the copper which degrades with time and adding gold plated bi-wire terminals for a reasonable price.

Does anyone think this would make a difference to sound quality.
Thanks for any feedback
Linmuse

[brendon]

Hi Linmuse.
I was very interested to hear your about your A/B testing of the DM580 vs 703's.
I saw a pair of DM580 second hand at Frank Prouse Hi FI in Mosman Park several months ago for only a few hundred dollars and almost bought them for spares for my 580's(Suffering from small boy abuse ).
It just goes to prove that spending a decent amount on speakers is good investment as they can give good service for many years.
Still some time away from buying a sub .Which dealer are you buying your B&W from ?
Brendon

[bigburner]

I was surprised by how well the 580s stood up after nearly 20 yrs.

Good old B&W!

Thanks for posting the review.

[Linmuse]

Brendan i've sent you a pm.

[jim777]

2nd- he offered to rewire the mains with silver wire replacing the copper which degrades with time and adding gold plated bi-wire terminals for a reasonable price.

Does anyone think this would make a difference to sound quality.

Depends on how much it would cost you, but if you don't think that your speakers are sounding "harsh", I'm not sure of the benefit of silver and gold over copper.

[bigburner]

I'm not sure of the benefit of silver and gold over copper.

jim777, of course there's a benefit - it makes you feel better because you'll believe that it sounds better!