Still doing sub research (long)

[ajpoe]

I recently read the Tom Nousaine data thread from years ago.

I am considering Paradigm (Seismic 12 or Servo 15 v2) and SVS subs (single Plus/2, Ultra/2 or dual CS Ultras or PC Ultras), or may be I should just stick with what I have. I get 20% off Paradigm from my dealer and we all know about the value of SVS. I wish the Seismic 12 and v2 Servo 15 were included on this list. I will be using them for both music and movies so I want the most accurate subs that will still shake the crap out of me ;-)

Taken from the thread:

• SVS Dual 20-39cs+600w amp 115.5 /20hz~97 / 25hz ~111.8 / 31hz ~120.9(124dB peaks)
• SVS 20-39cs - 109.5 / 20hz~91dB / 25hz~105.8dB
• Paradigm PW2200 - 108 / 20hz~84 / 25hz ~104dB (112.8dB peak)
• Paradigm Servo15 - 107.3 / 27hz
• ATHENA P3 - 97.0 / 25hz~87
• ATHENA P2 - 96.0 / 25hz~87

I don't really know how it works when you add multiple subs into the picture so if you could help, that would be great! I have made quite a few tweaks in my setup with moving the subs around and trying different x-over points over the last few weeks. I have found that I get the best sound and most powerful bass from stacking my subs and putting them on the sub out vs. my one on each channel approach I used to run. I am using an ICBM for bass management of my mains and run the TST full range off the uncrossed LFE track from the processor. I have a corner loaded P3 with a P2 stacked on top of it on the left side and another P3 with a P2 stacked on it on the right side (corner loaded to a big AV cabinet but not the room). I cut my surrounds at 100 hz, the center at 80 hz and the fronts at 60 hz and the subs handle the rest. I guess you're supposed to get about a 6 dB increase whenever you add a second sub. So my P3 with the P2 on it would increase by around 6 dB to about 93 at 25 Hz. So does that mean I can take the numbers for a single P3 and increase them by about ~18 dB since I have all 4 running together? If I can increase by 18 dB across the board, that gives me 114 dB (average?)/ 25hz~105 dB which isn't terribly far off from the dual CS package... I also understand that these measurements are the old Ultra driver and a smaller amp than the current 1000 watt samson. I would even consider getting the Crown K1 and dual CS Ultras or maybe just 2 PC Ultras or if that is complete overkill, going with just a single Plus/2 or Ultra/2 or Seismic 12 or Servo setup. I have a pretty large (4000 cubic feet) area to fill. I really enjoy my setup and think it sounds great, but you know how it is when you get that bug and want to change things around! Please share your thoughts and info about the dB readings with multiple subs.

[Shane Martin]

. I guess you're supposed to get about a 6 dB increase whenever you add a second sub.

4 db increase.

I have a pretty large (4000 cubic feet) area to fill. I really enjoy my setup and think it sounds great, but you know how it is when you get that bug and want to change things around! Please share your thoughts and info about the dB readings with multiple subs.

Funny I have the same size room(4,300 cubic feet but who's counting). I'm leaning towards Dual PC Ultras because of SteveNN(on AVS and HTF) upgraded from 1 PCU to 1 PB12/ultra2 to dual Pb12/ultras and has noticed a nice increase in SPL. This is what I expected though due to more port area. It's not alot better but it's there. IIRC one Servo 15v2 with 20% off is still $2k. I thought the MSRP was $2400 or so USD

[ajpoe]

After looking into the Tom Nousaine thread a bit more, it looks as though they were using dual 20-39CS+s, and not even Ultras. I bet dual PC Ultras would give me a big step up in SPL from my current setup but I also want it to be very clean. My buddy has a Plus/2 and it hits you very hard but I think mine sound cleaner.

I think the v2 Servo is $2200 and the Seismic 12 is $1700 and then 20% off. Dual PC Ultras would be around $2300 and dual PB12 Ultras would be around $2400 in standard black plus shipping costs. Dual CS Ultras with the 1000 watt Samson amp is $2100. I don't know how the CS with amp compares to Dual PC Ultras... if I were to use a BFD and the ICBM, I wouldn't need the crossover and pEQ features that come with the PC series.

The Seismic 12 has great reviews. The Secret's article by Brian Weatherhead said that he felt one Seismic 12 shook him more and didn't bottom like his dual CS Ultra setup when pushed to it's limits. It's only 14" cubed so one or two of those would look nicer IMO than big cylinders. I could swing one now and save some pennies for a 2nd one down the road if I felt I needed it (around $2700 after discount for dual Seismic 12s). One thing I don't understand is that when doing the measurements for one CS ultra vs. one Seismic, the distortion was much higher in the Seismic but he still said it's a very clean sounding sub. The Ultras seem to have a bit flatter response too. Ugh, so many thing to consider! At least I have no WAF to worry about!

[Andrew Pratt]

A couple of points to ponder with the SVS units is that the Sampson amp is pretty loud which I found distracting. Its better then the QSC amp I have now but it was still too loud for me to have it in my gear rack. Personally with that budget I'd be looking at a sealed Tumult based sub. It would be about 22" cubed and soudn great for music and movies. Just another idea to consider and theres plenty of people building them if you didn't want to bother with DIY options.

[DelRay]

Since you can get a really good discount by going the Paradigm route. The Seismic 12 (or 2) might be a good deal. I'm running twin 2200's and have plenty of good deep bass. My ht area is only about 2000 cubic feet though. Twin seismic 12's would be pretty awesome. Probably better for ht than music. I did listen to a servo 15 against a 2200. The 15 did seem a bit tighter but with the price of one servo 15 I got 2 2200's for $200 less. Better for HT use. And still really good for music.

[ThomasW]

Andew is correct, you'll get better performance having a custom sub or subs built, and probably spend no more money.

All retail subs have overly thin cabinet walls to keep the shipping weight low. Having a local cabinet maker build your sub will get you something special.

4 db increase.

One gets +3dB due to acoustic coupling, and an additional +3dB if the amplifier is able to 'double down' with regard to it's power output.

[ajpoe]

Who can I talk to about building me something. I don't think I'd want to build anything from scratch... but I do live about 5 minutes from Parts Express so if they had a nice box already built that I could use instead, I could get the drivers that you guys recommend and probably put them in myself. How are the boxes from Parts Express? Is 3/4 MDF thin by your standards? I see they have 2.0 and 3.0 cubic foot boxes that may be I could put a Tumult in?

[Andrew Pratt]

You're in a great position then! PE has a 3 Cubic foot box that could work with a little extra bracing.

Take one of these and one of these and add a Tumult or another high excursion 15" (like these) and you'd be well on your way. That box could do with some extra bracing added to it but for the cost its a good start. You could also look into having a local cabinet builder put something together for you.

Option B would be to get a pair of these Titanic kits.

[ajpoe]

So the box is $150 and the amp is $400... If I found the correct page, it looks like the Tumult driver is $700 but there are 2 different 15" drivers, which would I want? I'd probably be around $1300 total for all the parts... what sub would this compare to as far as frequency response and SLP? A PB12 Ultra or better? It says it goes down to 17 Hz, would I still get extension in the sealed 3.0 cubic foot PE box? I don't know if I'd need just one or would I need 2 of them?

It looks like the Tumult 12D2 has the same extension and costs a bit less than the 15" drivers. Would I still need the 3.0 cubic foot box if I were to build a pair of these?

[Andrew Pratt]

I keep saying Tumult b/c that's what I used for mine but truth be told if I were building today the 15"s from Ascendant Audio are a much better deal given the closeout specials on now and very similar (both use XBL to lower distortion). The 15" titanic is no slouch either and would be easy for you to get given that PE stocks them.

As for comparison's I think they said the 15" tempest was equal to one of SVS's ultra's...and a Tumult equals 3 tempests so for output a tumult or another similar driver would easily keep up with or outpace a pair of SVS ultra's.

Here's my freq response curve before and after applying some EQ with the BFD. As you can see it has no problems hitting low. I'd suggest that if this is of serious interest we should move this thread to the DIY area and let the pro's chime in on the details but by and large its very very easy to build world class subwoofers at very affordable prices...esp if you don't have to worry about shipping them :B

[ajpoe]

Thanks for the info. I have never read into the DIY subs before so I know nothing about drivers... but I have built things before, such as a nice audio rack etc. I think if I were to get a nice box from PE, I would be handy enough to brace it and add a driver and amp. It sounds easy enough.

I am very seriously interested, especially given that I live so close to PE. Please move this to the DIY section or I can go ahead and start a thread there, which ever you prefer. I'd like to hear more about using the PE box and the various subwoofers. If a Tumult is like 3 temptest based on your comparison above, I may just build one to start with and then ad a seconds if I feel I need more. It sounds as though I may not. Also, I'd like to see how the Ascendant Audio subs compare in performace vs. price. I'm sure the Titanic from PE is no slouch, but if I'm going to do it, I want to do it right.

[Shane Martin]

Latest Nousaine list.

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm

Exodus Audio has a Tumult based sub that was tested by Nousaine on there as well if you want to compare #'s. He has yet to do an Ultra yet. The Energy 12.3 put up similar #'s to the Tumult if that says anything.

As for comparison's I think they said the 15" tempest was equal to one of SVS's ultra's...and a Tumult equals 3 tempests so for output a tumult or another similar driver would easily keep up with or outpace a pair of SVS ultra's

From the #'s I've seen and from the Tumult I've heard, Not even close. I think a Tempest is more inline with their Plus(db12 driver) but not the Ultra driver. If you want #'s on the Ultra, talk to Ed Mullen.

Av talk is also doing a sub comparison but it's blind tested. Interesting results indeed.

[BlazeMaster]

not sure if you already spoke with Erik at SVS about the differences between the ultra and the plus drivers from SVS. The PB12plus/2 and the PBUltra is the value leaders in the entire SVS line. By comparing the drivers side by side, all things equal, I don't think the Ultra driver can go much louder than the Plus, if not actually lower Spl. The plus driver will actually give more output in the 25Hz range and above. Where the Ultra driver shines is, when both the ultra and plus drivers are being pushed to their limits. The Ultra will sound cleaner, smoother and more effortless, when being pushed HARD. Having owned the PB12plus/2 before, I can tell you this for sure, it's really really hard to get it to bottom out. I think my ear drums will explode before it actually bottoms out.

[ajpoe]

I have been back and forth with Ron in several emails about various SVS setups. I am leaning toward a dual sub setup... probably dual PC Ultras or dual PB12 Ultras. My buddy has a Plus/2 and it sounds great, hits you with authority, but I'm not sure if its his bass heavy calibration or what, but I think my Athenas sound cleaner and blend better... they just do not have the impact I want. I am open to that setup, or I was considering Paradigm too. I am just trying to find the best bang for my buck, no pun intended! I appreciate the suggestions of DIY projects because I've never really done any research in that area. If I can build something with relative ease that will outperform the subs I am considering at a similar or less pricepoint, then I am willing to go that route. I mainly want to make sure all the numbers are going to add up before I took on a DIY project though... I'll go ahead and start a thread in the DIY section and see if we can get some of the discreptancies on performace between the various drivers figured out! Once I get a total price on a DIY sub that will meet or beat the subs I'm looking at, I'll be able to figure out if it's a project I'll want to take on or just go the easy route and purchase something already made.

Edit: I felt that I should add the other brands that my dealer carries since the 20% discount is not held to Paradigm only. They also carry B&W, Def Tech, James Loudspeakers, McIntosh, Sonance, Vandersteen and Velodyne. If there is something else I should be looking at then let me know. I only looked at Paradigm since the rest of my system is Paradigm Reference.

[Andrew Pratt]

There's a few things to consider here regarding numbers posted for max SPL's etc. First they are not unlike the SPL competitions in that all they're measureing is volume not quality. The XBL motors used in the Tumult and Ascendant drivers will produce very low distortion throughout its freq range. The only time you'll hear an XBL motor strain is right after its blown the voice coils...that's good but you must handle them with care if you're going to dump megawatts into them Another point to consider regarding the tumult sub on the nousain list is that I couldn't find any specs on what that sub was...ie how big and how much power it used. Obviously a 1.5 cu box with 500 watts isn't going to keep up with a larger box with more power.

As for the SVS subs I find that they are VERY impressive and you really can't go wrong with any of their models. Tom knows what he's doing and makes a good product at a good price. For the DIYer though its fairly easy to outpace them for similar or less money b/c we don't have to worry about some of the issues they do...namely box size and shipping weight. The Ultra driver is amazing but there's no way any 12" is going to keep up with any of the long stroke 15"s...it simply can't move nearly as much air.

[ajpoe]

Ok, so I'd probably be best sticking with a 15" driver. I really like to feel the bass, not hear it... from what I understand is that distortion makes more noise and clean subs are going to be less audible but felt more. The Tumult seems very clean based on what you said. Also, I have started a thread in the DIY section where we can discuss the various drivers and enclosures in more detail. Thanks again for the info!

[ThomasW]

One 'hears' bass at 20Hz and above, one 'feels' bass below 20Hz regardless of the driver.

There are several keys to creating a low distortion sub.

One is using servo-feedback. unfortuately sometimes those circuits cause a 'pumping' noise and they almost always limit the ultimate output.

There are low distortion drivers, the Adire XBL^2 drivers and certain drivers from TC-Sounds have very low distortion.

The easiest way to avoid distortion is to use multiple drivers to create lots of displacement. The means the workload on each driver is very low and so is the distortion. The downside to this approach is cost, and having one very large heavy box containing multiple drivers or several smaller boxes each containing a single driver.

If one has flexibility of placement multiple boxes can be used to advantage, since proper placement can level out overall in-room response. The Harman white paper goes into great detail about this. Most people find it a challenging read.

[ajpoe]

That's probably why I have always preferred multiple sub setups. That's one thing that kinda turned me off about the Seismic 12. The distortion readings were very high, yet the reviewer said it was a very clean sub... I don't understand that because it sounds contradictory.

[ThomasW]

Subs with passive radiators have some of the highest inherent levels of distortion, and IMO some of the worst SQ. The absolute worst designs are bandpass (Bose).

At this particular point in time the Adire XBL^2 designs and the TC-Sounds TC2+ aren't available. Both will be back on the market fairly soon. If you're not in a hurry, I suggest waiting until these are available.

[Shane Martin]

yet the reviewer said it was a very clean sub... I don't understand that because it sounds contradictory.

Makes you wonder about their Paradigm Advertising on their site. You have to give them the benefit of the doubt though.

[Andrew Pratt]

If you're not in a hurry, I suggest waiting until these are available.

What about the close outs from Ascendant...are they still available?

[ajpoe]

I am in no hurry because I would like to sell my subs to have more funding available to build or buy new ones. If there is a rush to get a great driver because they are being closed out, I could probably swing the cash for the driver now and worry about selling my subs later... as long as you're sure I will get the performance I'm looking for from those drivers. Otherwise waiting for the suggested drivers Thomas mentioned is not an issue at all. If I were sell my subs fast, I always have a backup Polk 650 in my bedroom that I can use until I get my new subs up and running.